GostHacked Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/spy-agency-defends-itself-amid-claims-it-tracked-travellers-using-airport-wi-fi-1.1664333 http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120619/03415419381/canada-has-hidden-microphones-airports-recording-conversations.shtml http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/csec-used-airport-wi-fi-to-track-canadian-travellers-edward-snowden-documents-1.2517881 The latest Snowden document indicates the spy service was provided with information captured from unsuspecting travellers' wireless devices by the airport's free Wi-Fi system over a two-week period. Experts say that probably included many Canadians whose smartphone and laptop signals were intercepted without their knowledge as they passed through the terminal. The document shows the federal intelligence agency was then able to track the travellers for a week or more as they and their wireless devices showed up in other Wi-Fi "hot spots" in cities across Canada and even at U.S. airports. That included people visiting other airports, hotels, coffee shops and restaurants, libraries, ground transportation hubs, and any number of places among the literally thousands with public wireless internet access. The document shows CSEC had so much data it could even track the travellers back in time through the days leading up to their arrival at the airport, these experts say. While the documents make no mention of specific individuals, Deibert and other cyber experts say it would be simple for the spy agency to have put names to all the Canadians swept up in the operation. All Canadians with a smartphone, tablet or laptop are "essentially carrying around digital dog tags as we go about our daily lives," Deibert says. Anyone able to access the data that those devices leave behind on wireless hotspots, he says, can obtain "extraordinarily precise information about our movements and social relationships." But if you are not doing anything wrong, what is the issue.... right? This is getting ridiculous. Each time we hear more from Snowden the more we know and understand the scope of the spying and the type of spying that our security agencies are doing. Not to mention the mics in the airports where they can watch and listen to your conversations. Facial recognition ect. Edited January 31, 2014 by GostHacked Quote
Argus Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 If you're not doing anything wrong what IS the issue? Hey, CSEC, feel free to track my movements. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 It seems that any pushback that comes from 'the' public on this will arrive at government through political channels. As such, I don't think there has been enough noise from 'the' public on this to force the government to do something about it yet. Certainly if there were some kind of validated body that focused on these issues, that had an elevated voice including members of a sub-public, if you will, as well as a clear purpose then that would help. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
guyser Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 Phew...didnt turn on my wifi at Pearson so no worries. I did at Pudong airport (Shanghai) but the Chinese govt would never do the same I can safely say. Maybe Australians did when there Quote
GostHacked Posted January 31, 2014 Author Report Posted January 31, 2014 It seems that any pushback that comes from 'the' public on this will arrive at government through political channels. As such, I don't think there has been enough noise from 'the' public on this to force the government to do something about it yet. Certainly if there were some kind of validated body that focused on these issues, that had an elevated voice including members of a sub-public, if you will, as well as a clear purpose then that would help. Thing is how can we combat against this when we have no idea how widespread these operations are? And when people do call out this kind of thing they are treated negatively. Like how some bash Snowden for the crap the NSA is continuing. We are just now understanding what is happening in Canada and how widespread it is here. Guyser2 are you being sarcastic? China does track that. Way more than what we see here in NA. Quote
guyser Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 Guyser2 are you being sarcastic? China does track that. Way more than what we see here in NA. I was. No one should think wifi is anything but an open loop for snoopers Quote
eyeball Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) If you're not doing anything wrong what IS the issue? That the state does things that are wrong, like routinely lying to us about what it's doing. Hey, CSEC, feel free to track my movements. Ironically I probably wouldn't have too many issues with someone monitoring for signs of overt sycophancy, especially in government workers. Edited January 31, 2014 by eyeball Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
GostHacked Posted January 31, 2014 Author Report Posted January 31, 2014 Guyser2 are you being sarcastic? China does track that. Way more than what we see here in NA. I was. No one should think wifi is anything but an open loop for snoopers Roger that!! Quote
GostHacked Posted January 31, 2014 Author Report Posted January 31, 2014 That the state does things that are wrong, like routinely lying to us about what it's doing. Yes and this is said to be completely illegal. Where was the oversight for this? Quote
Argus Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 That the state does things that are wrong, like routinely lying to us about what it's doing. I don't see what they're doing as wrong. It harms no one except criminals. Ironically I probably wouldn't have too many issues with someone monitoring for signs of overt sycophancy, especially in government workers. Tell me why I should care if some government agency has data about where I'm going to and from? Tell me why THEY would care? I can see this as very useful in combating smugglers and terrorists but can't for the life of me imagine what use it would be to the government to know where I do my shopping. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted January 31, 2014 Author Report Posted January 31, 2014 I don't see what they're doing as wrong. It harms no one except criminals. Mass surveillance of everyone won't catch criminals. The criminals are already a step ahead. Tell me why I should care if some government agency has data about where I'm going to and from? Tell me why THEY would care? I can see this as very useful in combating smugglers and terrorists but can't for the life of me imagine what use it would be to the government to know where I do my shopping. You don't care but then you wonder why they need to track you for some time after. So you do care. If the government can track you like that, so can criminals. Hack into the systems and all is yours. The system they are building and having things so interconnected allow criminals the use of the same systems. The more they are connected the more problems we will see. Quote
Argus Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 Mass surveillance of everyone won't catch criminals. The criminals are already a step ahead. I think it's clear it DOES catch criminals. We've seen it from the far more obvious video surveillence the UK uses. We also saw it in the Boston Bombing case, where again, video surveilance evidence was crucial in finding out who was responsible. You don't care but then you wonder why they need to track you for some time after. So you do care. If the government can track you like that, so can criminals. Hack into the systems and all is yours. I think criminals would be more likely to hack into the cell phone company for such data Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Moonlight Graham Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 If you're not doing anything wrong what IS the issue? Hey, CSEC, feel free to track my movements. You like people or government spying on you? Have fun! Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
GostHacked Posted January 31, 2014 Author Report Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) I think it's clear it DOES catch criminals. We've seen it from the far more obvious video surveillence the UK uses. The UK has the highest concentration of CCTV camera use in the world. Not just airports, but on every street corner. Using cameras and mics to 'patrol' the areas. This is mass big brother surveillance. We also saw it in the Boston Bombing case, where again, video surveilance evidence was crucial in finding out who was responsible. Sure leave out the fact that the FBI was already tracking and knew about them long before the Boston Bombings took place. Blame the FBI for not looking into the criminals further even when the Russian government told US officials that they need to be concerned about those two. The FBI deemed them not a thread and stopped tracking them. Absolute fail. This does not prevent terrorism, only that they are able to find the people responsible for it easier. Another important thing to note is that most of the thwarted plots by the FBI have been controlled operations by the FBI in sting operations to catch suspected criminals. Again throwing your notion to the floor that this prevents terrorism. I think criminals would be more likely to hack into the cell phone company for such data The issue here is that many companies have outsourced their data to companies that do data storage. And when you have many companies dealing with one datacenter, then once you crack one part you get it all. So really what is the use of the mics and cameras and tracking of travelers wifi? Edited January 31, 2014 by GostHacked Quote
cybercoma Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 No one should think wifi is anything but an open loop for snoopersI wouldn't assume that after using WiFi at an airport the government would be able to continue to spy on me days later after I've disconnected from that network. I also find it an unacceptable intrusion into my personal life that the government has no right doing. There were laws put into place to prevent the arbitrary eavesdropping on citizens through phone tapping and opening mail. The internet is exactly like the phone lines or your mailbox. If they need a warrant to access your phone communications and your mail, then they sure as hell should need a warrant to access your online communications. It should be appalling to anyone that believes in a free and just society that the government can monitor you and build a case against you without your knowledge whatsoever. The effects of a government that spies on you anytime and anywhere is severely detrimental to out freedoms. It's not that the government will crush dissent with teargas, batons, and rifles, it's that they'll create an environment where people who disagree with the government will be afraid to speak out because the government may always be listening. This behaviour by our government agencies is completely unacceptable in a society that ought to be free and just. We should not tolerate it in the slightest. If they have reason to monitor people, they can damn well run those reasons through the judiciary, rather than ignoring our legal protections and doing whatever the hell they want unilaterally and without our knowledge. Quote
cybercoma Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 This does not prevent terrorismOf course it isn't. That's how it's being sold to the peasants. You know what's for? It's to make people second guess about protesting their government and getting together to speak out against things like the concentration of wealth at the top of the pyramid. It's designed to manipulate and control people by encouraging them to regulate themselves into toeing the line. The danger is in making people feel so defeated that they do nothing to stop the ludicrous policies that Western governments have been progressively instituting to crush the middle class. And it's working. Look at how unions are treated for striking. Look at how Occupy Wall Street was treated for speaking out against the wealth and political power disparity. If there's a chance that you're constantly being monitored by government agencies are you going to risk having your life destroyed by fighting for your rights? Some might, but most won't. Quote
GostHacked Posted January 31, 2014 Author Report Posted January 31, 2014 It is about control. This is what you are hinting at cybercoma, and I agree completely. Both of your last posts are good. Quote
cybercoma Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 What's so insidious about it is that it's about a type of power and control that gets people to self-regulate against their own interests. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 Thing is how can we combat against this when we have no idea how widespread these operations are? I am sure there is more going on. But will there be mass outrage over the airport spying allegations ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 Tell me why THEY would care? I can see this as very useful in combating smugglers and terrorists but can't for the life of me imagine what use it would be to the government to know where I do my shopping. Argus, you may know my position on this issue has been softly pro-government, however I have to say that Kimmy's post a few weeks ago reduced my feeling of support for these measures - although I still see them as necessary. Apparently, terrorism is being defined loosely enough to allow government agencies to track and interfere with groups that may only be expressing opposition, eg. environmental groups, animal welfare groups and so on. That's why they might care. I don't think anything but a nuanced view of all of this makes sense, though, since it's so complicated. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 You like people or government spying on you? Have fun! Actually, his opinion has an impact on your rights as do mine, as do yours on mine and so on. In the end, what plays politically is what will decide policy here. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
GostHacked Posted January 31, 2014 Author Report Posted January 31, 2014 I am sure there is more going on. But will there be mass outrage over the airport spying allegations ? Check cybercoma's posts for the reasons. It's about control and suppression of any type of dissent.. If you speak out, you are going to be treated like how some view Snowden as a traitor. Even a little dirt on you will be used against you if you decide to speak out about it. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 You know what's for? It's to make people second guess about protesting their government and getting together to speak out against things like the concentration of wealth at the top of the pyramid. With all due respect, there are peasants who think the government is after them and peasants who speak out against the concentration of wealth... let's not malign peasants or be too sure what the powers that be want either, for that matter. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
GostHacked Posted January 31, 2014 Author Report Posted January 31, 2014 With all due respect, there are peasants who think the government is after them and peasants who speak out against the concentration of wealth... let's not malign peasants or be too sure what the powers that be want either, for that matter. Government has always wanted to control the peasants. It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you. Quote
cybercoma Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 I still see them as necessary.I believe what you think is necessary is securing Canadians against terrorist attacks. Everyone can agree on that. It's worth reflecting on our methods, how reliable they are, and how to accomplish our goals with as little intrusion into the freedoms of innocent people. Quote
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