Snowdon Addresses European Parliament

[dre]

Says the guy who thinks Vladimir Putin is a heroic champion of freedom and democracy.

No I said hes a thug. This is just more of your silly nonsense, and strawmen.

[bleeding heart]

True, so "point of order," as they say. Dre clearly called Putin a thug--twice I think. He wasn't arguing for the decency of the Russian leader.

[bush_cheney2004]

If your government ever gets it's hands on Snowden the best he'll be able to hope for is an illegitimate extra-judicial tribunal in Guantanamo Bay.

More likely he'd be executed and pushed out of the plane enroute.

Nope....it will be handled just like any other traitor spy perp's trial, complete with closed sessions and evidence protection for methods and sources. Snowden will plea bargain as needed, then join the likes of John A. Walker in prison.

Welcome to Fort Leavenworth....hero.

Edited March 8, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[dre]

Nope....it will be handled just like any other traitor spy perp's trial, complete with closed sessions and evidence protection for methods and sources. Snowden will plea bargain as needed, then join the likes of John A. Walker in prison.

Welcome to Fort Leavenworth....hero.

Ya never know! If someone vaguely interested in freedom or liberty or open government gets elected while Snowden is alive, he will get a presidential pardon.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ya never know! If someone vaguely interested in freedom or liberty or open government gets elected while Snowden is alive, he will get a presidential pardon.

Not likely...just ask the "suckers" who thought they were getting that in 2008, including the wannabes in Canada.

[On Guard for Thee]

Don't hold your breath waiting for that, Ted Cruz looms on the horizon! Although the US may be saved from that whack job by dent of the fact he was born in Canada.

[kimmy]

Yes, a different, darker, less free America. Thank God Snowden can henceforth enjoy breathing the free air of Russia.

And?

So the information that he brought to public attention is not worth considering because he picked the wrong country to flee to? Is that the argument?

-k

[kimmy]

Why aren't the people who are licking their lips for Snowden to see trial equally interested in seeing James Clapper get 5 years in prison for committing willful, admitted perjury before Congress?

-k

[kimmy]

But that's always been the strategy of the NSA defenders. Try and make it about Snowden... anything to deflect from the programs themselves, and all the outrageous lies that its defenders have told the public.

-k

[Scotty]

But that's always been the strategy of the NSA defenders. Try and make it about Snowden... anything to deflect from the programs themselves, and all the outrageous lies that its defenders have told the public.

-k

A guy was sent to prison today for hacking into girls computers, activating their webcams, and taking naked pictures and videos of them which he then used to blackmail them.

And you are worried about the NSA having a list of phone numbers you called last year?

[GostHacked]

A guy was sent to prison today for hacking into girls computers, activating their webcams, and taking naked pictures and videos of them which he then used to blackmail them.

And you are worried about the NSA having a list of phone numbers you called last year?

But the NSA has carte blanche and really no oversight or accountability. You and I cannot do it, but the NSA can and they can get away with it.

[GostHacked]

But that's always been the strategy of the NSA defenders. Try and make it about Snowden... anything to deflect from the programs themselves, and all the outrageous lies that its defenders have told the public.

-k

This is a very good point and you have brought it up many times as I have. I am not sure what brain malfunction needs to happen in order to not blame the NSA but instead throw it all on Snowden.

[bush_cheney2004]

The NSA can do whatever it pleases, and even if it was legislatively or judicially limited in doing so, one is foolish to assume restraint would be followed. Legally obtained evidence and intelligence gathering are two very different ideas. From Canada, the concern and impact about the NSA is even more irrelevant.

[kimmy]

A guy was sent to prison today for hacking into girls computers, activating their webcams, and taking naked pictures and videos of them which he then used to blackmail them.

And you are worried about the NSA having a list of phone numbers you called last year?

We already know the NSA and Britain's GCHQ have a massive repository of intercepted webcam footage in their vault; this was revealed just last month.

And there are documented cases of NSA employees and contractors caught using their access to stalk their ex-girlfriends. Who would be in the least surprised if NSA agents spend some private time with their intercepted webcam footage and a jar of lube and a box of tissues in the "research room"?

But that's really beside the point.

To briefly summarize, the argument you are presenting is that I shouldn't be concerned about government surveillance because some sexual predator just got put in jail for doing something creepy. And I'd just like to take a moment to talk about how hilarious that is. I actually can't stop giggling at the idea that "well at least we're not as bad as a creepy internet sexual predator" is now being proposed as a justification for government surveillance.

Actually, it's not really that funny. Actually, it kind of makes me sad. But I still can't stop giggling.

-k

[eyeball]

This is a very good point and you have brought it up many times as I have. I am not sure what brain malfunction needs to happen in order to not blame the NSA but instead throw it all on Snowden.

Sycophantic authoritarian submission.

Your non-conformity has no doubt been reported to the proper authorities.

[Bonam]

To briefly summarize, the argument you are presenting is that I shouldn't be concerned about government surveillance because some sexual predator just got put in jail for doing something creepy. And I'd just like to take a moment to talk about how hilarious that is. I actually can't stop giggling at the idea that "well at least we're not as bad as a creepy internet sexual predator" is now being proposed as a justification for government surveillance.

Actually, it's not really that funny. Actually, it kind of makes me sad. But I still can't stop giggling.

-k

Yeah I was frankly quite amazed at the argument that was being put forward, as well.

[Scotty]

To briefly summarize, the argument you are presenting is that I shouldn't be concerned about government surveillance because some sexual predator just got put in jail for doing something creepy. And I'd just like to take a moment to talk about how hilarious that is. I actually can't stop giggling at the idea that "well at least we're not as bad as a creepy internet sexual predator" is now being proposed as a justification for government surveillance.

Actually, it's not really that funny. Actually, it kind of makes me sad. But I still can't stop giggling.

-k

I guess I was giving you more credit to understand my point without spelling it out. The NSA is not a threat to you. The NSA doesn't give a shit what you do or say or who you do it with or say it to. The NSA doesn't know your name and never will.

But there are legions of hackers out there, LEGIONS of them who definitely bear everyone ill will, who want to steal your money, want to steal your privacy, and want to abuse you. They aren't as technically competent as the NSA but there are a LOT more of them out there, all of whom are easily able to break into your computer, and they're in your city, some probably living close by, and any one of them who decides to have a look at you is way more dangerous to your privacy than the NSA will ever be. But I'll bet you never spared a thought to them and aren't at all worried about it either. Want to bet there aren't people on this web site who don't hack? In terms of the threat to your privacy on the internet, I would say 49.9% comes from google and other official corporate sites, 49.9% come from hackers, and 0.02% at the very most, come from government intelligence agencies. But it's the latter that have you and the other paranoid anti-government types looking nervously out your windows for black SUVs parked there watching you.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Scotty

[On Guard for Thee]

Without at least proprer judicial oversight, your damn right the NSA is a threat. It would take the pablum eating type of naevity to think othrwise. If we just hand over any and all rights to any semblance of privacy, we'll see the Big Brother scenario writ large.

[Wilber]

Snowden has done some good and probably some harm. History will have the final say on him. He is too polarizing a subject for real objectivity right now

[On Guard for Thee]

I did hear snippets of his address and he did say he has lot's more good stuff to be released. We shall see.

[kimmy]

I guess I was giving you more credit to understand my point without spelling it out. The NSA is not a threat to you. The NSA doesn't give a shit what you do or say or who you do it with or say it to. The NSA doesn't know your name and never will.

But there are legions of hackers out there, LEGIONS of them who definitely bear everyone ill will, who want to steal your money, want to steal your privacy, and want to abuse you. They aren't as technically competent as the NSA but there are a LOT more of them out there, all of whom are easily able to break into your computer, and they're in your city, some probably living close by, and any one of them who decides to have a look at you is way more dangerous to your privacy than the NSA will ever be. But I'll bet you never spared a thought to them and aren't at all worried about it either. Want to bet there aren't people on this web site who don't hack? In terms of the threat to your privacy on the internet, I would say 49.9% comes from google and other official corporate sites, 49.9% come from hackers, and 0.02% at the very most, come from government intelligence agencies. But it's the latter that have you and the other paranoid anti-government types looking nervously out your windows for black SUVs parked there watching you.

Your point was clear but remains ridiculous. Dress it up as you wish, but your argument remains what I said it was: "why worry about the government when you're more likely to be a victim of criminals?"

And if we followed that argument to its conclusion we wouldn't be spending billions of dollars fighting "the war on terror" because we're all far more likely to die from traffic accidents.

Your argument fails because it fails to differentiate between things that can be changed and things that can't. "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." We can't go stand on a street corner with a megaphone and shout "All you computer hackers, stop hacking!" Well, we could, but they wouldn't listen. Our government institutions and elected officials, on the other hand, are accountable to us. Theoretically, at least. And wouldn't you know it, just this week Barack Obama, after spending the last 9 months vigorously defending the NSA's programs, announced that "reforms" are in the works. We'll see how that actually pans out, but it illustrates the point.

Here in Canada, we have had no Edward Snowden of our own, and unlike in the United States our media has done little to look into this issue. There's good reason to believe that our government's methods are just as greasy as those used by the NSA, and at least some of that is borne out in Snowden leaks that reference inter-agency cooperation amongst US, Canada, Britain, Australia, and New Zealand, the "Five Eyes".

The line that you shouldn't be afraid unless you've got something to hide is BS. These programs create a massive cookie jar of information, and they create an incentive for lawmakers and law-enforcement agencies to find new and inventive ways to get their fingers into the cookie jar. Create extraordinary powers to fight terrorism, and lawmakers will start expanding the definition of terrorism-- this is already happening, as I've pointed out before.

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

The NSA will be around a lot longer than President Obama. The massive data center in Utah is open for business.

[GostHacked]

Sycophantic authoritarian submission.

Your non-conformity has no doubt been reported to the proper authorities.

Indeed, thinking for yourself seems to be frowned upon these days, as well as critical thinking.

[GostHacked]

Here in Canada, we have had no Edward Snowden of our own, and unlike in the United States our media has done little to look into this issue. There's good reason to believe that our government's methods are just as greasy as those used by the NSA, and at least some of that is borne out in Snowden leaks that reference inter-agency cooperation amongst US, Canada, Britain, Australia, and New Zealand, the "Five Eyes".

The line that you shouldn't be afraid unless you've got something to hide is BS. These programs create a massive cookie jar of information, and they create an incentive for lawmakers and law-enforcement agencies to find new and inventive ways to get their fingers into the cookie jar. Create extraordinary powers to fight terrorism, and lawmakers will start expanding the definition of terrorism-- this is already happening, as I've pointed out before.

-k

I've thrown the word tyranny around a few times, which was met with little fanfare. But it has tipped that way. No longer are you innocent before proven guilty. Now you have to prove you are NOT a criminal.

The article recently that the Senate had given the NSA the middle finger when they were being spied upon. These are the same people who want to spy on us, but they do not want to be spied on. So if THEY are not doing anything wrong, then why so much resistance to the same thing the government wants to push onto the general population? Have they got something to hide? Oh you bet your ass they do. If the NSA spies on the Senate, then the NSA just might uncover it's own illegal directives. That would be a hoot and oh so very very sad.