Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 If it has been ineffectual with holding Israel responsible, then it has even less of a chance of holding Russia responsible. Sanctions won't work on countries the size of Russia. You will need a large group of countries to come together to accomplish that. But as soon as that happens, Europe runs the risk of not having a source for gas and oil, which it seems that Russia is a major source of those two items. We could ship them oil and gas if you guys would only allow a few pipelines to go to the coast. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 The problem is it would be a bluff and Putin knows it. If you ask me, I think we should talk to the Russians and try to find out what they plan to do. If they plan to leave after the situation is resolved like they did in Georgia, I dont think its worth raising much stink about it. They are still in Georgia. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 The thing is Putin hasn't attempted to annex anything yet. Putin saw the violence and instability from the protest clashes in Ukraine and very likely moved troops into Crimea in order to protect what are essentially ethnic Russians, as well as Russian military and other interests that were already there. I was wrong to compare the situation to Kuwait...yet. You're right that Putin may plan to remove troops once the instability is gone, and then it's much ado about nothing. Obama is probably making the right move right now in threatening economic/diplomatic repercussions and not military force. Obviously you get all your news from RT. As has been pointed out in numerous other media (which you don't watch or read, apparently) no one can find any incidents of ethnic Russians being attacked or even threatened. No Russian homes were burned down, no businesses attacked, no villages burned, nor was there any move by mobs of evil anti Russian fascists to drive to the Crimea to attack Russians. You are making excuses for Putin 'protecting' ethnic Russians which were never under threat on the mere possibility that at some point in time they might be -- in some way. As far as instability in the Crimea goes, there was none until Russia caused it and brought out mobs of ethnic Russians to attack buildings and take up arms against their government. But again, you won't see this on RT, of course. Are you Russian by any chance? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 The international community has been extremely easy on Israel, the west especially. Israel illegally occupies foreign territory with military force, continues to build illegal settlements, and has covertly developed nuclear weapons with no inspections or international accountability. Only the US has been on a longer leash since the end of the Cold War. Do you not see the international freak-out on Russia the last couple of days? If you put together a list of the world's worst human rights violaters Israel would probably be at about 83rd place. Yet the west criticizes Israel more than the other 82 combined. And the territories Israel occupies were won after Israel was attacked by the original owners, none of whom are willing to sign a peace treaty with them or even grant them the right to exist as a nation. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) It makes no sense. In this case, I would say the Russians have a legitimate claim over Crimea given the large Russian population and historical facts. I would rather see a referendum than an invasion though. Would you say England has a large claim on Canada given the number of English speakers here? Does France have a legitimate right to invade and take over Quebec? What about Mexico? Does it have the right to invade California and Texas because of all the Mexicans there? Edited March 4, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Possibly... But not necessarily. Its entirely possible that Russia is just trying to protect Russians during uncertain times. They might just leave after like they did in Georgia. Everyone was claiming Russia was going to annex a bunch of territory there as well. Uh, which they did. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Israel ignores international law and UN resolutions at whim, so they're an enemy of peace. International law needs to be followed by everyone for it to work. The rule of law, nobody is above it. States like Iran and N.Korea are considered rogue states, but the US and Israel are rogue states as well. The US and Israel often ignore international law as it suits them, and it undermines international security and human rights. Poor Israel, treated soooo poorly by the world, always a victim. Again, your type ignores reality with Israel. You ignore that all the land they 'illegally' occupy was won in wars others started with them, and that the population there is intransigent, their leaders refusing to either sign peace treaties or to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. You also ignore that Isreal has been under attack since its existence. You have no empathy and no ability, no imagination to begin to wonder what it would be like to know that your small nation, a very small physical nation, is surrounded on all sides by, in essence, ravening mobs of people who hate you. Every year some of those crazed people try to climb over, swim around, dig under, fly over, and somehow get past the walls to just find an Israeli, ANY Israeli, man, woman or child, so they can kill them. Even if they die in the doing! You have no concept of what that would be like and sit back in your lazy, protected world, never having known any kind of violence or threat and criticize them for not being as wishy washy and touchie feelie as you are. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 No it's absolute reality. Lefties always make excuses for dictatorships. Well, at least rightists don't make horrific generalizations. Quote
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Well, at least rightists don't make horrific generalizations. Online, arguments that a civilized world cannot permit countries simply to carve off bits of each other at will were met with the usual hail of false equivalencies — what about the invasion of Iraq, then? What about the 1999 NATO bombing campaign in Kosovo? What about Israel’s “occupation” of the West Bank? George Orwell argued pacifists are the objective allies of tyrants. He probably never imagined they would become their PR reps. Do you think Coyne was generalizing falsely? http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/03/03/andrew-coyne-russia-enabled-by-wests-foreign-policies-of-vacillation-uncertainty/ Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
TimG Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Would you say England has a large claim on Canada given the number of English speakers here? Does France have a legitimate right to invade and take over Quebec? What about Mexico? Does it have the right to invade California and Texas because of all the Mexicans there?I obviously used the wrong words here. What I meant to say that it is plausible that these area would vote to stay with Russia if given a choice and Russia can legitimately argue that they should be given a choice. Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Obviously you get all your news from RT. As has been pointed out in numerous other media (which you don't watch or read, apparently) no one can find any incidents of ethnic Russians being attacked or even threatened ...But again, you won't see this on RT, of course. Are you Russian by any chance? I haven't seen/read not one second from any RT media that I know of. The thing is, we don't know exactly what Putin's intentions are. I'm not saying what he's done is right, read my other posts, he's 100% violated basic international law and his actions are an act of war on the sovereignty of the Ukraine. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 ... The US and Israel often ignore international law as it suits them, and it undermines international security and human rights. Well, if ignoring "international law" is good enough for Canada (e.g. Kosovo, Haiti), then it is good enough for the U.S., Russia, and Israel by golly. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Moonlight Graham Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 If you put together a list of the world's worst human rights violaters Israel would probably be at about 83rd place. Yet the west criticizes Israel more than the other 82 combined. The west also protects and aids Israel more than any other country in the world, including whoever is on your list of worst human rights violators. US gov has given $118 billion in official aid to Israel since its creation and continues at about 3 billion annually (that's only what we know about). Poor Israel, victim of the west! Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Boges Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 I think he means Western Lefties that expect a "higher standard" from a democracy like Israel. Quote
GostHacked Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) Online, arguments that a civilized world cannot permit countries simply to carve off bits of each other at will were met with the usual hail of false equivalencies — what about the invasion of Iraq, then? What about the 1999 NATO bombing campaign in Kosovo? What about Israel’s “occupation” of the West Bank? George Orwell argued pacifists are the objective allies of tyrants. He probably never imagined they would become their PR reps. Do you think Coyne was generalizing falsely? http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/03/03/andrew-coyne-russia-enabled-by-wests-foreign-policies-of-vacillation-uncertainty/ I think you are buying into the partisan division attempt. This is not a left or right thing. Interesting article, he actually says the invasion of Crimea was wrong. You and this Conye guy seem to be on the same side of this 'argument'. And so it is today. It is interesting to reflect on Russia’s long historic and emotional ties to Ukraine, as it is useful to bear in mind its strategic interests in the naval base at Sevastopol. But it is not actually germane. Whatever its motivations or explanations, the issue at the heart of the invasion remains: it is wrong, and it must be stopped. If it is not possible to eject Russia from Crimea, then certainly it must be deterred from expanding its reach further. That’s not only a matter of defending the right of Ukrainians to decide their own future. It isn’t even about Russia, in the long run. It’s about the whole structure of international relations. Edit .. to add this quote from the same article. Just as the consequences of Crimea cannot be viewed in isolation, neither can its causes. Every situation is different — Ukraine is not Iraq or Kosovo or the West Bank or the Sudetenland; Putin is not Hitler or Stalin — but some principles of human affairs are immutable: namely, that opportunism preys on weakness. This is not macho posturing, but logic, informed by history: as it was said in Roman times, Si vis pacem, para bellum (If you want peace, prepare for war). Statecraft is inevitably a test of wills, and every act of a state is a signal either of its will or the lack of it. Edited March 4, 2014 by GostHacked Quote
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 I obviously used the wrong words here. What I meant to say that it is plausible that these area would vote to stay with Russia if given a choice and Russia can legitimately argue that they should be given a choice. I am all for people making choices, however dumb. But they haven't been offered a choice and Putin never suggested they should be given one. No one has proposed a referendum, and any held now, under the auspices of Russian troops would be absurd. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 I am all for people making choices, however dumb. But they haven't been offered a choice and Putin never suggested they should be given one. A similarity with the US invasion of Iraq. What was the choice there? Quote
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 The west also protects and aids Israel more than any other country in the world, including whoever is on your list of worst human rights violators. US gov has given $118 billion in official aid to Israel since its creation and continues at about 3 billion annually (that's only what we know about). Poor Israel, victim of the west! The US has always had the primary motivation of self-interest with Israel. It has long been the only democratic state in the middle of a region where the US and its allies have gotten a lot of their oil from. In addition, the regimes throughout the middle east have, until recently, been mostly anti-American. OF COURSE the US has supported Israel! But the rest of the West is not the US, and Obama is more hostile to Israel than any previous president. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 A similarity with the US invasion of Iraq. What was the choice there? The US is clearly not an autocratic, undemocratic regime like Russia. If it was, and if it was in the habit of holding false elections the people in charge of Afghanistan and Iraq would never have gotten elected in the first place. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) The US is clearly not an autocratic, undemocratic regime like Russia. If it was, and if it was in the habit of holding false elections the people in charge of Afghanistan and Iraq would never have gotten elected in the first place. I was referring to the 'choice' of the Iraqi people with regards to the US invasion of Iraq. Not to mention that the American public did not get to have a say in the invasion of Iraq either. Edited March 4, 2014 by GostHacked Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) Again, your type ignores reality with Israel. You ignore that all the land they 'illegally' occupy was won in wars others started with them, and that the population there is intransigent, their leaders refusing to either sign peace treaties or to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. You also ignore that Isreal has been under attack since its existence. You have no empathy and no ability, no imagination to begin to wonder what it would be like to know that your small nation, a very small physical nation, is surrounded on all sides by, in essence, ravening mobs of people who hate you. Every year some of those crazed people try to climb over, swim around, dig under, fly over, and somehow get past the walls to just find an Israeli, ANY Israeli, man, woman or child, so they can kill them. Even if they die in the doing! You have no concept of what that would be like and sit back in your lazy, protected world, never having known any kind of violence or threat and criticize them for not being as wishy washy and touchie feelie as you are. Neither do you, so get off your high horse. Also, I never said anything about the other players in the middle-east surrounding Israel. I'm not saying Israel is a bad guy while others are good guys, I think every side undermines peace in different ways, and yes I do understand Israel's position and its existential concerns about as much as any non-Israeli whose never been to Israel can. I'm saying, in it's quest for a secure homeland, Israel has engaged in some wrong and illegal actions that undermines middle-east peace, and Israel is also not the "victim of the west" that jbg claims. The part about "peace treaties" doesn't make it legal or legitimate. Israel has occupied and annexed territory it's captured through war (even though it was attacked first, that's irrelevant) and has few if any intentions of giving it back, "peace treaties" or not. These actions are 100% against basic international law and different UN Resolutions. From Wikipedia: The Israeli-occupied territories are the territories occupied by Israel during the Six-Day War of 1967 from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. They consist of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem; much of the Golan Heights; the Gaza Strip, though Israel disputes this and argues that since the implementation of its disengagement from Gaza in 2005 it no longer occupies the territory; and, until 1982, the Sinai Peninsula. The West Bank and Gaza Strip are also referred to as the Palestinian territories or Occupied Palestinian Territory. The Palestinian Authority, the EU,[1] the International Court of Justice,[2] the UN General Assembly[3] and the UN Security Council[4] consider East Jerusalem to be part of the West Bank and occupied by Israel; Israel considers all of Jerusalem to be its capital and sovereign territory. The International Court of Justice,[2] the UN General Assembly[3] and the United Nations Security Council regards Israel as the "Occupying Power".[5] UN Special Rapporteur Richard Falk called Israel’s occupation “an affront to international law.”[6] The Israeli High Court of Justice has ruled that Israel holds the West Bank under "belligerent occupation".[7] According to Talia Sasson, the High Court of Justice in Israel, with a variety of different justices sitting, has repeatedly stated for more than 4 decades that Israel’s presence in the West Bank is in violation of international law.[8] Israeli governments have preferred the term "disputed territories" in the case of the West Bank The first use of the term 'territories occupied' was in United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 following the Six-Day War in 1967, which called for "the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East" to be achieved by "the application of both the following principles: ... Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict ... Termination of all claims or states of belligerency" and respect for the right of every state in the area to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries. Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem in 1980 (see Jerusalem Law) and the Golan Heights in 1981 (see Golan Heights Law) has not been recognised by any other country.[11]United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 declared the annexation of Jerusalem "null and void" and required that it be rescinded. United Nations Security Council Resolution 497 also declared the annexation of the Golan "null and void". Following withdrawal by Israel from the Sinai Peninsula in 1982, as part of the 1979 Israel–Egypt Peace Treaty, the Sinai ceased to be considered occupied territory. Israel unilaterally disengaged from Gaza in September 2005, and declared itself no longer to be in occupation of the Strip. However, as it retains control of Gaza's airspace and coastline, it continues to be designated as an occupying power in the Gaza Strip by the United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly[12] and some countries and various human rights organizations. Edited March 4, 2014 by Moonlight Graham Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 That didn't take long....this thread has officially morphed into another Middle East "dirtfarm" argument. Congratulations. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Moonlight Graham Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 The US has always had the primary motivation of self-interest with Israel. It has long been the only democratic state in the middle of a region where the US and its allies have gotten a lot of their oil from. In addition, the regimes throughout the middle east have, until recently, been mostly anti-American. OF COURSE the US has supported Israel! Yes that's my point. But the rest of the West is not the US. Care to name western countries that have been unfair to Israel? How about Israel's best friend Canada? ...and Obama is more hostile to Israel than any previous president. How has Obama been "hostile" to Israel? Demanding Israel cease building illegal settlements in the West Bank? I'd call that being fair and following international law, not "hostile". Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Bonam Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) That didn't take long....this thread has officially morphed into another Middle East "dirtfarm" argument. Congratulations. Not surprising. A lot of people seem to have a remarkably short attention span for issues anywhere else in the world besides their favorite punching bag. Seriously guys, unfolding crisis in Ukraine vs same old same old in Israel... stick to the Ukraine topic here please, there's already a million dedicated threads on Israel. Edited March 4, 2014 by Bonam Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Not surprising. A lot of people seem to have a remarkably short attention span for issues anywhere else in the world besides their favorite punching bag. Seriously guys, unfolding crisis in Ukraine vs same old same old in Israel... stick to the Ukraine topic here please, there's already a million dedicated threads on Israel. jbg compared treatment of Russia to treatment of Israel (for whatever reason). Also, discussing international law & Israel occupying and annexing foreign territory seems very related to the situation in Ukraine. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.