Smallc Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Russia has illegally invaded Ukraine. Russia has broken more than one international law in the process, and there should be swift reaction (which there wasn't and won't be). How any of this is up for debate is, well, beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 The part about "peace treaties" doesn't make it legal or legitimate. Israel has occupied and annexed territory it's captured through war (even though it was attacked first, that's irrelevant) and has few if any intentions of giving it back, I don't see how you can fail to recognize the difference between attacking someone and stealing their territory, and being attacked, and holding onto the territory so that if they attack you again you won't be fighting in amongst your own people's houses. I don't understand how you can say it's 'irrelevant' because it most certainly is, as it the fact the purported owners of that territory either refuse to sign peace treaties guaranteeing not to attack again, or refuse to even admit that Israel has the right to exist without being attacked. You're writing like a legalistic academic who has no interest in reality, or, for that matter, morality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Not surprising. A lot of people seem to have a remarkably short attention span for issues anywhere else in the world besides their favorite punching bag. Seriously guys, unfolding crisis in Ukraine vs same old same old in Israel... stick to the Ukraine topic here please, there's already a million dedicated threads on Israel. Yes but it's entirely predictable, as Andrew Coyne predicted. :-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Also, discussing international law & Israel occupying and annexing foreign territory seems very related to the situation in Ukraine. No, actually, it doesn't seem the slightest bit related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Russia has illegally invaded Ukraine. Russia has broken more than one international law in the process, and there should be swift reaction (which there wasn't and won't be). How any of this is up for debate is, well, beyond me. The Americans are angry at "place name here" ergo "place name here" is in the right and must be defended. That's really all the thinking there is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 The Americans are angry at "place name here" ergo "place name here" is in the right and must be defended. That's really all the thinking there is. No thats how your mind works, not anyone elses. Thats why you defend the US invasion of Iraq, that resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths, over a pack of trumped up lies about WMDS... But Russia goes into a territory on its own border thats populated almost completely by Russians, and theres almost no casualties, and suddenly its OUTRAGE TIME!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 I can't defend either situation. Frankly, what Russia is doing to a democratic country should scare all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Gentlemen (I believe, here we have ladies too), Thank you for your moral support of struggle of Ukrainian people to be independent from foreign will. Ukraine won't be partioned. There is no large group of population who want partition. There is no language or culture division problems in (the) modern Ukraine. The political spectrum is wide, of course, but extremists are far from being influential. Unfortunately, corruption in top level of power is a problem. A vast majority of population want free and peaceful coexistence within a single country. The Crimean crisis is caused exclusively by Mr. Putin's personal delusions. I would be glad to answer any of your questions regarding the current situation in (the) Ukraine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 I can't defend either situation. Frankly, what Russia is doing to a democratic country should scare all of us. It might also have prevented a lot of bloodshed. And if 75% of the people there want the Russians around then the place probably SHOULD be partitioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-TSS- Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 The US supportede cutting up Yugoslavia into pieces while Russia oposed it. Now it is the other way round with Ukraine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) The west also protects and aids Israel more than any other country in the world, including whoever is on your list of worst human rights violators. US gov has given $118 billion in official aid to Israel since its creation and continues at about 3 billion annually (that's only what we know about). Poor Israel, victim of the west! That is absolutely false and you can keep stating it as it has been over and over again on this forum but its a crock. Why don't you find out what the agreements are with Israel before you call them "aid". This false statement you made has already been discussed ad infinitum by Hudson Jones. You want to recycle it and turn this thread into Israel bashing? Start another thread. Its been beaten to death and repudiated over and over again. You resurrecting it won't make it any more true then when Hudson Jones and Bud ran it up in anti Israel threads in the past. Israel is engaged in agreements with the US where it pays back any money given to it with interest. You would know that if you bothered to look. You would also know that the arrangements Israel has with the US result in employment of thousands of Americans and the exchanges with Israel enable Israel to refine and further develop US technology which is then sold to other countries. That said you are now trying to revise history and make nonsensical comaprisons of Israel and Russia. israel went into Gaza and West Bank to prevent terrorist attacks. It used its citizens as early warning posts for incoming terrorists and a first line of defence. As satellite technology and other on ground listening technology devices were developed as well as small miniture drones the need for humans as front line listening posts has become obsolete. Israel has stated time and time again it is willing to pull back if terrorists are disarmed. It's not about to pull back to expose itself seconds away from terrorists attacking its most populated areas. Russia did not go into the Ukraine to prevent terrorist attacks so for you to suggest that is a crock. Russia feels Crimea belongs to it. It wants the gas and the navy port, no more, no less. The pretense it went in to protect Russian Ukrainians is false. Russian Ukrainians have openly stated that is a crock. No one in the Ukraine was harassing Russians. In fact the Russians have been left alone and Ukrainians are not taking the bait and attacking any Russian citizens. They are far too smart for that.The claim he needs to protect Russian Ukrainians is a blatantly false allegation and as pure and bold a lie as Putin saying today the Russian soldiers in the Ukraine are Ukrainians with old Russian uniforms. Where were you when the Soviet Union collapsed? You seem to have a memory lapse. For some of us we remember after it collapsed the Ukraine once again became an independent nation out from the control of the Soviet Empire. You do remember why Stalin took over the Ukraine and starved over 10 million innocent civilians or did you forget that? You also seem to forget in 1994 the US convinced the Ukraine to give back the 1,000 nuclear missiles it inherited from the former Soviet Empire as well as the aircraft that could have been used to deliver them. In return for that deal Russia signed the Budapest Agreement stating they would not invade the Ukraine. In that agreement Russia promised to respect the independence of the Ukraine and not interfere in any of its internal activities or do anything to sabotage its economy. Go find out how soon after that Russia cut off natural gas delivery to the Ukraine and threatened to do the same to Europe if it interfered. Go find out how the Russian Foreign Security Service tried to kill not one but to Ukrainian Presidents who stood up to it. Where were you when that happened/ Where were you when the Foreign Intelligence Service directly interfered in elections using counterfeit US currency to get certain pro Russian puppets elected including the current leader. Where were you when Russia attacked Georgia? Where were you when it began jamming Lithuanian, Estonian and Latvian telecommunication systems? Why the selectivity with this nation? Putin is using the exact and identical m.o. Hitler did when he invaded Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia, then Austria, then Poland. He is using the pretext of protecting citizens to justify a facist take over. That is what he is a Stalinist-a facist, no more, no less. He is a facist. He cares little about human rights or Ukrainians. This is about power and showing the West they are weak and he will do what he wants. This vacuum has been going on for over 10 years now. As the US bakrupt itself in Aghanistan and Iraq as pay back for throwing the Russians out of Afghanistan Putin representing the old Soviet communist party is back and making it clear openly he considers the US an impotent fool and Europe a bunch of weak and gutless cowards just as Hitler and Stalin once did. The Soviet Communist party is back in power only avoids using that name and the KGB is now renamed Foreign Itelligence Service (external) and Federal Intelligence Service (internal). Putin is doing exactly what Hitler did. As his country's economy has faltered he has turned to war as a way to focus his people off of the Russian economic collapse. The problem is like most Russians he has no clue how to run an economy only a brutal enforcement agency. Economics is not Putin's strength, facist brutality is. He knows how to impose force, period. He has no idea how to run an economy. He has no vision other than to placate the communists and organized criminals in his country acting as a stooge for both. He is dangerous because the sorte into the Ukraine will back fire. The West may have no testacles and certainly Obama is a joke these days on the foreign stage and he will be free to keep crushing people just like Hitler did, but eventually will run out of money trying to support his military expansion no differently than the Soviet Empire did. Russia is running on fumes. It has no sustained economic network to prop the complex logistic support needed for the policing of puppet states. Europe he feels is dependent on Russia for natural gas and so will not dare turn on him. can they though? well gor those of you who sneer at Harper and say he is powerless remember this. Canada has one of the largest natural gas supplies other than Russia. Canada can step in and take over Russian natural gas sales to Europe. Let the bastard Putin is have his natural gas cut off. Sanctions should be used to isolate the facist bastard and for those of you portraying him as some leftist good guy fighting the West you need to get a reality check. This trendy leftist bullsheeyit that says anyone who is anti American is a good guy is absurd. Its as absurd as trying to hjack this thread to blame it on Israel and bash Israel. Its typical though. We can't have any thread without the usual anti American anti Israel clique blame everything on both these countries. Edited March 5, 2014 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 It might also have prevented a lot of bloodshed. And it might not have too...see how that works? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 No thats how your mind works, not anyone elses. Thats why you defend the US invasion of Iraq, that resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths, over a pack of trumped up lies about WMDS... But Russia goes into a territory on its own border thats populated almost completely by Russians, and theres almost no casualties, and suddenly its OUTRAGE TIME!!! I defended the US invasion of Iraq because Iraq was being run by a bloody dictator and I'm all for removing bloody dictators and giving people a chance at something else. I'm perfectly willing to admit that I consider bloody dictatorships to have less rights and legitimacy than other governments, and to also admit I don't care who kills them off or why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 The US supportede cutting up Yugoslavia into pieces while Russia oposed it. Now it is the other way round with Ukraine. The Yugoslavians hated each others guts and were in a multiple way ethnic civil war. The idea they could live peacefully together was outlandish. The Ukrainians HAVE been living peacefully for sixty years now, including the ones who are of Russian ethnicity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 Ukraine won't be partioned. There is no large group of population who want partition. There seems to be a number of people in eastern Ukraine and Crimia who disagree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) To Argus, That number is very small (order of 1%) in Crimea and is practically zero (in percent) for (the) Eastern Ukraine. Without being able to quote or copy and paste text from posts I cannot maintain a normal discussion. Your last response to TSS is very good. This the principal difference between the tragic situation in former Yugoslavia in 1990s and in (the) Ukraine now. Violence in the Ukraine was between corrupted power on one side and people of all groups of society on the other side. This is not an ethnic or language problem. Edited March 5, 2014 by ASIP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 That number is very small (order of 1%) in Crimea and is practically zero (in percent) for (the) Eastern Ukraine. Cite? (good luck with that) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) Gentlemen (I believe, here we have ladies too), Thank you for your moral support of struggle of Ukrainian people to be independent from foreign will. Ukraine won't be partioned. There is no large group of population who want partition. There is no language or culture division problems in (the) modern Ukraine. The political spectrum is wide, of course, but extremists are far from being influential. Unfortunately, corruption in top level of power is a problem. A vast majority of population want free and peaceful coexistence within a single country. The Crimean crisis is caused exclusively by Mr. Putin's personal delusions. I would be glad to answer any of your questions regarding the current situation in (the) Ukraine. Do you currently live in the Ukraine? What's your claim on expertise regarding the Ukraine? Also, welcome to the board. Edited March 5, 2014 by Moonlight Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 Russia has illegally invaded Ukraine. Russia has broken more than one international law in the process, I think everyone agrees on this. and there should be swift reaction (which there wasn't and won't be). How any of this is up for debate is, well, beyond me. Action to punish Russia arguably could have and should have been quicker. But what "reaction" are you talking about? The thing is, NATO lining up tanks and troops on the Poland/Ukraine border to put pressure on Russia could escalate the situation to a level nobody wants, whereas it's pretty clear NATO countries are trying to de-escalate the situation and trying to convince Russia to stand down without brute force...yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 Poor Israel, treated soooo poorly by the world, always a victim. My point is that Russian's invasion is a brazen, unprovoked assault on sovereignty and little is happening besides ritualistic condemnation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 To dre, There are no "cites" possible. This my personal ("expert" - ha-ha) estimate based on tens of thousand of pieces of information. Which is far more realistic than some ridiculous "analyses" of university professors you may find. For all. Today it has to be admitted that there is no classical invasion of Russia in Crimea. It seems like we are dealing with "just" a breach of international law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinydancer Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 I am all for people making choices, however dumb. But they haven't been offered a choice and Putin never suggested they should be given one. No one has proposed a referendum, and any held now, under the auspices of Russian troops would be absurd. With all due respect Crimea is an autonomous state. Parliament removed the sitting government and has set a date for a referendum of autonomy again in light of the recent developments with the coup in Kiev. Wednesday, March 05, 2014 Crimean Parliament Fires Government, Sets Autonomy Referendum By RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service February 27, 2014 Parliament in Ukraine's autonomous Crimean Republic has dismissed the republic's government and scheduled a vote on the peninsula's future.In an extraordinary session on February 27, lawmakers voted that Prime Minister Anatoliy Mohyliov's government had not performed satisfactorily. Lawmakers also approved holding a referendum asking whether Crimea's autonomy from Ukraine's central government should be strengthened. The referendum asks citizens to vote yes or no on the statement: "The Autonomous Republic of Crimea has state independence and is a part of Ukraine on the basis of agreements and accords." http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-turchynov-appeal-calm-crimea-buildings-seized/25278931.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 With all due respect Crimea is an autonomous state. Parliament removed the sitting government and has set a date for a referendum of autonomy again in light of the recent developments with the coup in Kiev. http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-turchynov-appeal-calm-crimea-buildings-seized/25278931.html Good luck, but some folks around here would rather invoke coldwar rhetoric, then actually look at whats going on over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinydancer Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 My point is that Russian's invasion is a brazen, unprovoked assault on sovereignty and little is happening besides ritualistic condemnation. There is a 1997 agreement between the Ukraine and Russia which allows Russia to have up to 25,000 troops in Crimea. I have several sources but I'll give you the one from the LA Times. Of course the US Administration doesn't agree that this makes Putin's move legitimate but Obama and Kerry have been running around strutting like Banty roosters so of course at this point in time they won't admit diddly squat. CIA reportedly says Russia sees treaty as justifying Ukraine moves Updated, 8 p.m., March 3: WASHINGTON — CIA director John Brennan told a senior lawmaker Monday that a 1997 treaty between Russia and Ukraine allows up to 25,000 Russia troops in the vital Crimea region, so Russia may not consider its recent troop movements to be an invasion, U.S. officials said. The number of Russian troops that have surged into Ukraine in recent days remains well below that threshold, Brennan said, according to U.S. officials who declined to be named in describing private discussions and declined to name the legislator. Though Brennan disagrees that the treaty justifies Russia’s incursion, he urged a cautious approach, the officials said. Administration officials have said Moscow violated the treaty, which requires the Russian navy, which bases its Black Sea fleet in Sevastopol, to coordinate all military movements on the Crimean peninsula with Ukraine. CIA reportedly says Russia sees treaty as justifying Ukraine moves - latimes.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinydancer Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) Good luck, but some folks around here would rather invoke coldwar rhetoric, then actually look at whats going on over there. Well I have this tendency to back up whatever I post. I believe that everyone has the right to their own opinions but not their own facts. I love it when people give me links and back up.information. ETA: I should say that our media seems to be a Canuck and American version of PRAVDA from the old days. It's like peeling an onion to get thru the layers of anti Russian hype and get to the truth of it all. Quick aside this looks to be a great board. I just fell into it today. Edited March 5, 2014 by tinydancer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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