Neil Young rocks the tar sands

[Accountability Now]

Apparently you're right ... or there's a lot more people in Alberta opposed to the tar sands than some want to believe!

/neil-youngs-honour-the-treaties-concert-in-calgary-now-sold-out/

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I just read your link to support your claim that a lot more people oppose the oil sands than we think. You do realize this "sold out" crowd is taking place in a 1800 seat facility!!! Lol! Oh no....1800 people are either against it or like Neil Young enough to support his cause. This is too funny.

You get more people to a junior hockey game in Calgary than this! Lol!

[jacee]

What does it matter? Nothing is going to stop oil sands development. Nothing is going to stop oil shipments.

It'll likely go to the Supreme Court, and that may not be the end of it either. The International Court hears such cases too.

First Nations remain steadfastly opposed to Proposed Enbridge Northern Gateway Pipeline

"The Joint Review Panel decision to provide conditional approval does not alter or negate in any way, the federal governments clear legal responsibility to consult and accommodate First Nations, especially given the precedent provided by a long list of Supreme Court decisions," said Grand Chief Edward John of the First Nations Summit political executive. "The necessary consultation standard for any development project in BC, especially those with such a high potential for negative impacts, must be to seek the free, prior and informed consent of each and every First Nation whose Aboriginal title and rights will be impacted by a proposed project."

...

The Northern Gateway Project is being vehemently opposed by Indigenous Peoples who will not put their territories, waters and communities at risk. This is about the environmental integrity of the watersheds we all share and we are willing to go to any lengths to defend our watersheds. We are prepared to go to the wall against this project. We have no choice."

Indigenous Peoples have legal recourse, resources and support to fight pipelines and shipping oil.

energy_workers_union_backs_first_nations_against_northern_gateway

January 15, 2014 - The Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation (ACFN), accompanied by Canadian iconic folk singer Neil Young, announced new litigation against the Federal government and Shell Canada during the official press conference for the Honour the Treaties benefit tour on Sunday January 13 in Toronto. Woodward & Company filed an application on behalf of the ACFN on January 3, 2014, asking the Federal Court to review the Crowns decision to approve the Joint Review Panel report and decision to authorize Shells Jackpine Mine Expansion project proposal, and declare the decision invalid and unlawful.

Edited January 18, 2014 by jacee

[bush_cheney2004]

Indigenous Peoples have legal recourse, resources and support to fight pipelines and shipping oil.

Not really.....they can't even wear protest hoodies without getting grief from the oppressive occupiers:

A Saskatchewan student was told not to wear a sweatshirt in school that has the words "Got Land? Thank an Indian" on it, although officials have since relented.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/first-nation-teen-told-not-to-wear-got-land-shirt-at-school-1.2497009

[jacee]

Not really.....

Not your laws, not your business.

they can't even wear protest hoodies without getting grief from the oppressive occupiers:

A Saskatchewan student was told not to wear a sweatshirt in school that has the words "Got Land? Thank an Indian" on it, although officials have since relented.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/first-nation-teen-told-not-to-wear-got-land-shirt-at-school-1.2497009

/saskatchewan-school-officials-backtrack-after-banning-got-land-thank-an-indian-hoodie

/got-land-thank-an-indian-shirts-hot-commodity-after-controversy-seller-says

Edited January 19, 2014 by jacee

[bush_cheney2004]

Not your laws, not your business troll.

they can't even wear protest hoodies without getting grief from the oppressive occupiers:

A Saskatchewan student was told not to wear a sweatshirt in school that has the words "Got Land? Thank an Indian" on it, although officials have since relented.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/first-nation-teen-told-not-to-wear-got-land-shirt-at-school-1.2497009

/saskatchewan-school-officials-backtrack-after-banning-got-land-thank-an-indian-hoodie

/got-land-thank-an-indian-shirts-hot-commodity-after-controversy-seller-says

Now this is a hot mess, but I think you are trying to tell me to shut up. There is no shortage of Canadian opinions about U.S. laws 'round here. First Nations will continue to struggle against resource development, encroachment, pollution, etc. long after Neil Young retires back to his U.S. ponderosa ranch.

Edited January 19, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[jacee]

Now this is a hot mess, but I think you are trying to tell me to shut up.

Au contraire.

I'm suggesting you make a contribution to discussion that isn't just trolling.

Try it sometime.

There is no shortage of Canadian opinions about U.S. laws 'round here.

You didn't make any intelligent comment about laws.

First Nations will continue to struggle against resource development, encroachment, pollution, etc. long after Neil Young retires back to his U.S. ponderosa ranch.

With more money in their legal defence fund.

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[bush_cheney2004]

With more money in their legal defence fund.

Defence fund ??? It's an "Honour The Treaties" concert. First Nations are not on trial.

[jacee]

Defence fund ??? It's an "Honour The Treaties" concert. First Nations are not on trial.

At least try to inform yourself before commenting inanely.

/neil_young_books_canadian_BENEFIT_shows_to_support_athabasca_chipewyan_first_nation

Unfortunately, since our governments don't "Honour the Treaties", Indigenous Peoples have to take them to court.

Edited January 19, 2014 by jacee

[Argus]

It'll likely go to the Supreme Court, and that may not be the end of it either. The International Court hears such cases too.

My point is that either it travels by pipeline or it travels by rail, but it's gonna travel. I've seen some commentators who say pipelines like Keystone don't really matter as much now, with the huge and continuing buildup of oil-by-rail.

“The tank car backlog is close to 48,000, and perhaps as many as 30,000 are related to crude petroleum,” said Toby Kolstad, who runs advisory firm Rail Theory Forecasts.

The number of tank cars ordered for shipping crude and expected to be delivered by the end of 2014 will be enough to move two million barrels of oil per day, almost three times what is currently extracted from the Bakken shale basin, Mr. Kolstad said.

That’s the size of two Keystone XLs and one Seaway pipeline.

http://business.financialpost.com/2013/02/22/demand-for-tank-cars-to-ship-crude-oil-by-rail-rises-at-breakneck-speed/?__lsa=62eb-81dc

Edited January 19, 2014 by Argus

[Keepitsimple]

Amazing what money and a pliant media can accomplish. Hundreds of pipelines with thousands upon thousands of pipeline miles have been around for 60 years or longer - not a peep about them until the Climate Change alarmism starts to permeate the discussion. It's OK for Obama to build a record number of pipelines and continue to supply 40% of US energy via coal; it's just fine for China to build a new coal generation plant every week and have citizens of every major city wearing masks to avoid the particulate-laden smog; It's tickety-boo for India to use coal and Germany to switch from Nuclear to Coal.......but Canada and it's globally trivial emissions - well that's where the foreign money flows to fund to eco-nuts. As I've said before - ask yourself why? Why Canada? Why dupes like Jacee who get sucked into this mis-direction?

[bush_cheney2004]

My point is that either it travels by pipeline or it travels by rail, but it's gonna travel. I've seen some commentators who say pipelines like Keystone don't really matter as much now, with the huge and continuing buildup of oil-by-rail.

Yes, and this is far more significant than Neil Young, tree huggers, warmies, and climate change alarmists playing rope-a-dope over new pipelines and refineries in Canada. Get thee to the stock market and make a killing on rail transportation stocks. You can always save the whales later.

http://wire.kapitall.com/investment-idea/tank-car-manufacturers-to-benefit-from-crude-by-rail/

[jacee]

Amazing what money and a pliant media can accomplish. Hundreds of pipelines with thousands upon thousands of pipeline miles have been around for 60 years or longer - not a peep about them until the Climate Change alarmism starts to permeate the discussion. It's OK for Obama to build a record number of pipelines and continue to supply 40% of US energy via coal; it's just fine for China to build a new coal generation plant every week and have citizens of every major city wearing masks to avoid the particulate-laden smog; It's tickety-boo for India to use coal and Germany to switch from Nuclear to Coal.......but Canada and it's globally trivial emissions - well that's where the foreign money flows to fund to eco-nuts. As I've said before - ask yourself why? Why Canada? Why dupes like Jacee who get sucked into this mis-direction?

I don't have any influence on US, China, Germany.

I live here.

I don't want to see the west coast destroyed, nor my own watershed (Line 9).

I'm interested in the implementation of Aboriginal and treaty rights.

"Dupes" are the ones thinking leaks, spills and shipwrecks won't happen or won't matter, imo.

"Dupes" think profits come before planet and people.

[hitops]

I don't have any influence on US, China, Germany.

I live here.

I don't want to see the west coast destroyed, nor my own watershed (Line 9).

I'm interested in the implementation of Aboriginal and treaty rights.

"Dupes" are the ones thinking leaks, spills and shipwrecks won't happen or won't matter, imo.

"Dupes" think profits come before planet and people.

"Dupes" are those who oppose pipelines, and therefore force oil onto the far more hazardous and risky method of rail transport.

Edited January 20, 2014 by hitops

[On Guard for Thee]

Amazing what money and a pliant media can accomplish. Hundreds of pipelines with thousands upon thousands of pipeline miles have been around for 60 years or longer - not a peep about them until the Climate Change alarmism starts to permeate the discussion. It's OK for Obama to build a record number of pipelines and continue to supply 40% of US energy via coal; it's just fine for China to build a new coal generation plant every week and have citizens of every major city wearing masks to avoid the particulate-laden smog; It's tickety-boo for India to use coal and Germany to switch from Nuclear to Coal.......but Canada and it's globally trivial emissions - well that's where the foreign money flows to fund to eco-nuts. As I've said before - ask yourself why? Why Canada? Why dupes like Jacee who get sucked into this mis-direction?

Canada's globally trivial emmisions as you call them are just so because of out small population. If you look at per capita we are 15th out of 17 OECD countries. We live in a relatively cold country with large distances between population centers which contributes to our current fossil fuel useage. OK fair enough for now, but let's not let it get away on us. If you think those coal burners in China are "fine" go there and see how you like the air. I have and I'll guarantee you you won't like it.

[Keepitsimple]

Canada's globally trivial emmisions as you call them are just so because of out small population. If you look at per capita we are 15th out of 17 OECD countries. We live in a relatively cold country with large distances between population centers which contributes to our current fossil fuel useage. OK fair enough for now, but let's not let it get away on us. If you think those coal burners in China are "fine" go there and see how you like the air. I have and I'll guarantee you you won't like it.

Totally agree.

[Keepitsimple]

I don't have any influence on US, China, Germany.

I live here.

I don't want to see the west coast destroyed, nor my own watershed (Line 9).

I'm interested in the implementation of Aboriginal and treaty rights.

"Dupes" are the ones thinking leaks, spills and shipwrecks won't happen or won't matter, imo.

"Dupes" think profits come before planet and people.

Jacee....it's the Provincial and Federal governments who fund conservation and protection of the environment - on behalf of all of us. That protection comes at a cost - whether it's Federal and Provincial parks, fighting the Pine Beetle, protecting moraines and wetlands. Funding comes from a healthy economy and a huge chunk of our economy comes from Natural Resources. Ideologically opposing pipelines (stopping oil from getting to market) would dramatically effect our economy and affect the amount of money available to all levels of government. When it comes to injecting money into healthcare or building roads and bridges - or funding environmental causes....it's a no brainer. "Dupes" are killing the goose that laid the golden egg. New pipelines are not only many times safer than rail - they are even more dependable than the thousands that have been operating virtually invisibly for decades.

[jacee]

Jacee....it's the Provincial and Federal governments who fund conservation and protection of the environment - on behalf of all of us. That protection comes at a cost - whether it's Federal and Provincial parks, fighting the Pine Beetle, protecting moraines and wetlands. Funding comes from a healthy economy and a huge chunk of our economy comes from Natural Resources. Ideologically opposing pipelines (stopping oil from getting to market) would dramatically effect our economy and affect the amount of money available to all levels of government. When it comes to injecting money into healthcare or building roads and bridges - or funding environmental causes....it's a no brainer. "Dupes" are killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

Bizarre reasoning: 'We have to destroy the environment and put a lot of people at risk to make a whole lot of money so a tiny little bit can go to protecting the environment ... maybe.'

So... you would roll your car into a crowd of people with your kids in it to get a little money to fix your car?

New pipelines are not only many times safer than rail - they are even more dependable than the thousands that have been operating virtually invisibly for decades.

There is increasing public awareness of the dangers. All infrastructure gets old and weak. Perhaps trust is an issue?

Pipeline safety incident rate doubled in past decade:

Database gives detailed picture of 1,047 reported problems

And we've all seen the horror of Lac Megantic recently, the danger of shipping by rail ... with old cars and oil more explosive than it's claimed.

Public trust is low. Deal with it.

Calling people names isn't a good way to gain trust.

I've noticed that Harper and the oil industry are getting that message. They've switched from denigrating, disrespecting and dismissing opponents, to blowing their horn about how they are 'consulting' with communities for input.

Nobody trusts them still - It's a lot of smoke and mirrors - but at least they've learned that openly disrespecting the public's concerns is a bad tactic as it creates even more opposition and delays.

Take a lesson from the bigwigs.

The tide has turned.

The tar sands aren't a benefit to Canadians. They're a disaster foisted on Canadians all across the country - by pipeline or rail - for private profits.

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Edited January 20, 2014 by jacee

[Keepitsimple]

The tar sands aren't a benefit to Canadians. They're a disaster foisted on Canadians all across the country - by pipeline or rail - for private profits.

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Private Profits? As in dividends to shareholders? - tens of thousands of which are ordinary, everyday Canadians who hold Company stock in their RRSP's.....and how about the thousands of workers who get paid excellent wages and come from all over Canada to work in this "disaster". It's very hard to respect "the other side" when their only goal is to completely shut down the Oil Sands.

[gunrutz]

The tar sands aren't a benefit to Canadians. They're a disaster foisted on Canadians all across the country - by pipeline or rail - for private profits.

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I have lived all over this country, i have seen no such disaster, but i know a lot of people who have moved to Alberta and have made a good living and life for themselves and families. Of course you will argue, but it seems that your statement is utterly and demonstrably false.

[jacee]

I have lived all over this country, i have seen no such disaster, but i know a lot of people who have moved to Alberta and have made a good living and life for themselves and families. Of course you will argue, but it seems that your statement is utterly and demonstrably false.

Do you live close to a pipeline or railway?

Would you?

Several million of us do.

We're just speaking up about our concerns, as is our right and responsibility.

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[jacee]

I have lived all over this country, i have seen no such disaster,

Wait for it ...

but i know a lot of people who have moved to Alberta and have made a good living and life for themselves and families.

And they can continue to, within reason.

It's the entirely unreasonable ramping up of the tar sands to ship raw product to China that is outrageously destructive, dangerous and without suffucient benefit to Canadians, in jobs or safety or environmental conservation.

Alberta and Canada could have more manufacturing, more jobs, less damage and danger if we keep the oil here and keep production levels more reasonable, less damaging.

Nneil Young's goal has been achieved:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/neil-young-concludes-anti-oilsands-concert-series-with-show-in-calgary-1.1646062

Beyond the financial goal, Young said the concerts have succeeded in getting Canadians talking."So it's a win for us, because we're all talking about it. No matter how you feel, there's a discussion going on at the breakfast table. That's big. That's real. That's Canada."

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Edited January 20, 2014 by jacee

[Keepitsimple]

Alberta and Canada could have more manufacturing, more jobs, less damage and danger if we keep the oil here and keep production levels more reasonable, less damaging.

If you keep it here - that means it gets refined here. You can make gasolene, kerosene, fuel oil, motor oil and various other products - and guess what - they all have to travel by rail or truck to get to their various markets. It's called the law of unintended consequences - so think it through a bit more.

[PIK]

Not buying that one bit...Canada had decades to build east-west-coast pipeline infrastructure and refining capacity but did not do so. About 70% of Canada's "oil" production leases are owned by foreign interests. That means it was mostly somebody else spending their capital to develop the resource.

There is no shortage of excuses for why the pipelines haven't or won't be built.

And I wonder who is fronting tides america /canada.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/01/17/first-nations-chief-received-55000-from-tides-foundation

A left-wing lobby group in San Francisco wired $55,000 to the bank account of an Indian chief in Northern Alberta, paying him to oppose the oilsands.

And sure enough, that chief – Allan Adam, from the Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation – earned his money. Last weekend, he flew to Toronto to sit on a stage next to Neil Young, the folk singer who was in town to demonize Canada’s oil industry.

Now, $55,000 might sound like a lot of money to pay, just to rent a politician for a day if all the chief did for his money was to appear on stage in Toronto beside Neil Young. But to the Tides Foundation, it’s well worth it. Think of Adam as an actor, hired to play a part in an elaborate theatrical production.

Neil Young had his role: he’s the American celebrity who can draw crowds of fawning Baby Boomer journalists. But at the end of the day, he’s just another millionaire celebrity. When he talks about the oilsands, he quickly reveals himself as a low-information know-nothing.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Charles Anthony
added quotation frame

[jacee]

If you keep it here - that means it gets refined here. You can make gasolene, kerosene, fuel oil, motor oil and various other products - and guess what - they all have to travel by rail or truck to get to their various markets. It's called the law of unintended consequences - so think it through a bit more.

I have.

And plastics, huge medical (etc) industry in plastics.

They use existing shipping methods and don't require the environmental destruction of new pipelines and most won't explode rail cars and towns.

It provides more employment for Canadians.

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[jacee]

If you keep it here - that means it gets refined here. You can make gasolene, kerosene, fuel oil, motor oil and various other products - and guess what - they all have to travel by rail or truck to get to their various markets. It's called the law of unintended consequences - so think it through a bit more.

Have done:

And plastics.

And jobs.

And nowhere near the environmental destruction and risk.