Snowdon Addresses European Parliament

[bleeding heart]

An introductory statement, followed by a Q&A. And it's quite enlightening.

Many of the criticisms against Snowdon are dealt with here...and the more inflammatory ones are quite nicely exploded.

For example (to paraphrase some of the criticisms)

1. "Snowdon should have tried to go through more official, "legal" channels, before releasing this information."

He did try. He took his concerns and complaints to "more than ten distinct officials, none of whom took any action to address them."

2. "The spying program has, according to President Obama, directly thwarted at least 54 very serious terrorist threats."

Incorrect. An outright lie, actually. "Two independent White House reviews with access to the classified evidence on which this claim was founded concluded it was untrue, as did a Federal Court."

3. "The alleged illegality is disputed by officials."

So is evolution. However, an investigation "performed by the White House's Civil Liberties Oversight Board determined....that [the issues under debate] ha[ve] no basis in law."

4. "It has had no far-reaching constitutional or legal effects that anyone need be overly concerned about."

Hilarious! "Each of these countries [Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, New Zealand, and others] received instruction from the NSA, sometimes under the guise of the US Department of Defense and other bodies, on how to degrade the legal protections of their countries' communications.

5. "No countries' leaders or officials have been strongarmed of as a result of any of this."

"US Government officials....used NATO to ground the Presidential plane of Evo Morales--leader of Bolivia--on hearing that I might attempt to seek asylum in Latin America."

6. The spying is only used to protect citizens from terrorism.

It is used to monitor citizens not under any suspicion, to monitor political dissent and perceived political dissent, up to and including simple disagreements with certain policies; and it is used for economic and financial espionage, sometimes in collusion with unaccountable private entities.

"Australia's Prime Minister was recently "caught red-handed engaging in the most blatant kind of economic espionage, [and] sought to argue that the price of Indonesian shrimp and clove cigarettes was a 'security matter.'"

https://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/03/07-4

Edited March 7, 2014 by bleeding heart

[Moonlight Graham]

Some interesting excerpts:

Do you feel you had exhausted all avenues before taking the decision to go public?

- Yes. I had reported these clearly problematic programs to more than ten distinct officials, none of whom took any action to address them. As an employee of a private company rather than a direct employee of the US government, I was not protected by US whistleblower laws, and I would not have been protected from retaliation and legal sanction for revealing classified information about lawbreaking in accordance with the recommended process.

It is important to remember that this is legal dilemma did not occur by mistake. US whistleblower reform laws were passed as recently as 2012, with the US Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act, but they specifically chose to exclude Intelligence Agencies from being covered by the statute. President Obama also reformed a key executive Whistleblower regulation with his 2012 Presidential Policy Directive 19, but it exempted Intelligence Community contractors such as myself. The result was that individuals like me were left with no proper channels.

Do you think procedures for whistleblowing have been improved now?

- No. There has not yet been any substantive whistleblower reform in the US, and unfortunately my government has taken a number of disproportionate and persecutory actions against me. US government officials have declared me guilty of crimes in advance of any trial, they've called for me to be executed or assassinated in private and openly in the press, they revoked my passport and left me stranded in a foreign transit zone for six weeks, and even used NATO to ground the presidential plane of Evo Morales - the leader of Bolivia - on hearing that I might attempt to seek and enjoy asylum in Latin America.

What is your relationship with the Russian and Chinese authorities, and what are the terms on which you were allowed to stay originally in Hong Kong and now in Russia?

- I have no relationship with either government.

[bush_cheney2004]

Mr. Snowden only indicts his own actions by admitting that he did have legal recourse (multiple avenues) but was not satisfied with the outcome. In his mind, not getting the desired result justified his very illegal actions. Some hero...

[Big Guy]

Daniel Ellsberg was considered a traitor and criminal in 1971. History has proven differently. I reserve my opinion of Snowden until the impartial filter of time has been applied.

[bush_cheney2004]

Daniel Ellsberg did not flee to Russia and his actions played out in Congress and U.S. courts. Ellsberg told Senators that they should be willing to do prison time for their complicity. Snowden ain't that brave.

Regardless of Snowden's intentions, his actions were illegal, and he should face indictment and trial in the United States should he ever return. Maybe he'll beat the rap just like Ellsberg did, because of government misconduct.

Edited March 8, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[bleeding heart]

Ellsberg is of the opinion that Snowdon was right to flee the country. "It's a different America now. He made the right call."

[bush_cheney2004]

Of course Ellsberg feels that way, as to say otherwise ruins the total hero narrative. I have more respect for Ellsberg than Snowden.

[On Guard for Thee]

Of course Ellsberg feels that way, as to say otherwise ruins the total hero narrative. I have more respect for Ellsberg than Snowden.

And do you think that revealing the lie that started the Vietnam war was more criminal that the lie itself?

[GostHacked]

And do you think that revealing the lie that started the Vietnam war was more criminal that the lie itself?

It's called getting thrown a 'Curveball'.

[bush_cheney2004]

And do you think that revealing the lie that started the Vietnam war was more criminal that the lie itself?

Revealing the "lie" wasn't criminal, just the method he used.

[dre]

Obviously good little authoritarians hate anyone that challenges government supremecy. But I think most people recognize that Snowden did uncover behavior by government that most Americans are not comfortable with. Hes probably the most important whistle blower of all time.

[On Guard for Thee]

Revealing the "lie" wasn't criminal, just the method he used.

So telling the lie was OK, revealing it was a crime. A lot of people are dead because of that lie.

[bush_cheney2004]

Meh...most Americans have no idea what their government is up to on many fronts. Miley Cyrus is more important.

[bush_cheney2004]

So telling the lie was OK, revealing it was a crime. A lot of people are dead because of that lie.

Look, you can't just steal classified government documents whenever you feel like it to pursue a noble/personal agenda. And if you do, at least have the balls to face the music for doing so. Ellsberg did....Snowden didn't.

A lot of people are alive because of that "lie" too.

Edited March 8, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[On Guard for Thee]

Look, you can't just steal classified government documents whenever you feel like it to pursue a noble/personal agenda. And if you do, at least have the balls to face the music for doing so. Ellsberg did....Snowden didn't.

A lot of people are alive because of that "lie" too.

Exactly how are people alive that wouldn't be if Viet Nam hadn't happenned. I don't believe I've heard a more ridiculous statement. And you should take the quotation marks off lie. It was a lie. What was criminal was how Nixon used it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Exactly how are people alive that wouldn't be if Viet Nam hadn't happenned. I don't believe I've heard a more ridiculous statement. And you should take the quotation marks off lie. It was a lie. What was criminal was how Nixon used it.

Off topic.....I met plenty of such people...long before your time. "Lie"

[On Guard for Thee]

Snowden is the modern day Ellsberg. Can't stand the heat, get out the kitchen.

[bush_cheney2004]

Great...I await this Ellsberg wannabe's day in court to complete the comparison. He'll need some good attorneys.

[bleeding heart]

The very fact that Obama received some accolades (undeserved, but never mind) for declaring reforms to the spying program suggests that Snowdon has done some good.

Obama wouldn't have made the reforms (whether they're only cosmetic, or more profound) if it weren't for Snowdon's revelations.

[GostHacked]

Obviously good little authoritarians hate anyone that challenges government supremecy. But I think most people recognize that Snowden did uncover behavior by government that most Americans are not comfortable with. Hes probably the most important whistle blower of all time.

I agree with this statement for sure. The fact that Obama did make changes (if we believe that changes did actually happen) means that they felt some pressure from the public. But seems to have been a nice little ploy to ease the public's mind on the issue. If the process was all legit to begin with, then you would not have Snowden doing what he did, and we would not be talking about it.

And it seems that Snowden puts down all the notions of 'going through proper channels', even when he claimed he did. His life is at risk either way.

[Big Guy]

I believe that somewhere down the road, in the not too distant future, a deal will be made between Snowden and the US government. Snowden will come back to the USA, be convicted of some kind of crime and sentenced to some time in jail. Then he will receive a presidential pardon soon after that. The reason, I believe, is that all parties want this story off the front pages.

[Argus]

Ellsberg is of the opinion that Snowdon was right to flee the country. "It's a different America now. He made the right call."

Yes, a different, darker, less free America. Thank God Snowden can henceforth enjoy breathing the free air of Russia.

[Argus]

Obviously good little authoritarians hate anyone that challenges government supremecy.

Says the guy who thinks Vladimir Putin is a heroic champion of freedom and democracy.

[bleeding heart]

Well, Argus, you and I agree that Russia is far down on the list of "freedom" in any meaningful sense.

But since the leadership of Snowdon's own country are hysterical, whining hypocrites on the issue, he doesn't feel safe from persecution at home. Obama is less friendly to whistleblowers even than previous administrations....a low bar to begin with.

[eyeball]

Great...I await this Ellsberg wannabe's day in court to complete the comparison. He'll need some good attorneys.

If your government ever gets it's hands on Snowden the best he'll be able to hope for is an illegitimate extra-judicial tribunal in Guantanamo Bay.

More likely he'd be executed and pushed out of the plane enroute.

Yes, a different, darker, less free America. Thank God Snowden can henceforth enjoy breathing the free air of Russia.

He's probably thankful he can still breath no matter who's air it is.