Ukraine crisis

[Smallc]

They are, if you don't want to hold our leader accountable for their failed actions while complaining about Putin for much of the same thing our leaders are doing.

It's not even remotely the same thing, as has been pointed out more than once. Even if they were, again, this isn't the place. It's hard to call the people who keep pointing out every single thing the west has ever done wrong anything but Putin apologists.

[GostHacked]

It's not even remotely the same thing, as has been pointed out more than once. Even if they were, again, this isn't the place. It's hard to call the people who keep pointing out every single thing the west has ever done wrong anything but Putin apologists.

Challenge time. Quote one post in this thread that shows a poster was apologetic for what Russia and Putin are currently doing. Can't do it can you?

[Smallc]

It's not even remotely the same thing, as has been pointed out more than once. Even if they were, again, this isn't the place. It's hard to call the people who keep pointing out every single thing the west has ever done wrong anything but Putin apologists.

Challenge time. Quote one post in this thread that shows a poster was apologetic for what Russia and Putin are currently doing. Can't do it can you?

[dre]

Funny watching the usual suspects wretch and bleet, and scream "Anti western" or "Putin Apologist" but make no attempt at all to address any of the points they are responding to.

I replied to SmallC's contention that the western press has no reason to promote the position of western governments, with a very accurate explanation of why they do which quite frankly isnt even contraversial, complete with concrete examples of the government and various media corps scratching each others backs. I took no position at all beyond that.

And nothing back besides wretching and bleeting like a goat getting its throat cut...

Edited May 18, 2014 by dre

[dre]

Challenge time. Quote one post in this thread that shows a poster was apologetic for what Russia and Putin are currently doing. Can't do it can you?

Dont hold your breath...

[Big Guy]

I believe that when poster A comments on poster B - and not on the issue being discussed, then whoever bothers to follow the thread learns a lot more about poster A then about poster B. I do not understand why people who hide behind anonymous avatars think that trying to demean, intimidate or ridicule another poster is somehow a positive for their avatar or their position on an issue.

It takes very little intellect to badger, insult or try to diminish another. Everyone understands that reality. To present, defend or rebut a valid point of view requires research, intellect and tact. All opinions on an issue are valid - to the person holding that opinion.

I have been posting to anonymous public access bulletin boards for years and am disappointed that this silliness still continues, even with the increased monitoring on most popular boards.

If I read a thread in which I am not really interested, or posts with which I do not agree but am not prepared to do the research then I move on to the next thread. To attack the poster would be silly, unproductive and sully any credibility that had been associated with my avatar.

The sniping, cheap shots and insults do become tedious after time. Move on. Please!

If you have nothing of value to add to a thread then please just carry on to another. You will be doing all readers a favor.

[Shady]

It's not even remotely the same thing, as has been pointed out more than once. Even if they were, again, this isn't the place. It's hard to call the people who keep pointing out every single thing the west has ever done wrong anything but Putin apologists.

I honestly have never experienced anything quite like what I've seen in the last couple of months. It's like an episode of the Twilight Zone. The lengths at which the pro-Putin useful idiots will go to defend him and his actions knows no bounds. He basically has the right to pretty much do whatever he wants from them. Because "stuff they don't like happened in the past." It's the most juvenile, non-critical thinking philosphy I've ever heard.

[Wayward Son]

I honestly have never experienced anything quite like what I've seen in the last couple of months. It's like an episode of the Twilight Zone. The lengths at which the pro-Putin useful idiots will go to defend him and his actions knows no bounds. He basically has the right to pretty much do whatever he wants from them. Because "stuff they don't like happened in the past." It's the most juvenile, non-critical thinking philosphy I've ever heard.

This is really something I have seen played out a couple times since 9/11 for people on the left (I say that as someone who generally finds myself on the far left for almost all issues). After 9/11 Hitchens stated roughly the following about some of the left's reaction: "It’s the observation that when people are learning a new language, they habitually translate it back into the one they already know." (That was a quote from Marx) and he used that to argue that a good portion of the left views most things as a battle between the imperial west and their victims. Therefore any group that attacks the imperial western power must be a representative of the oppressed, and its agenda must be aligned with the agenda of the left even when the terrorists hated everything the left had long fought for. Any time many on left oppose totalitarianism, oppose dictators, oppose aggression against weaker nations by other nations (as long as they are not western), some others on the left will accuse them of supporting western imperialism.

I knew immediately that when Putin started making noise about the Ukraine some on the left would find a way to come to his defense, despite being an authoritarian thug who would horrify every left-winger if he was a politician in their own country. The shaky claim about the NATO expansion promise is passed around as gospel despite there being little evidence to support such a position ever being agreed to between NATO and the USSR, nothing being in writing at a time when the Soviets were ensuring everything else was in writing, and despite any decision made between two superpowers and forced upon smaller nations being an action that those same people would oppose in any other context (talk about western imperialism).

This is no different from the many on the left who leveled similar accusations against leftists like Orwell who opposed Soviet totalitarianism and expansionism. But the left is divided by many issues and I suspect that the right is no different.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Wayward Son

[dre]

I honestly have never experienced anything quite like what I've seen in the last couple of months. It's like an episode of the Twilight Zone. The lengths at which the pro-Putin useful idiots will go to defend him and his actions knows no bounds. He basically has the right to pretty much do whatever he wants from them. Because "stuff they don't like happened in the past." It's the most juvenile, non-critical thinking philosphy I've ever heard.

Just more bleeting and wretching! You have to realize that just because people have no choice but to laugh at you and point out the hilarity in your position does not mean they are cheering for Putin or Russia. I understand why you wish that was true... I understand why its nice for you to think that we are evil Russian sympathizers, instead of just your peers laughing at you yet again... and I know it must hurt to be the butt of jokes all the time both on this forum and in real life. But as hard as it is for you to understand, people like BM and GH that point out the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of your positions on the Ukraine are not necessarily defending Russia or anything that Russia has done at all.

My personal opinion, and I think that BM and GH would agree is that Russia should have kept its hands to itself unless ethnic Russians in the Ukraine faced some kind of real existential threat. I basically agree that Russia has used political instability in the Ukraine as an excuse to increase its sphere of influence, and I agree that based on what we know for sure, that excuse is a flimsy one.

But just because I laugh at you, and your confused, tortured logic, does not mean Im a fan of Putin or anything Russia has done. Just because I think you have absolutely no credibility does not mean I support Russia annexing parts of its neighbors.

Edited May 19, 2014 by dre

[Rue]

Big Guy I appreciated your comments and they capture my frustration. I even satirically have placed on my profile the kinds of insults I have heard when I express unpopular views and people then in their response to me call the exact names no seeing any irony in repeating them and why I listed them.

I have fallen for engaging in personal attacks in response to them. Sometimes I have felt that certain people on this board have been able to throw out the personal insults then run to the moderator when they are responded to in the same manner and portray themselves as victims. Then again imagine being a moderator trying to referee when it gets too personal. Its tough.

So now and then we all need to remind ourselves the name calling is pointless. The problem is the name calling now is directed at the words or expressed in ways to try avoid being considered a personal attack.

So for example in the latest Dre post he talks of laughing at "you" to keep the insult sufficiently vague that it can't be said to have attacked a poster. Likewise when he starts calling his target an intellectual midget.

Such words bait and incite and lower the debate and in this case the debate on the Ukrainian crisis and how their is inconsistency with the arguments being posed by those who support Putin's invasion and seizure of land of a sovereign nation while in the same breath as Putin occupies the Ukraine, state Israel should not "occupy" the West Bank or the US should not have invaded Iraq.

Then we have Dre call it tortured logic when one points out this inconstancy or suggests that its illogical to criticize the US for justifying entering Iraq and then in the next breath not criticize Putin for doing the same in the Ukraine.

My take is that both Russia in the Ukraine and China off the coast of Vietnam are expanding their territories in direct response to the failed foreign policies of Obama and the vacuum his failed foreign policy has created.

Obama is engaging in Jimmy Carter foreign policy. He has pulled the US off the world stage as a police power and China and Russia sensing this turning inwords and reluctance to assert world leadership are moving in with the vacuum created from the lack of leadership.

The West has not reported on China's growing expansionism in the seas around Vietnam and the implication that has to the fragile stability of that area of the world and the implications that may have for the Philippines, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan not just Vetnam.

The Western press is also reluctant to criticize Putin.

The press reflects the political values of its host nations and the intellectual biases of those who control its editorial process which reflects the political

values of the day.

It also does not surprise me all Ukrainians are now being unfairly depicted as Nazis just like Israelis by the very same leftists who think anyone anti American or anti Israel is politically the underdog.

Unfortunately as the year move on we see the people who lived under Communist Soviet Union oppression or the forced starvation in the Ukraine, or who survived the holocaust or discrimination of dhimmitude in Arab nations diminish. They get older and die out and with them links to the past and the realities of these regimes.

The new regime who have never lived through a war and take all their democratic rights and privileges as a given and have never had to live under an oppressive regime sit back in Mama's basement as I call it thinking they get what's going on by reading some bites on their internet.

Ukrainians are not Nazis. They are Ukrainians. When they formed their new nation they reached out to Israel and openly came with honest and good faith to discuss the painful Nazi past of certain Ukrainian collaborators and how they slaughtered Jewish Ukrainians. In return Israel could then acknowledge how those same Ukrainian Nazi sympathizers also killed non Jewish Ukrainians and exposed innocent Ukrainians to being accused of supporting Nazism enabling Stalin to massively starve to death Ukrainians who were just farmers. Both peoples reached out to each other through

genuine dialogue. It was similar to the dialogue the Czech Republic engaged in with Israel and with what Lech Walesa initiated on behalf of Poland with Israel and what Konrad Adenhauer and later Willy Brandt did with Germany and Israel

Ukrainians are not Nazis. They are people. Yes they have some extremist anti-semites or pro Nazi types as does Russia.

They are a reality in all European nations but they are not mainstream. France and Britain have them. Denmark, Norway, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Finland, Sweden, they all have them,

They are alienated youth or people who are out of touch with their own roots and seek to blame Jews,Muslims, or their own people for their own personal failures.

Their high rate of unemployment is blamed on anyone and everyone they perceive different than themselves.

That is nothing new. It is human nature when the times get tough to blame someone else for one's own limitations.

However to stereotype Ukrainians as Nazis to try justify Putin's invasion is b.s. These people have the right to their own sovereign nation free of

interference from Putin.

Yes the Ukraine has struggled with its economy and corruption. This is expected in a new democracy. People take advantage of the lack of familiarity with understanding how to hold the government of the day accountable through public discussion, a judicial system separated from direct political control and a free media. It takes time to develop such expertise .

Putin fears a free Ukraine because it would spread to Russia and freedom is something Putin has gone out of his way to prevent stripping the media of any freedom it had, retaining direct control of his courts, re-establishing the police as a political agent of control and revising the chauvinistic beliefs of the old Communist party right back to the military parades and goose-stepping.

These parades are no different than the little fat boy's in North Korea.

They reflect the views of a nation that feels the need to express its tiny little penis through large missiles on display.

Putin is a little runt who feels the need to compensate for that fact through large missiles.

its not too difficult to psychoanalyze him.

He is another Stalin or Hitler, yet another small man, trying to act big by ruling the world and like the rest will be destined to failure being removed by the very violence he will be inciting in others to consolidate his own rule.

[Big Guy]

As to what Putin thinks I have no insight. I try to look at the world objectively and from a neutral view. Harper does things that he believes are good for Canada, Obama tries to promote the interests of the American people and Putin does what he thinks is best for Russians. I am not an apologist for any of them or any other leader of any country.

The fact is that the popularity of Putin in Russia has been increasing with his movements in Ukraine. His popularity is in the mid 80% range according to "The Independent". The fact that Russians appear to be agreeing with what Putin has done and is doing should be of concern to the West. I would be more concerned about what is in the Russian psyche that the vast majority support his policies.

This country of about 150 million people with a formidable armed force and nuclear capabilities has the potential to create major problems for Canada and the West. It also has a strangle hold on the supply of gas in Europe and can just ratchet up its price when it needs more capital. Sanctions are a diplomatic fig leaf for the Europeans.

This Ukraine crisis has already shown the weakness of Western influence in Europe. It will not be resolved through meaningless sanctions and/or calling Putin names. It is important to understand the reality of what is happening on the ground in Eastern and Southern Ukraine in order to develop a policy that will satisfy the wants and needs of the Russian speaking people of Ukraine. I am not sure that we are getting the objective information from Western sources required to get those answers.

[Shady]

I know we're not getting objective information from Russian sources.

[eyeball]

I honestly have never experienced anything quite like what I've seen in the last couple of months. It's like an episode of the Twilight Zone. The lengths at which the pro-Putin useful idiots will go to defend him and his actions knows no bounds. He basically has the right to pretty much do whatever he wants from them. Because "stuff they don't like happened in the past." It's the most juvenile, non-critical thinking philosphy I've ever heard.

Looking past all the blather about who supports what around here it's ironic how closely aligned Putin's values are with your's. He's as conservative and anti-liberal as you - he certainly didn't become one of the richest most powerful men on Earth by using the effete degenerate values of the left as a guide.

“Increasingly in the past few years, Putin has articulated a vision of Russia and its values that is more 19th century conservatism than Soviet nostalgia: proudly anti-Western and anti-liberal,” the International Crisis Group said in a report this month.

Story

Don't you think a lot of Putin's enmity towards the West would probably go away if we could rid ourselves of the liberalism that infected us during the 20th century too?

[dre]

He is another Stalin or Hitler

ROFLMAO. Knew THAT was coming!

So for example in the latest Dre post he talks of laughing at "you" to keep the insult sufficiently vague that it can't be said to have attacked a poster. Likewise when he starts calling his target an intellectual midget.

Conveniently you ignore the fact that I was called a "useful idiot", "anti western", and "putin apologist" for simply pointing out that the media in the west has a vested interest in towing the governments line. Even though I took no position at all on Russias actions.

Edited May 19, 2014 by dre

[GostHacked]

I honestly have never experienced anything quite like what I've seen in the last couple of months. It's like an episode of the Twilight Zone. The lengths at which the pro-Putin useful idiots will go to defend him and his actions knows no bounds. He basically has the right to pretty much do whatever he wants from them. Because "stuff they don't like happened in the past." It's the most juvenile, non-critical thinking philosphy I've ever heard.

Who here is Pro-Putin? Let's call this 'Challenge #2'.

[GostHacked]

Dont hold your breath...

One could almost call it trolling, since you and I have cleared up that notion about the Putin apologists several times in this thread. It will get thrown out a couple more times.

[Smallc]

No one said you were apologizing of Putin outright. What might count as trolling though, is brining in every example of what every western country has done wrong in a thread where such a discussion seems to have no place. It seems to be nothing but an excuse for Putin's actions, hence the apologist label.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Smallc

[Shady]

No one said you were apologizing of Putin outright. What might count as teolling though, is brining in every example of what every western country has done wrong in a thread where such a discussion seems to have no place. It seems to be nothing but an excuse for Putin's actions, hence the apologist label.

Exactly. Defending his actions by equivalency. Very shoddy equivalency at best. Purposely misleading equivalency at worst. Pretending to "not know what's really going on over there" while we all really know what's going on. A blantant and unprovoked land grab. From a man that called the collapse of the Soviet Union the greatest tragedy in the 20th century. BUT THE WEST! BUT THE WEST! BUT THE WEST! Is the only response. As if the so-called West is some monolithic group. It's not. It's made up of numerous entities each with it's own values, cultures, and interests. Mexico, Canada, United States, UK, France, Germany, Finland, etc, are all very very different.

[Shady]

It's all part of their motto. Blame the west, make excuses for the rest.

[GostHacked]

It's all part of their motto. Blame the west, make excuses for the rest.

For those with the ADHD, this is a crisis decades in the making. Ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Try to look back a little farther for some real context.

It's like blaming Obama (which you do) without understanding the role Bush (which you are apologetic for) had in it all.

Or is it selective history that is at play here?

[dre]

For those with the ADHD, this is a crisis decades in the making. Ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Try to look back a little farther for some real context.

It's like blaming Obama (which you do) without understanding the role Bush (which you are apologetic for) had in it all.

Or is it selective history that is at play here?

Its really a sort of sports fan mentality. Black vs White... Good vs Evil, And nothing in between. If it was a western coalition that was doing EXACTLY the same thing Russia is doing, these people would have their pom-poms on like they did when we torched Iraq and got hundreds of thousands of people kill. But when Russia walks unopposed into an area on their border thats predominantly Russian? HITLER! HITLER! NAZIS BLEET WRETCH BLEET!!!

[Smallc]

For those with the ADHD, this is a crisis decades in the making. Ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Try to look back a little farther for some real context.

Most of the context here points to this being a problem with Russia, and not the West.

[Smallc]

But when Russia walks unopposed into an area on their border thats predominantly Russian? HITLER! HITLER! NAZIS BLEET WRETCH BLEET!!!

Russia invaded another country...so yeah...that's about it.

[Big Guy]

When the good guys decided to impose sanctions on Russia there was a fear that bad guy Russia could always ratchet up the price for its gas from Russia, and get that money back. Those bright political lights in Europe, which gets about 40% of its gas, dismissed this potential tactic because they believed that any time Russia turns off or turns down the tap they are losing money and would consequently bankrupt themselves.

Meanwhile, China did not support the Russian position on Ukraine but did not join in the sanctions. As the West continues to ratchet up those silly semi-sanctions on those billionaires in Russia, China and Russia are in the process of signing a $400 billion gas deal.

Putin had an 80% approval rating from Russians before this deal was planned. I wonder how popular he will be after it is signed.

Looks like not only that "might is right" but that money is mightier.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Big Guy

[Wayward Son]

Its really a sort of sports fan mentality. Black vs White... Good vs Evil, And nothing in between. If it was a western coalition that was doing EXACTLY the same thing Russia is doing, these people would have their pom-poms on like they did when we torched Iraq and got hundreds of thousands of people kill. But when Russia walks unopposed into an area on their border thats predominantly Russian? HITLER! HITLER! NAZIS BLEET WRETCH BLEET!!!

Some of us have managed the amazing feat of opposing the US going into Iraq AND opposing what Russia is doing to destabilize the Ukraine. Others opposed the US going into Iraq but are coming up with all kinds of excuses for Russia now (Ders Russians in there so why shouldn't Russia go in? NATO made a (completely undocumented) promise to the USSR not expand eastward...so that means that no what Russia does, the west is more at fault).