BC Teachers Getting Screwed...Again

[TimG]

Ontario tried that in the past, and it ended up in a long war that the public tired of - eventually the government was replaced and teachers got back their gains.

The public has been clear that they don't want tax increases. The fact that an irresponsible Ontario government simply ran up a large deficit to buy peace with the unions does not mean that the solution was anything other than a short term fix that will end up creating long term pain.

In the long term the cost of public services cannot increase faster than the growth in the economy. These costs include the cost of paying pensions and other benefits as well as the base wages of teachers. So if economic growth is in the 1-2% range the any raises for teachers will have to be below that. This the a fundamental rule of math that only a fool would ignore.

[Michael Hardner]

The public has been clear that they don't want tax increases.

Yes, fair enough. I don't know enough of the agreement to equate the particular approach to the teachers in Ontario with a $ figure but ok.

[GostHacked]

Dear Parent of the Average Child: One BC Teacher's Confession.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/genevieve-hawtree/bc-teachers-strike-2014_b_5387643.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

Maybe now PCT, gosthacked, overthere and all the other teacher bashers will get a clue about reality.

We are not bashing teachers. I have two in my family. Again, I'll point out that most of your posted articles actually counter your argument. Not sure about this one, I have not read it yet.

[Pct2017]

The public has been clear that they don't want tax increases. The fact that an irresponsible Ontario government simply ran up a large deficit to buy peace with the unions does not mean that the solution was anything other than a short term fix that will end up creating long term pain.In the long term the cost of public services cannot increase faster than the growth in the economy. These costs include the cost of paying pensions and other benefits as well as the base wages of teachers. So if economic growth is in the 1-2% range the any raises for teachers will have to be below that. This the a fundamental rule of math that only a fool would ignore.

Tim, you are right, but for more reasons than you state. Here is another example of the tremendous drain that the public service is to the BC provincial coffers. Although very few civil servants are aware of this, there was a world wide recession in 2008. The net effect on pension plans for public sector defined benefit plans was massive as anyone would well expect. But, what has not been well publicized is the fact that yet more of our tax dollars have been spent to prop up these plans. Given that this thread is about the BCTF, let us look at them as an example. Back in 2007, taxpayers were on the hook to contribute to the teachers golden pension to the tune of 12.18% of gross salary for each teacher. Sounds like a lot, doesn't it? Well, that rate now sits at 16.13%. Very quietly, the teachers have had their pensions bolstered by 4% at a time when all non-govt employees have had their retirement plans decimated. And btw, teachers will whine that they also fund their pension plan. Well, yes they do, but their rate of contribution is 14%, more than 2% less than the taxpayers contribution.

It totally eludes me why public sector employees still have defined benefit pension plans when the rest of the world has switched to defined contribution plans.

[Pct2017]

Ontario tried that in the past, and it ended up in a long war that the public tired of - eventually the government was replaced and teachers got back their gains. I think that if smart people on both sides of the education labour divide reached out and revised the process, that might lead to (I hate to use this term but it's apt) win-win.Unfortunately, though, too many people have a personal axe to grind and are not pragmatic. They're obsessed with "getting" the teachers, or - on the other hand - the corporate neo-liberal blah blah blah.I know teachers who would concede major advantages - only if major reforms were to happen on the management side as well.Those of you who rail on about teachers need to understand that the worst of them go on to become administration, ie. management - and that's who you're siding with.

The BCTF and governments of all political stripes have been doing battle since the inception of the TF. But, there have been two reports commissioned over the past decade to try to restructure the bargaining process.

In 2004, Don Wright completed a very sweeping set of recommendations that provided for, amongst other points binding arbitration on a point by point basis. The government accepted the report in it's entirety while the BCTF rejected it. So then in 2007, a very renowned labour relations specialist by the name of Vince Ready completed a second report, again with the goal of adjusting the bargaining process. He made four much less sweeping recommendations than the Wright Report. Again, the government stated that they were prepared to accept all four recommendations as binding, but the BCTF rejected two outright and would not accept the other two as binding.

The point of all of this is that change to the bargaining process is only possible if the teachers and their union finally decide to allow change.

As for your comment that all administrators were crappy teachers, well that is just a really weird comment. I really cannot figure out where you are going with that.

[socialist]

The BCTF and governments of all political stripes have been doing battle since the inception of the TF. But, there have been two reports commissioned over the past decade to try to restructure the bargaining process.

In 2004, Don Wright completed a very sweeping set of recommendations that provided for, amongst other points binding arbitration on a point by point basis. The government accepted the report in it's entirety while the BCTF rejected it. So then in 2007, a very renowned labour relations specialist by the name of Vince Ready completed a second report, again with the goal of adjusting the bargaining process. He made four much less sweeping recommendations than the Wright Report. Again, the government stated that they were prepared to accept all four recommendations as binding, but the BCTF rejected two outright and would not accept the other two as binding.

The point of all of this is that change to the bargaining process is only possible if the teachers and their union finally decide to allow change.

As for your comment that all administrators were crappy teachers, well that is just a really weird comment. I really cannot figure out where you are going with that.

I saw pictures from Kelowna that showed a lot of public out supporting teachers. A bridge was full of people supporting the BCTF. I think Clark miscalculated this and it will come back to bite her. Check #bced on twitter to see the excellent support the BCTF is getting from the public. Also, polls are showing the public is in favor of the BCTF. That must upset you PCT.

[socialist]

The BCTF and governments of all political stripes have been doing battle since the inception of the TF. But, there have been two reports commissioned over the past decade to try to restructure the bargaining process.

In 2004, Don Wright completed a very sweeping set of recommendations that provided for, amongst other points binding arbitration on a point by point basis. The government accepted the report in it's entirety while the BCTF rejected it. So then in 2007, a very renowned labour relations specialist by the name of Vince Ready completed a second report, again with the goal of adjusting the bargaining process. He made four much less sweeping recommendations than the Wright Report. Again, the government stated that they were prepared to accept all four recommendations as binding, but the BCTF rejected two outright and would not accept the other two as binding.

The point of all of this is that change to the bargaining process is only possible if the teachers and their union finally decide to allow change.

As for your comment that all administrators were crappy teachers, well that is just a really weird comment. I really cannot figure out where you are going with that.

I saw pictures from Kelowna that showed a lot of public out supporting teachers. A bridge was full of people supporting the BCTF. I think Clark miscalculated this and it will come back to bite her. Check #bced on twitter to see the excellent support the BCTF is getting from the public. Also, polls are showing the public is in favor of the BCTF. That must upset you PCT.

[Pct2017]

I saw pictures from Kelowna that showed a lot of public out supporting teachers. A bridge was full of people supporting the BCTF. I think Clark miscalculated this and it will come back to bite her. Check #bced on twitter to see the excellent support the BCTF is getting from the public. Also, polls are showing the public is in favor of the BCTF. That must upset you PCT.

OK, I know that I should not bother responding, but what the heck. It is a beautiful sunny day here in my part of BC and nothing can go wrong.

Polls, public opinion, twitter feeds, forums such as this one - just how exactly do you propose that any of this is going to affect the recently elected government's position on bargaining with the whiny teachers and their out to lunch union? Do you truly believe that the contract will somehow go to a referendum or plebiscite? Do you think that the government is going to call a snap election over this "issue"? I just do not get what is so compelling to you about perceived public support for the teachers. BTW, if I wanted to bother, I could match you opinion poll for opinion poll that show there is very little support for the BCTF, but again, why bother. It means nothing.

What is very interesting is that the NDP is taking a very silent approach to all of this. Nary a word of support is coming out of their mouths. Even they know a loosing proposition when they see it.

Now for the fun part. Kelowna is not that far from where I live, yet I had not heard anything about protests for the teachers. So, I took the time to Google "Kelowna teachers protest photo" and sure enough there was a photo of people on a bridge protesting. And here was the story:

"When the final bell rings, teachers will gather on the overpass on Highway 97 at 4pm, holding black balloons and picket signs, raising public awareness on what they describe as "the dark cloud hanging over public education.""

So, your "public" once again was a pile of whiny school teachers.

And the date of the story? February 27, 2012.

Jesus Socialist, are you so desperate to believe that teachers are viewed as anything other than whiny, greedy cretins that you are willing to dig up two year old stories and try to pass them off as current affairs? You really need to get a life there buddy.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Pct2017

[Pct2017]

Further to the thought of what would it take to change this very broken relationship between the BCTF and whatever government happens to be in power, here is another thought. The TF should change their own election procedures to one member, one vote. Right now, a very rabid, almost Marxist party (think Socialist only actual grown-ups) control the union and have decreed that it will be more of a political movement than an actual trade union. How do they continue to control the TF? Well, leadership elections are done by local representatives, much like a political party. And the group that runs the TF is very well organized. However, if each member had a vote for the leader, all of that organization would not mean anything as it would then be a democratic process.

A few years back, a moderate from within the TF ran in opposition to Susan Lambert. He ran on the platform that the TF needed to moderate it's behavior and maybe win back some respect from both the public and the government. He lost, but I believe that he lost because the TF had made it impossible for him to win.

Until the BCTF has leadership that acknowledges that they need to step into the current day and conduct themselves more like every other union in the province, there will be no fixing this relationship.

[socialist]

OK, I know that I should not bother responding, but what the heck. It is a beautiful sunny day here in my part of BC and nothing can go wrong.

Polls, public opinion, twitter feeds, forums such as this one - just how exactly do you propose that any of this is going to affect the recently elected government's position on bargaining with the whiny teachers and their out to lunch union? Do you truly believe that the contract will somehow go to a referendum or plebiscite? Do you think that the government is going to call a snap election over this "issue"? I just do not get what is so compelling to you about perceived public support for the teachers. BTW, if I wanted to bother, I could match you opinion poll for opinion poll that show there is very little support for the BCTF, but again, why bother. It means nothing.

What is very interesting is that the NDP is taking a very silent approach to all of this. Nary a word of support is coming out of their mouths. Even they know a loosing proposition when they see it.

Now for the fun part. Kelowna is not that far from where I live, yet I had not heard anything about protests for the teachers. So, I took the time to Google "Kelowna teachers protest photo" and sure enough there was a photo of people on a bridge protesting. And here was the story:

"When the final bell rings, teachers will gather on the overpass on Highway 97 at 4pm, holding black balloons and picket signs, raising public awareness on what they describe as "the dark cloud hanging over public education.""

So, your "public" once again was a pile of whiny school teachers.

And the date of the story? February 27, 2012.

Jesus Socialist, are you so desperate to believe that teachers are viewed as anything other than whiny, greedy cretins that you are willing to dig up two year old stories and try to pass them off as current affairs? You really need to get a life there buddy.

Ahhh, PCT. So misinformed, you are, it's embarrassing. If there was a referendum on the Job Action, I would say around 70% of the public would favour the BCTF. Striking teachers around BC are reporting that they are receiving A LOT of public support. Many students have made signs in support of teachers. Many parents and public are bringing teachers cookies and doughnuts. Sorry this doesn't fit with your slanted, uninformed narrative, but I have to set you straight.

FYI, go to https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=%23bced&src=typd to see the piles of support teachers are getting. You crack me up, PCT, and at the end of this your posts on this thread will make you look like this forum's all time biggest fool.

[Michael Hardner]

Keep it on the facts, people, not each other.

[socialist]

Keep it on the facts, people, not each other.

I've posted facts. the public supports the BCTF. That makes some people angry. Check the twitter feed that I provided for facts, Michael. Look at what real teachers are having to endure. The BC Liberals made a huge miscalculation and they had better admit they made a serious mistake and rectify this fight they picked with the BCTF and teachers who are fighting for students rights.

[Pct2017]

March 8 - According to Socialist:

The public is close to 90% supportive of the teachers in BC. But the teacher bashers will continue to bash ignorantly.

March 27 - According to Socialist:

The courts ruled in favor of the BCTF and from what I'm reading I'd say about 85%of the public is with the BCTF and against the neo-liberals.

May 14 - According to Socialist:

Roughly 75% of BC residents support the BCTF and teachers.

Man, those teachers had better hurry up and settle while they still have Socialist's support. Even he is waffling.

May 28 - According to Socialist:

If there was a referendum on the Job Action, I would say around 70% of the public would favour the BCTF.

Mythical support for the BCTF continues to fall, according to expert pollster Socialist.

[socialist]

May 28 - According to Socialist:

If there was a referendum on the Job Action, I would say around 70% of the public would favour the BCTF.

Mythical support for the BCTF continues to fall, according to expert pollster Socialist.

That's the best you got? Look at the polls. You don't like the fact and you won't admit that the BCTF is winning the PR war. You just can't brin yourself to accept the fact that you are wrong on the whole situation.

[Hydraboss]

Please post links to these polls. I would like to review the data, and therefore your assertions regarding the BCTF support numbers.

Thanks.

[socialist]

Please post links to these polls. I would like to review the data, and therefore your assertions regarding the BCTF support numbers.

Thanks.

Here's one poll. http://thetyee.ca/Polls/2014/05/26/Teacher-Strike-Action/?results=true

[Hydraboss]

http://www.angusreidglobal.com/polls/48983/bc-teachers-strike-parents-support-teachers-over-government-as-job-action-begins/

The online survey, conducted May 23-24, 2014 – as British Columbians prepared for job action in public schools – shows 41 per cent of respondents are most inclined to support teachers in the dispute,

Please note the date as it may be relevant to polling results as the strike action did not occur until May 26.

[Hydraboss]

Here's one poll. http://thetyee.ca/Polls/2014/05/26/Teacher-Strike-Action/?results=true

Thank you. Please post the methodology used and the percentage error.

Here is Angus Reid's that I just posted.

Angus Reid Global conducted an online survey among 804 randomly selected BC adults who are Angus Reid Forum panelists on May 23 - 24, 2014. A probability sample of this size carries a margin of error of +/ - 3.5%, 19 times out of 20. Discrepancies in or between totals are due to rounding.

[socialist]

Thank you. Please post the methodology used and the percentage error.

Here is Angus Reid's that I just posted.

You asked for a poll and I delivered. Sorry it's against what you thought.

[Hydraboss]

Sorry but it's a garbage "poll". It's about the equivalent of a Facebook poll. Unfortunately your assertion has not been proven with any facts of any nature.

[Pct2017]

Hey Socialist, Jim Iker just called and asked me to pass on a message to you. He said would you please switch sides on this debate. He seems to feel they will do better if you side with the government.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Pct2017

[socialist]

Hey Socialist, Jim Iker just called and asked me to pass on a message to you. He said would you please switch sides on this debate. He seems to feel they will do better if you side with the government.

You lie. Why would Jim call you? Anyway, I see you are getting desperate with nonsense.

[socialist]

I've read the comments after this article and roughly 80-90 % are in favor of the BCTF and teachers. More proof that Clark miscalculated the public's opinion.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-teachers-strike-to-continue-next-week-1.2656893

[Pct2017]

You lie. Why would Jim call you? .

He also asked me to pass on to the following message, and I quote: "Son, that is Mr Iker to you. After you finish grade school, you can call me Jim"

Edited May 29, 2014 by Pct2017

[cybercoma]

Sorry but it's a garbage "poll". It's about the equivalent of a Facebook poll. Unfortunately your assertion has not been proven with any facts of any nature.

what makes it garbage?