August1991 Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 And so Putin will walk all over this. Russia isn't going to stop for economic sanctions. This is how the American right will portray this international issue - for partisan reasons. IOW, the American right has turned a Russian invasion of Crimea into an American issue. It's now about America. Not Ukraine, not Russia. This was the logic of my Shirley Valentine quote above. With Americans, left or right, anything that happens anywhere, they turn it into a discussion about them. Well, this is not about America or Obama. As much as I feel uncomfortable defending Obama, Putin in Crimea is not about Obama's supposed weakness. Quote
The_Squid Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 War with Russia isn't an option. Perhaps sanctions and a new Cold War, but only with European buy in. How did GW Bush do with the invasion of Georgia? He did less than nothing. USA is very limited in how they can respond. It will be mostly up to Europeans.... Quote
Smallc Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 And military conflict between the United States and Russia would be terrible. Russia would be utterly helpless in the face of the American war machine....and so they would respond in a way that we'd all regret in all likelihood. Quote
Smallc Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Well, this is not about America or Obama. As much as I feel uncomfortable defending Obama, Putin in Crimea is not about Obama's supposed weakness. I'm not so sure...everyone knows that Obama is weak kneed. Putin knows that no one will even attempt to stop him. Quote
The_Squid Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 I'm not so sure...everyone knows that Obama is weak kneed. Putin knows that no one will even attempt to stop him. No different than 1968 with Czechoslovakia, or Georgia when Bush was in power. There was no "standing up to russia" then and there won't now, at least militarily by the USA. The Europeans are going to need to lead on this situation. Quote
Smallc Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 I'm not saying anyone else would have done anything different. I'm just saying this is another thing for Obama's list Quote
The_Squid Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 I'm not saying anyone else would have done anything different. I'm just saying this is another thing for Obama's list No one could have done anything different, but you blame Obama.... Got it. Quote
Smallc Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Obama is always weak. This only increases that perception. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Not sure why the Ukraine is more President Obama's problem and responsibility compared to others around the world. Obama has officially pivoted to Asia, leaving Europe's problems to mostly Europe. Maybe he's waiting for Canadian "soft power" and "honest" brokered "peacekeeping" to win the day. No impact on 2014 midterm elections, and Romney already lost in 2012 after railing on Putin. The real impact will be on the EU and NATO, which are not American elections. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
ReeferMadness Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 “You just don’t invade another country on phony pretexts in order to assert your interests,” he said. Is Kerry talking about Russia in 2014 or the USA in 2003? It might help if the USA had any moral authority in this matter. International politics is mostly hypocrisy. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 There is no moral authority, just military and economic force. Haiti's democratically elected president found this out in 2004 when Canada hatched a coup plot against President Aristide. Like the Russians in Crimea, Canada's JTF2 was responsible for securing the airport. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
The_Squid Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Is Kerry talking about Russia in 2014 or the USA in 2003? It might help if the USA had any moral authority in this matter. International politics is mostly hypocrisy. Obama was against the Iraq war.... They have gained some of their moral high ground back from the 8 previous disastrous years. Quote
Bonam Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Obama was against the Iraq war.... They have gained some of their moral high ground back from the 8 previous disastrous years. Really? Personally I view it the other way around... what moral high ground America had left, it lost when the extent of its spying on its own people was revealed: the ultimate surveillance state. It will be a long time re-building. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 America has no moral high ground...it has interests. Voters understand this, and act accordingly, depending on their perspective and motives. No matter who is elected to Congress in 2014 or to the presidency in 2016, American interests will follow. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Bonam Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 America has no moral high ground...it has interests. Having a moral high ground or at least a perception thereof is one way to achieve one's interests. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Having a moral high ground or at least a perception thereof is one way to achieve one's interests. Maybe, but it has always been a very thin veneer. The United States began wiring the worlds oceans, land, and skies many decades ago. This is driven by interests and technological development, and always will be. The voting electorate will be more upset if such intelligence gathering was not underway prior to any crisis, like Russians "invading" Ukraine. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Posted March 4, 2014 LOL These are not just their neighbors. The people of Crimea are Russians that got caught on the wrong side of an arbitrary line drawn on a map. Maybe a little research is in order before you condemn millions of people to suffer huh? Well, the line on the map was drawn 65 years ago. Which would indicate virtually none of those people were alive at the time. So do you believe they're still Russians because they're ethnically Russian? And if so would Mexico be justified in invading the US because of all the Mexicans in California and Texas? Would France be justified in retaking possession of Quebec? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Posted March 4, 2014 Actually, Georgia invaded south Ossetia to start with. Bit of a difference. Actually, no they didn't. Stop getting your news from RT. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Posted March 4, 2014 This is how the American right will portray this international issue - for partisan reasons. IOW, the American right has turned a Russian invasion of Crimea into an American issue. It's now about America. Not Ukraine, not Russia. This was the logic of my Shirley Valentine quote above. With Americans, left or right, anything that happens anywhere, they turn it into a discussion about them. Well, this is not about America or Obama. As much as I feel uncomfortable defending Obama, Putin in Crimea is not about Obama's supposed weakness. I think it IS, in one respect. The US has enormous worldwide interests primarily economic and trade, which are all damaged by instability. Its alliances and its military efforts are pretty much all focused on maintaining stability, on keeping the oil flowing from the middle east, on keeping the ores flowing from Africa, on keeping Europe stable so they can buy American products, etc. etc. Crimea by itself means little or nothing. Ukraine, however, means more, because it's a move westward by a hostile and violent criminal regime which will be seen by the Americans as creating instability and threatening American allies (and customers). That will require the Americans to spend more money and time and effort on military matters in order to counter that and ensure the push west doesn't continue. Further, the US is not helped by allowing hostile regimes like Russia to build themselves up bigger and larger. US efforts to counter that are natural and not at all misguided. What is misguided is "looking into Putin's eyes and seeing anything but a ruthless killer. And the problem with having a thoughtful, restrained, academically inclined leader is that when he goes up against a ruthless killer he loses ten times out of ten. To fight ruthless men you have to BE ruthless. And I don't see that In Obama. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) No one could have done anything different, but you blame Obama.... Got it. I think Reagan, for all his faults, would have done things differently. Bush senior might have, as well. Edited March 4, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
WestCoastRunner Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 And the problem with having a thoughtful, restrained, academically inclined leader is that when he goes up against a ruthless killer he loses ten times out of ten. To fight ruthless men you have to BE ruthless. And I don't see that In Obama. Every politician needs to be ruthless and Obama is no exception. However, being ruthless and abuse of power don't necessarily need to go hand in hand. Putin seems to have both of these traits nailed down. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
On Guard for Thee Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Actually, no they didn't. Stop getting your news from RT. Yes they did actually. And I got my news on that one by actually being in Tblisis. Quote
The_Squid Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 I think Reagan, for all his faults, would have done things differently. Bush senior might have, as well. Possibly. But the context is totally different. Cold War... Russia was isolated... Now Russia is part of the G8. This will be a much more European led response than maybe som people are comfortable with after dealing with the USSR as the enemy, rather than a Russia that is integrated into western economies. Obama (USA)'s hands are rather tied in responding unilaterally. Quote
Remiel Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 How? Why? Because that is what an alliance is: a mutual concern organization. What is going on in Ukraine is of vast importance to NATO countries that border on Ukraine. Therefore it is of concern to all of them. Not to mention Ukraine was a possible candidate for inclusion of the alliance. That mere fact is enough to create concern, even if there is no resulting obligation. Quote
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Posted March 4, 2014 Yes they did actually. And I got my news on that one by actually being in Tblisis. Well the news you got was wrong. Russian troops are still there in possession of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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