Police 'carding'

[cybercoma]

What you never touch is that young black men commit such a hugely disproportionate amount of crime because they're over policed. It has been pointed out before that white kids engage in as much criminal behaviour and sometimes more, particularly when it comes to drug dealing and use, but are not caught and when they are they're not prosecuted. As a result, white kids don't become statistics. Black kids do.

[Black Dog]

I can see his point, truly. But one thing he never touches on is the fact that police interact so often with young black men because young black men commit such a hugely disproportionate amount of crime, particularly violent crime.

So what? Is there any evidence this deeply racist practice is effective at reducing or solving crime? If there is a benefit, what about the costs and divisions it creates? Whatever the (racist) thinking behind this practice, the fundamental fact is citizens who are not committing or suspected of committing a crime have the right to go about their business without being accosted by armed agents of the state. That's the end of it.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Black Dog

[Argus]

So what? Is there any evidence this deeply racist practice

Doesn't seem racist to me. Seems to be targeted at the groups most likely to be committing street crimes, that being mainly

young black men. Now if it was focused on a group which didn't commit a vastly disproportionate amount of crime you could say that was racist.

is effective at reducing or solving crime?

According to Toronto's new Black police chief there is.

fact is citizens who are not committing or suspected of committing a crime have the right to go about

their business without being accosted by armed agents of the state.

If they weren't suspected of being up to no good why would the police accost them?

[Black Dog]

Doesn't seem racist to me. Seems to be targeted at the groups most likely to be committing street crimes, that being mainly

young black men.

How is that not racist?

Now if it was focused on a group which didn't commit a vastly disproportionate amount of crime you could say that was racist.

It's racist because it assumes that any random black person is likely to be a criminal.

According to Toronto's new Black police chief there is.

let's see it, then.

If they weren't suspected of being up to no good why would the police accost them?

Because, as you are implying, simply being black is itself assumed to be sufficient evidence that someone is up to no good. Hence: racist.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Black Dog

[Rue]

Cybercoma there are no statics that show the reason more black youth or blacks are arrested is that they are over policed. Or that because a youth is white they are not arrested. You made that up.

What the statistics we do have and show is that black youth are more likely to be unemployed. As a result they are more likely to be out on the street at all hours of the day and night and because of that more likely to be publically visible particularly late at night and so more likely to be noticed by police.

Herein comes the cycle the stats show. When a black youth is stopped he is more likely to have a police record on the computer in the police car or be located in gang related activities including wearing colours and selling drugs on the street.

When their name is run since they have a record they are treated differently then someone with no record.

A lot of youth when stopped get lippy and arrogant because while they may be wearing colours or simply being black at night, they get angry. Its human nature to get angry if you are stopped but you feel you are doing nothing wrong, just hanging out even if you are hanging with known gang members or petty drug dealers. So your name gets known, you get known and when you are picked up eventually, its more likely for something like swearing at a cop or being rude and then in you go to the tank charged with some petty offence.

You can't afford a lawyer so the legal aid duty counsel says, its a first offence plead guilty and they let you go with no jail time.Out you go with a record there to show up next time you are stopped.

So its a vicious cycle and it directly relates to unemployment not over policing. In fact black communities complain they are under policed and budget cuts prevent sufficient neighbourhood policing, i.e., the ability to put cops on the street walking which is the best method to avoid arresting black youth.

What the stats actually show is a strong street presence of beat cops where cops get to know the black youth, means they are less likely to arrest the youth. Youth learn that there are unwritten rules.Wear the wrong colours in the wrong neighbourhood, hang with certain people in certain places, you get shaken down. Its all part of the game and it does work. Police shakedown but do not arrest black youth which is perceived as harassment because they are creating a presence and a connection to the street-all inner city police forces do it-its part of a way to show you are there and to get to know the people on the street because some serve as informants or a help in preventing crime or they know the police actually will have their back if they do nothing wrong.

Where it gets attention is when young black men driving cars get stopped. Their crime often is having a nice car.If they have no record and they have done nothing its a piss off and they are victims of profiling yes. That same unfair profiling can also be pro active policing and bring in a fugitive.

The black community wants more street policing not less. The black community is divided among those who do not fear police and those who do.

The black community is not uniform. Blacks from African nations where the police are in fact soldiers and brutal have a lack of trust for police no different than whites from war torn countries. West Indian blacks have mixed approaches. On the one hand Jamaican Canadian youth for example are stereotyped as hating police, its not necessarily true. Many come from families where their parents work 2,3 jobs and their experience with police in Jamaica is they are black and can beat the crap out of you so you don't go near them. It depends on your country of origin. If you are born in Canada and you are a black youth your ideas on police come from American culture which popularizes gangs and an American black youth identity which distrusts

authority.

Its complex. All the stereotypes in the world can be poked and shown to be untrue including anything I said.

Carding was started the same reason pink slips are given in school buses to children out of control. It is supposed to track possible problems as part of a proactive measure of policing but it has very real civil rights issues that get triggered and it can raise all kinds of Charter legal issues not to mention feed a perception of discriminatory treatment.

Cyber its not helpful injecting your own personal political views with references to stats that don't exist with due respect. If you actually had some produce them because I doubt they exist.

What we do know for sure from stats is Blacks are arrested and stopped far more than anyone else.

Aboriginals are the most likely to be in jail and most are arrested for alcohol related charges petty in nature.

Most criminals that are convicted are convicted for alcohol and drug related offences on a low not organized level. After them its domestic violence.

Blacks are more likely to be in jail than whites but not as likely as aborginals. Blacks are more likely to be stopped and plead guilty to time served for questionable vagrancy and petty charges where there was no violence.

The stats are there to look up.

Interestingly the new Toronto Police Chief is in favour of carding.

I myself don't like carding for civil rights reasons. I am an active supporter of street policing, beat cops, cops on bicycles, neighbourhood police who are visible and known to the neighbourhood.

I am a strong believer in police interacting at schools, community centres,and on the streets because this is the way to break down barriers of distance and distrust an the best recruiting tool for future police.

The distance from the public sitting in a police car is huge.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Rue

[Rue]

Using the accusation "racism" avoids dealing with the actual issues the black community faces.It shuts down the discussion and prevents meaningful discussion as to why black youth remain unemployed at such high rates and how that makes them more likely to be on the streets at the wrong time.

Calling the race card is used defensively to avoid painful self reflecting discussions in the black community. The black community has leaders fed up with their fellow community members using that card. They see it stopping them from being able to deal with pressing issues as some of the worst parasites in their community hide behind the race card dragging the whole community down with them.

Many concerned parents of black youth don't use the race card they actually get pissed off with it and do not want their being black termed or referenced as an excuse for being a criminal. They reject that. I have worked with such parents. I have also worked with parents who are quick to use the race card to justify their self destructive behaviour and try blame it on society.

There are issues that deal with cultural sensitivity and negative perceptions that are promoted intentionally and unintentionally in our political, social,economic and legal systems but simply throwing out the term racism is pointless.

Using it as a blanket method to avoid taking individual responsibility for one's actions or on the other hand to simply name call someone without suggesting alternative approaches to that "racist" behaviour are meaningless-they don't help.

Anyone can accuse anyone of being racist. We all are. So? Now what. If it makes Black Dog feel tingly and righteous calling cops Racist, good for for it. Now what? Now what?

its easy to name call. Its not easy to come on this forum and offer alternatives. No one ever does. They stop at the racist name calling.

Go on Blackdog. Cops are racist, now what? Is that it?

You have policing suggestions?

You have formulas and policies and processes and approaches for dealing with racism/ Hmmm?

What is it with trendy leftists that they can name call but offer nothing else in discussion?

[Black Dog]

Using the accusation "racism" avoids dealing with the actual issues the black community faces.It shuts down the discussion and prevents meaningful discussion as to why black youth remain unemployed at such high rates and how that makes them more likely to be on the streets at the wrong time.

People capable of holding more than one thought in their heads at one time are able to understand that these issues are related and also distinct. Examining one in no way precludes examining the other.

Calling the race card is used defensively to avoid painful self reflecting discussions in the black community. The black community has leaders fed up with their fellow community members using that card. They see it stopping them from being able to deal with pressing issues as some of the worst parasites in their community hide behind the race card dragging the whole community down with them.

Now you're speaking for the whole black community now? lol

Many concerned parents of black youth don't use the race card they actually get pissed off with it and do not want their being black termed or referenced as an excuse for being a criminal. They reject that. I have worked with such parents. I have also worked with parents who are quick to use the race card to justify their self destructive behaviour and try blame it on society.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the racist practice of carding.

There are issues that deal with cultural sensitivity and negative perceptions that are promoted intentionally and unintentionally in our political, social,economic and legal systems but simply throwing out the term racism is pointless.

Not when something is, you know, actually racist.

Using it as a blanket method to avoid taking individual responsibility for one's actions or on the other hand to simply name call someone without suggesting alternative approaches to that "racist" behaviour are meaningless-they don't help.

What are you even on about here?

Anyone can accuse anyone of being racist. We all are. So? Now what. If it makes Black Dog feel tingly and righteous calling cops Racist, good for for it. Now what? Now what?

I didn't call cops racist. I called the practice of carding racist. Pretty simple distinction.

its easy to name call. Its not easy to come on this forum and offer alternatives. No one ever does. They stop at the racist name calling.

Go on Blackdog. Cops are racist, now what? Is that it?

You have policing suggestions?

I have one in this case: stop detaining people who are not suspected of a crime or in the act of committing one. It's a simple and elegant solution to the issue of carding.

You have formulas and policies and processes and approaches for dealing with racism/ Hmmm?

What is it with trendy leftists that they can name call but offer nothing else in discussion?

What is it with Fake Internet Lawyers that they can't follow simple discussions without going off on unrelated tangents?

Edited May 1, 2015 by Black Dog

[cybercoma]

Cybercoma there are no statics that show the reason more black youth or blacks are arrested is that they are over policed. Or that because a youth is white they are not arrested. You made that up.

I told you in the past to be concise, so I'm not even reading past this.

I will give you an example, since you're calling me a liar. In Chicago's predominantly black neighbourhood, West Garfield Park, the incarceration rate is 42x higher than any white neighbourhood. There are numerous studies showing that white crime crime goes unpoliced and when it is policed, unconvicted, should you feel like actually looking those up. It's even worse when black people find themselves in white neighbourhoods.

http://cybergeo.revues.org/26165

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/broken-windows-disproportionately-enforced-white-neighborhoods-article-1.1931171

https://ejournals.library.ualberta.ca/index.php/cjfy/article/download/24301/18000

http://www.academia.edu/10058672/Black_Males_Perceptions_of_and_Experiences_with_the_Police_in_Toronto(This dissertation has a number of statistical techniques to evaluate police bias and disproportionate police contact)

So go ahead and apologize for calling me a liar.

[guyser]

Cybercoma there are no statics that show the reason more black youth or blacks are arrested is that they are over policed. Or that because a youth is white they are not arrested. You made that up.

We do know there are more white kids than black. So one could easily postulate that the numbers should reflect that truism and then we could break it down further if you wish.

What the statistics we do have and show is that black youth are more likely to be unemployed. As a result they are more likely to be out on the street at all hours of the day and night and because of that more likely to be publically visible particularly late at night and so more likely to be noticed by police.

The stats show this huh? Where? I dont see any.

When you do post , dont forget to include the stats that show these unemployed black kids are on the streets versus the unemployed white kids (which are multi times more than blacks) who are probably inside studying to be better.

Jeebus.....

So its a vicious cycle and it directly relates to unemployment not over policing. In fact black communities complain they are under policed and budget cuts prevent sufficient neighbourhood policing, i.e., the ability to put cops on the street walking which is the best method to avoid arresting black youth.

Let me use your own wors here.

"You made that up."

No links...you made it up.

Where it gets attention is when young black men driving cars get stopped. Their crime often is having a nice car.

When white owners of nice cars start complaining then you may have something, but what you posted is a crock of baloney.

If they have no record and they have done nothing its a piss off and they are victims of profiling yes. That same unfair profiling can also be pro active policing and bring in a fugitive.

Hey, why not suspend everyones right mr lawyer?

Make it legal for cops to walk in your house anytime? Lets see, you say black kids are pissed off cuz they get pulled over for nothing yet its good sine a fugitive might get arrested.

Of all the people here, your background etc......."Papers please"....should be denounced since history has shown us why its bad.

And yet, strangely you like it.

The black community is not uniform. Blacks from African nations where the police are in fact soldiers and brutal have a lack of trust for police no different than whites from war torn countries. West Indian blacks have mixed approaches. On the one hand Jamaican Canadian youth for example are stereotyped as hating police, its not necessarily true. Many come from families where their parents work 2,3 jobs and their experience with police in Jamaica is they are black and can beat the crap out of you so you don't go near them. It depends on your country of origin. If you are born in Canada and you are a black youth your ideas on police come from American culture which popularizes gangs and an American black youth identity which distrusts

authority.

Yea...lets remind you of your positions on this board.

Why are you talking for Africans? Youve never been to Africa

Youve never been to Jamaica

Youve never been toWest Indies.

So why are you talking for them?

Good for the goose, good for the gander.Hypocrite.

Its complex. All the stereotypes in the world can be poked and shown to be untrue including anything I said.

Is this so you can back peddle on the rights violations you like to see ? Or is it to cover the immature and unfounded conclusions you come to without ever visiting these places?

.

Cyber its not helpful injecting your own personal political views with references to stats that don't exist with due respect. If you actually had some produce them because I doubt they exist.

Wow, got some inflated sense of self here doncha ? My gawd man.....such pomposity.

The stats are there to look up.

Oh I doubt that. Edited May 1, 2015 by Guyser2

[Black Dog]

Couple things on the efficiency of this. There's no correlation between rates of carding and the rates of arrests and charges.

This squares with what we saw in New York, where nine of 10 people detained in stop and frisk incidents were completely innocent. It didn't work there, I doubt it works here. It's incumbent on the supporters of this de facto racist policy to step up and show that it actually works. That includes the new TPS chief with his absurd claims that stopping carding will lead to an increase in crime.

[Rue]

I told you in the past to be concise, so I'm not even reading past this.

I will give you an example, since you're calling me a liar. In Chicago's predominantly black neighbourhood, West Garfield Park, the incarceration rate is 42x higher than any white neighbourhood. There are numerous studies showing that white crime crime goes unpoliced and when it is policed, unconvicted, should you feel like actually looking those up. It's even worse when black people find themselves in white neighbourhoods.

http://cybergeo.revues.org/26165

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/broken-windows-disproportionately-enforced-white-neighborhoods-article-1.1931171

https://ejournals.library.ualberta.ca/index.php/cjfy/article/download/24301/18000

http://www.academia.edu/10058672/Black_Males_Perceptions_of_and_Experiences_with_the_Police_in_Toronto(This dissertation has a number of statistical techniques to evaluate police bias and disproportionate police contact)

So go ahead and apologize for calling me a liar.

I never called you a liar but you have proven that you provide information that does NOT back your allegations. What you did was take information and misrepresent it as making conclusions you did which it did not. People can read what you quoted to see you have no statistics to back up what you claimed and for that matter the info you provided does not back up what you say.

Lol. But please keep going,

[jacee]

I never called you a liar but you have proven that you provide information that does NOT back your allegations. What you did was take information and misrepresent it as making conclusions you did which it did not. People can read what you quoted to see you have no statistics to back up what you claimed and for that matter the info you provided does not back up what you say.

Lol. But please keep going,

Hunh?

Did you not read even the first link Rue?

First, this study has verified the race-and-place profiling of Blacks ...

In Toronto, BTW.

Edited May 1, 2015 by jacee

[guyser]

I never called you a liar but you have proven that you provide information that does NOT back your allegations. What you did was take information and misrepresent it as making conclusions you did which it did not. People can read what you quoted to see you have no statistics to back up what you claimed and for that matter the info you provided does not back up what you say.

Lol. But please keep going,

Says the guy who made up all kinds of facts without even a shred of evidence.

So transparent it isnt even funny.

[cybercoma]

I never called you a liar but you have proven that you provide information that does NOT back your allegations. What you did was take information and misrepresent it as making conclusions you did which it did not. People can read what you quoted to see you have no statistics to back up what you claimed and for that matter the info you provided does not back up what you say.

Lol. But please keep going,

Apology or stfu.

[guyser]

I'll take stfu for $1000 Alex.

[Rue]

I will try to respond to Black dog's comments to me.

In my original post I stated:

"Using the accusation "racism" avoids dealing with the actual issues the black community faces.It shuts down the discussion and prevents meaningful discussion as to why black youth remain unemployed at such high rates and how that makes them more likely to be on the streets at the wrong time."

His response was as follows:

"People capable of holding more than one thought in their heads at one time are able to understand that these issues are related and also distinct. Examining one in no way precludes examining the other."

His response makes no sense. At no time did I state racism was not corelated to black youth or unemployed black youth.More to the point many people when inflammed by thoughts of being racially persecuted shut down and are not logical and rational when discussing issues, in fact the rioting in Baltimore is evidence of that. That was the point being made and Black Dog has not addressed.

I stated the following comment:

"Calling the race card is used defensively to avoid painful self reflecting discussions in the black community. The black community has leaders fed up with their fellow community members using that card. They see it stopping them from being able to deal with pressing issues as some of the worst parasites in their community hide behind the race card dragging the whole community down with them.

Many concerned parents of black youth don't use the race card they actually get pissed off with it and do not want their being black termed or referenced as an excuse for being a criminal. They reject that. I have worked with such parents. I have also worked with parents who are quick to use the race card to justify their self destructive behaviour and try blame it on society."

Bl;ack Dog responded as follows:

"Now you're speaking for the whole black community now? lol"

Again his comments make no sense. Clearly they indicate I do not speak for the black community. The black community speaks for itself and we are all aware of mothers of gang victims, black associations, other associations speaking out about gang violence, crime in the black community, black on black crime, the corelation of high unemployment and lack of social services, absentee fathers and other issues particular to the black community that they discuss. I do not speak for them. They speak for themselves.

I made this statement:

"Many concerned parents of black youth don't use the race card they actually get pissed off with it and do not want their being black termed or referenced as an excuse for being a criminal. They reject that. I have worked with such parents. I have also worked with parents who are quick to use the race card to justify their self destructive behaviour and try blame it on society."

Black Dog responded as follows:

"This has nothing whatsoever to do with the racist practice of carding."

Again his response has nothing to do with the point I made and he shows he doesn't read, is not interested in reading, and is only interested in repeating what he subjectively believes and this is why I challenge Black Dog and argue he shows no credibility. To me when he does what he just did he demonstrates he is only on this forum to listen to himself.

I did not state black carding was or was not racist.

When I stated this point:

"There are issues that deal with cultural sensitivity and negative perceptions that are promoted intentionally and unintentionally in our political, social,economic and legal systems but simply throwing out the term racism is pointless."

Here is what Black Dog passes off as a response:

"Not when something is, you know, actually racist."

In responding as he does he demonstrates exactly what I challenge. So something is racist now what? How does that discuss what we need to do to address issues of inequality or discrimination? How does throwing out that name resolve anything? He demonstrates exactly the pointlessness of the word he uses. Its easy to throw out as he does. It ends discussion and its lazy, it avoids having to respond with any thought out and objectively based proposal to address racism. He stops at the accusation and thinks that passes as intelligent conversation.

When I provided a specific example of the above and a challenge to it with these words:

"Using it as a blanket method to avoid taking individual responsibility for one's actions or on the other hand to simply name call someone without suggesting alternative approaches to that "racist" behaviour are meaningless-they don't help."

He responds with:

"What are you even on about here?"

This clearly shows while he is quick to use the word racism, he has no clue how to do anything but that, cry out racism. It again shows he is a shrill, he will throw out a negative accusation but stop.

Then when I further state:

"ts easy to name call. Its not easy to come on this forum and offer alternatives. No one ever does. They stop at the racist name calling.

Go on Blackdog. Cops are racist, now what? Is that it?

You have policing suggestions?"

Does he provide any, well of course not, he responds by playing semantics:

"I didn't call cops racist. I called the practice of carding racist. Pretty simple distinction."

What a laugh. If the police engage in a racist tactic as he suggests it makes them racist. Whether the act is racist or the people engaging it are not themselves racist but engaging in racist tactics, it makes no difference to the issue being debated but hey for Black Dog throwing out an attempt to play semantics is one way to try hide he can't do anything but name call.

But hey there is always one other tactic-here is what he tries to pass as his solution to racism, poverty, unemployment, police dealing with blacks, on and on:

"stop detaining people who are not suspected of a crime or in the act of committing one. It's a simple and elegant solution to the issue of carding."

You see in BlackDog's world, everything is oh so easy. All the police are idiots, but not Black Dog. He is an expert on crime, policing, human behaviour. He has it all figured out. In fact they should bring him to Alymer Police College to lecture, and hey who needs criminologists, psychologists, law schools, lawyers, social workers when we have Black dog..you now why? He has the solution. All police have to do is be clairvoyant you see. They just have to develop a psychic ability to know when someone has actually committed a crime. Its that simple. Arrest no one. Stop no one. In Black Dog's world there is no pro active policing, there is no interaction with the community, there is no investigaton, you just magically arrest people who are guilty.

Lol. In fact Black dog in that simplistic answer evidences exactly what I challenge and find repulsive- arm chair expertise this time on policing and crime and pat, trivial, shallow meaningless comments. Right. Go on Black Dog if its so easy and elegant, provide the psychic methods for not being wrong with suspicions. Do tell.

But hey I did in my response to call you a trendy leftist which I should not have and now rettract.

You of course responded with:

"What is it with Fake Internet Lawyers that they can't follow simple discussions without going off on unrelated tangents?"

My comment was to your political opinions. Yours of course goes to my professional reputation. My professional status had nothingt o do with this post and once again you try attack me personally when you have nothing of substance to provide.

I have brought that to the moderator's attention.

You know perhaps I should not refer to you as a trendy leftist but to go as far as you did in your response speaks for itself.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Rue

[Rue]

Hunh?

Did you not read even the first link Rue?

First, this study has verified the race-and-place profiling of Blacks ...

In Toronto, BTW.

Hunh? Can you even read what I wrote and responded to? Clearly you have not. I challenged his conclusion blacks are overpoliced or that whites are not arrested simply because they are white. I never debated the above exists or is agreeable.

come on Jacee either read what I write or don't read it, but don't come on the board challenging me on something I never debated.

[Rue]

Now I will attempt to answer some of Guyser's comments:

He stated:

"We do know there are more white kids than black. So one could easily postulate that the numbers should reflect that truism and then we could break it down further if you wish."

His comment makes no sense. In the neighbourhoods where blacks are charged or arrested or carded or detained, they are the majority and because they are centralized or condensed into certain communities this explains why they would be targetted and why crime rates reflect geographic location.

In fact in communities where there are no blacks, whites are arrested. It doesn't magically stop. This is why we have to go further and examine unemployment and why the statistics on youth crime and unemployed is directly related and if blacks are more likely to be unemployed, they are more likely to commit crime or be on the streets.

Guyser stated:

"The stats show this huh? Where? I dont see any."

Well then before you post, before you respond, why don't you at least make an effort to go look or does your sense of self entitlement mean people have to feed you everything.

The statistics are there for anyone to find. Here are but a few sites I have looked at but there are so many more:

http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/city_province/story.html?id=07fd48dd-8413-4598-8f65-d9b15bd62ffe

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/raceandcrime/black-arrest-rates-highest.html

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=18647

http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/ststclsnpsht-yth/index-eng.aspx
http://www.canada.com/mapleridgetimes/news/story.html?id=6729446e-be1b-49c1-a19a-2650cc741575
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/statistics/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/crime-hot-spots-in-toronto-revealed-in-online-map-1.1237448
http://journal.cpha.ca/index.php/cjph/article/viewFile/3590/2751

Guyser stop makingc omments like Jeebus. Its common sense to understand someone unemployed has more time on their hands and so is more likely particularly when they are youth to be on the streets.

What no one but you seems to be surprised about is that when someone has no job, no career, no future, they hang on the streets, join gangs and get into trouble. Its not rocket science and neither is the corelation to absent fathers, single parent families, poverty, lack of recreational facilities, high population density, poor lighting.

The fact you do not know such information exists does not mean it does not exist. Stop saying huh and ugh ad Jeebus and go look.

You made this comment:

"Make it legal for cops to walk in your house anytime? Lets see, you say black kids are pissed off cuz they get pulled over for nothing yet its good sine a fugitive might get arrested"

No I did not say the above. I don't write with such disjointed and nonsensical references or comments. Lol I don't have time to spell check and I do garble my spelling but no I did not write the above and it was not my point, it is in fact your attempt to restate what I said.

Now you stated:

"Of all the people here, your background etc......."Papers please"....should be denounced since history has shown us why its bad."

What would a post be without you responding to me with the Jew card. My being Jewish has nothing to do with the issue but it reflects something in you that requires you to try suggest I am not a good Jew because I agree with carding.

First of all, I do not agree with carding. Had you bothered to read what I wrote you would know that. Secondly my being Jewish has nothing to do with the issue and your attempt to use it in a way to claim I should know as a Jew that Nazis carded people is stupid.

If blacks were being asked to wear special badges you bet I would defend them. However its a stupid comment because a visible minority needs no Star of David, their skin colour is their badge, and its because I am a Jew and you are not, that one zipped past your head.

Profiling people simply because they are black or anything is of course wrong at a basic fundamental level of civil right. If its used to single out only blacks and is used to discriminate and provide unfair treatment to blacks it should be questioned. Its a complex issue but its the tip of the iceberg when policing and interacting not with just blacks but all minorities, all ethnic groups, all of us.

You stated in response to carding that I:

"And yet, strangely you like it."

You again demonstrate you did not read what I wrote.

Then you stated:

"Yea...lets remind you of your positions on this board.

Why are you talking for Africans? Youve never been to Africa
Youve never been to Jamaica
Youve never been toWest Indies.

So why are you talking for them?"

Guyser these continual attempts to get personal with me only make you look absurd. To start with I have travelled to Africa, all of the West Indies, and worked with many people from both areas. That is not germain to the issues we are discussing.

Next. why would you ask me "why are you talking for them"?

You again try bait like Blck dog did. Clearly I express my opinions or that of what blacks have stated publically. I don't claim to speak for them.

I have both represented and procescuted visible minorities in court proceedings. I have worked with visible minorities in the family court system.

I have done a lot of things I do not discuss and will not discuss because its not germain to the issues we are discussing. Stop trying to get personal with me and stick to the issues.

Good for the goose, good for the gander.Hypocrite.


Is this so you can back peddle on the rights violations you like to see ? Or is it to cover the immature and unfounded conclusions you come to without ever visiting these places?

.

Wow, got some inflated sense of self here doncha ? My gawd man.....such pomposity.

Oh I doubt that.

[Black Dog]

I will try to respond to Black dog's comments to me.

And you still can't figure out the Quote function. Sigh.

His response makes no sense. At no time did I state racism was not corelated to black youth or unemployed black youth.More to the point many people when inflammed by thoughts of being racially persecuted shut down and are not logical and rational when discussing issues, in fact the rioting in Baltimore is evidence of that. That was the point being made and Black Dog has not addressed.

This response, like the original, has nothing to do with carding or this thread. But the idea that black people turn irrational and illogical when confronted by racism is an..interesting one.

Again his comments make no sense. Clearly they indicate I do not speak for the black community. The black community speaks for itself and we are all aware of mothers of gang victims, black associations, other associations speaking out about gang violence, crime in the black community, black on black crime, the corelation of high unemployment and lack of social services, absentee fathers and other issues particular to the black community that they discuss. I do not speak for them. They speak for themselves.

You know what else many members of the black community talk about? The fact that carding is racist.

Again his response has nothing to do with the point I made and he shows he doesn't read, is not interested in reading, and is only interested in repeating what he subjectively believes and this is why I challenge Black Dog and argue he shows no credibility. To me when he does what he just did he demonstrates he is only on this forum to listen to himself.

Someone is definitely not making sense in this exchange.

I did not state black carding was or was not racist.

No you just talked about how we shouldn't mention racism. Or something,. It's not too clear why you chose to wade in here because you don't seem to have much to actually say.

In responding as he does he demonstrates exactly what I challenge. So something is racist now what? How does that discuss what we need to do to address issues of inequality or discrimination? How does throwing out that name resolve anything? He demonstrates exactly the pointlessness of the word he uses. Its easy to throw out as he does. It ends discussion and its lazy, it avoids having to respond with any thought out and objectively based proposal to address racism. He stops at the accusation and thinks that passes as intelligent conversation.

Before you jumped in, the discussion was, quite specifically, about whether or not carding was, in practice, racist. It was not a discussion about "what we need to do to address issues of inequality or discrimination."

This clearly shows while he is quick to use the word racism, he has no clue how to do anything but that, cry out racism. It again shows he is a shrill, he will throw out a negative accusation but stop.

Again: try reading the discussion, get a feel for what it is people are talking about before blundering in with this crapola.

What a laugh. If the police engage in a racist tactic as he suggests it makes them racist.

No, no it doesn't. I think a person can participate in a racist system without consciously harbouring racist feelings themselves.

Whether the act is racist or the people engaging it are not themselves racist but engaging in racist tactics, it makes no difference to the issue being debated but hey for Black Dog throwing out an attempt to play semantics is one way to try hide he can't do anything but name call.

Semantics are actually very important. It's what gives words their meaning and enables people to communicate. That you reduce the concept of racism to a mere insult shows you're not on the same page as anyone else discussing this issue. And you should probably stop.

You see in BlackDog's world, everything is oh so easy. All the police are idiots, but not Black Dog. He is an expert on crime, policing, human behaviour. He has it all figured out. In fact they should bring him to Alymer Police College to lecture, and hey who needs criminologists, psychologists, law schools, lawyers, social workers when we have Black dog..you now why? He has the solution. All police have to do is be clairvoyant you see. They just have to develop a psychic ability to know when someone has actually committed a crime. Its that simple. Arrest no one. Stop no one. In Black Dog's world there is no pro active policing, there is no interaction with the community, there is no investigaton, you just magically arrest people who are guilty.

I had no idea carding was the only investigative or community engagement tool available to police. Huh.

lol. In fact Black dog in that simplistic answer evidences exactly what I challenge and find repulsive- arm chair expertise this time on policing and crime and pat, trivial, shallow meaningless comments. Right. Go on Black Dog if its so easy and elegant, provide the psychic methods for not being wrong with suspicions. Do tell.

And yet, you have said yourself that you don't support carding. Which begs the question of why you would also deprive police of their only crime solving and prevention tool.

My comment was to your political opinions. Yours of course goes to my professional reputation.

What professional reputation?

Edited May 1, 2015 by Black Dog

[guyser]

Now I will attempt to answer some of Guyser's comments:

I doubt that, probably more nonsensical pontificating.

Lets see...

He stated:

"We do know there are more white kids than black. So one could easily postulate that the numbers should reflect that truism and then we could break it down further if you wish."

His comment makes no sense. In the neighbourhoods where blacks are charged or arrested or carded or detained, they are the majority and because they are centralized or condensed into certain communities this explains why they would be targetted and why crime rates reflect geographic location.

In fact in communities where there are no blacks, whites are arrested. It doesn't magically stop. This is why we have to go further and examine unemployment and why the statistics on youth crime and unemployed is directly related and if blacks are more likely to be unemployed, they are more likely to commit crime or be on the streets.

Whites are not arrested in the same numbers as black youth, we all know that . I wonder why?

Guyser stated:

"The stats show this huh? Where? I dont see any."

Well then before you post, before you respond, why don't you at least make an effort to go look or does your sense of self entitlement mean people have to feed you everything.

So now you want to change the rules or is there a rule for rue? You make a point of chastising one for not putting in links, the same gets thrown back at you but somehow this results in self entitlement/feeding.

Damn man that is funny. Not that I am laughing 'with' you of course.

The statistics are there for anyone to find. Here are but a few sites I have looked at but there are so many more:

http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/city_province/story.html?id=07fd48dd-8413-4598-8f65-d9b15bd62ffe

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/raceandcrime/black-arrest-rates-highest.html

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=18647

http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/ststclsnpsht-yth/index-eng.aspx

http://www.canada.com/mapleridgetimes/news/story.html?id=6729446e-be1b-49c1-a19a-2650cc741575

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/statistics/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/crime-hot-spots-in-toronto-revealed-in-online-map-1.1237448

http://journal.cpha.ca/index.php/cjph/article/viewFile/3590/2751

Want stats on banana prices and Depends sales?

What the hell is all this and how does it relate?

Guyser stop makingc omments like Jeebus.

Stop posting inanities then. Simple really.

Its common sense to understand someone unemployed has more time on their hands and so is more likely particularly when they are youth to be on the streets.

What no one but you seems to be surprised about is that when someone has no job, no career, no future, they hang on the streets, join gangs and get into trouble. Its not rocket science and neither is the corelation to absent fathers, single parent families, poverty, lack of recreational facilities, high population density, poor lighting.

Oh, so is this only for black men/youth or does this include all youth?

What you said is obvious, no one including me denies that unemployed have time on their hands and the streets can be a lure.

Water is wet. Thanks....need a link for that perhaps?

The fact you do not know such information exists does not mean it does not exist. Stop saying huh and ugh ad Jeebus and go look.

We all know it exists, this is just your ploy to get out of explainging the co-relation of it all to what you are trying to post.

But you knew that and couldnt defend it so now its being mr daddy to us simpletons.

No thanks.

You made this comment:

"Make it legal for cops to walk in your house anytime? Lets see, you say black kids are pissed off cuz they get pulled over for nothing yet its good sine a fugitive might get arrested"

No I did not say the above.

Sure you did rue. Its right there above.

We know your shtick. say one thing, deny it later.

Here..."Their crime often is having a nice car.If they have no record and they have done nothing its a piss off and they are victims of profiling yes. That same unfair profiling can also be pro active policing and bring in a fugitive."

This is saying the cops can do good by violating ones rights.

Its 'unfair' but positive can result. So, your saying its pro active, yet we know it is a denial fo rights and you think its nice.

Isnt that wonderful Counsel.

I don't write with such disjointed and nonsensical references or comments.

Generally you are worse.

Now you stated:

"Of all the people here, your background etc......."Papers please"....should be denounced since history has shown us why its bad."

What would a post be without you responding to me with the Jew card. My being Jewish has nothing to do with the issue but it reflects something in you that requires you to try suggest I am not a good Jew because I agree with carding.

First of all, I do not agree with carding. Had you bothered to read what I wrote you would know that. Secondly my being Jewish has nothing to do with the issue and your attempt to use it in a way to claim I should know as a Jew that Nazis carded people is stupid.

If blacks were being asked to wear special badges you bet I would defend them. However its a stupid comment because a visible minority needs no Star of David, their skin colour is their badge, and its because I am a Jew and you are not, that one zipped past your head.

How dense are you ?

The fact that Jews disguised/refused to wear badges meant they may have a chance to go about their business.

Papers please at whim was a problem insofar that they would then get identified.

Not a hard point to get,unless of course you want to try and play the woe is me card and introduce your onw brand of bigotry.

Not the first time, but then again, we tend to get used to it.

Profiling people simply because they are black or anything is of course wrong at a basic fundamental level of civil right. If its used to single out only blacks and is used to discriminate and provide unfair treatment to blacks it should be questioned.

Well it is doofus! Thats the point.

But strangely you seem to think it...lets see what was the phrase " some good comes from it"

Its a complex issue but its the tip of the iceberg when policing and interacting not with just blacks but all minorities, all ethnic groups, all of us.

No it isnt.

Here how to rectify it. Policemen, new order, dont 'card' anymore.

Woot...done .

Then you stated:

"Yea...lets remind you of your positions on this board.

Why are you talking for Africans? Youve never been to Africa

Youve never been to Jamaica

Youve never been toWest Indies.

So why are you talking for them?"

Guyser these continual attempts to get personal with me only make you look absurd. To start with I have travelled to Africa, all of the West Indies, and worked with many people from both areas. That is not germain to the issues we are discussing.

[

Such a crybaby when your own words are tossed back inot your mug huh?

There isnt a sole on this site that cannot easily find you incessant whining about " Yourve never even been to X so how would you know? "

You wouldnt know that, nor would I know it.

But since it was good enough for you , I figured it good enough to throw back at ya.

So, to remind you once again, dont talk for Jamaicans/African/how ever since youve never been.

Got it? Hope so. Funny how YOUR words upset you so.

You again try bait like Blck dog did.

Pointing out foolishness and obvious contradictions isnt baiting. Nice try.

Clearly I express my opinions or that of what blacks have stated publically. I don't claim to speak for them.

Except when you did.

But ok, just remember when someone claims something about X you notjump in to say how would you know, never been there.

Good.

Stop trying to get personal with me and stick to the issues.

Stop taking it personally and quit yer whining, it is tiresome.

Expected, but tiresome.

[Rue]

Guyser you did not respond to the stats you asked for and your responses did not address the issues I responded to.

As for Black Dog your continued attempts to bit me with insults and inability to actually respond to the points I made other than to name call speaks for itself.

It Is quite clear accusations of racism can and do cause strong emotional reactions that are often irrational. Rioting, burning down buildings, looting, physically attacking people on the streets, etc., that behaviour speaks for itself.

Calling me racist for stating that shows Black Dog exactly my point.

You have shown by calling me racist you then feel you can avoid discussing the actual issues. Throwing out that name enables you avoid debating the issues of policing and hide behind the name calling.

Its interesting members of the black community have zero problem stating rioting does not address the problems es but not you Black Dog-you call that racist.

So Black Dog finish your absurd name calling. Tell everyone your experiences being black and why burning down buildings, looting and smashing police cars were rational acts. For someone who says I speak for blacks you have no clue of the absurdity and presumption of your position of claiming its racist to state violence is irrational. Lol.

Go on brother tell this racist. You now the one who was already racist because you claimed that I am a Zionist and therefore racist because of that. You just love the word. Continue brother.

Lol.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Rue

[Black Dog]

Guyser you did not respond to the stats you asked for and your responses did not address the issues I responded to.

As for Black Dog your continued attempts to bit me with insults and inability to actually respond to the points I made other than to name call speaks for itself.

I see you're retreating to your usual victim mode to distract from the fact you are completely incoherent.

It Is quite clear accusations of racism can and do cause strong emotional reactions that are often irrational. Rioting, burning down buildings, looting, physically attacking people on the streets, etc., that behaviour speaks for itself.

By "accusations of racism" you mean "actual racism" right?

Calling me racist for stating that shows Black Dog exactly my point.

I never called you racist. Good lord.

You have shown by calling me racist you then feel you can avoid discussing the actual issues. Throwing out that name enables you avoid debating the issues of policing and hide behind the name calling.

Where did I call you racist? I did no such thing.

Its interesting members of the black community have zero problem stating rioting does not address the problems es but not you Black Dog-you call that racist.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. At all. None of this has to do with carding. Stay on topic.

So Black Dog finish your absurd name calling. Tell everyone your experiences being black and why burning down buildings, looting and smashing police cars were rational acts. For someone who says I speak for blacks you have no clue of the absurdity and presumption of your position of claiming its racist to state violence is irrational. Lol.

You're off the rails again.

Go on brother tell this racist. You now the one who was already racist because you claimed that I am a Zionist and therefore racist because of that. You just love the word. Continue brother.

Lol.

Cite or GTFO.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Black Dog

[Rue]

"The idea that black people turn irrational and illogical when confronted by racism is an interesting one..."

Those are your words B Dog. They speak for themselves. If you now want to back pedal and suggest you were not inferring I was making a racist comment about blacks lol back pedal. Its what you do. Throw out the inference then play the who me shtick.

Also the attempt to suggest I am playing victim because I point out your baiting does not make me a victim. You don't victimize me B Dog, Lol

I see in your last post not one response to the issues. Par for the course.

"A dog with no teeth trying to bite is both absurd and sad..best to leave it alone."

unknown

[Black Dog]

"The idea that black people turn irrational and illogical when confronted by racism is an interesting one..."

Those are your words B Dog. They speak for themselves. If you now want to back pedal and suggest you were not inferring I was making a racist comment about blacks lol back pedal. Its what you do. Throw out the inference then play the who me shtick.

No reasonable person would interpret that as an accusation of racism. Again, here's what you wrote:

More to the point many people when inflammed by thoughts of being racially persecuted shut down and are not logical and rational when discussing issues, in fact the rioting in Baltimore is evidence of that.

It's quite clear that you are saying that people who think they are facing racism (in this context that would be black people) respond by abandoning logic and rationality. If you think that sounds like a racist statement, then you should take it up with the person who wrote it: you.

Nobody's buying your victim schtick. But hey if you think that's baiting, inform the mods, let's see how they feel.

Also the attempt to suggest I am playing victim because I point out your baiting does not make me a victim. You don't victimize me B Dog, Lol

I agree, you are not a victim. You just love to play one on these boards to distract attention from the indefensibility and incoherence of your arguments.

I see in your last post not one response to the issues. Par for the course.

Why would I try to discuss the issues with someone who clearly has no grasp of the discussion?

"A dog with no teeth trying to bite is both absurd and sad..best to leave it alone."

unknown

"99 per cent of quotes on the internet are misattributed or made up." - Abraham Lincoln

Edited May 5, 2015 by Black Dog

[Rue]

Black Dog thanks, you now have illustrated blatantly how you took what I stated and falsely restate it to make it sound as if I accuse anyone facing racism as illogical for being upset about that. It is a classic example of how you misrepresent and try suggest through misrepresentation I was promoting a racist stereotype.

What I stated and will state again is that the term racism is what some of us call a "red" word.When it is used, it most certainly causes many to get angry and respond with anger and stop talking. . Iit often is a word used to stop dialogue and signal violent emotional reaction. The word itself has become meaningless in the way its thrown out to avoid dialogue.

Its the context in which that word has been over used and used as a catch 22 that leads any one who does social work in a community or public relations or who has had to defuse conflicts as a mediator, lawyer, etc., to understand we know when the word comes out, its a often a sign dialogue is breaking down or has broken down.

The word "racism" is often used as a reflex reaction sound and it calls for a simplistic concept-it creates a victim and a victimizer in literally black and white terms.

The reality is in conflict there are multiple levels of social and economic factors that have become imbalanced.The police become a symbol of anything seen as powerful or unfair to those feeling powerless or unfairly treated but rarely are they the actual cause-they are certainly a symptom and often an exasperating or aggravating factor or element but only one small part of the equation.

The carding issue, the street riots in Batimore are all part of the same issues, symbols and symptoms of an elaborate mosaic of power imbalances that society and individuals struggle to contain, manage or cope with.

Simply calling these forces within society that cause the conflicts police excessive force is meaningless. Anyone can call out racism now what? As you continue to show Black Dog you are quick to join the mob and scream out, but you have no clue how to be a part of the solution and offer anything constructive to say about addressing the root causes.

See people like you and Justin will have to be a tad more substantial then that when you take power or the very people you think you understand and are one will turn on you.

Its easy to scream out racism. Now what? You gonna come out of your sheltered privileged environment and do something other than parade once a year? Lol.

The difference between us is I have bloody hands and can't wash the blood off, you wear dainty little kit gloves. Its why \I have such contempt for trendy liberalism. I have much more respect for the front line workers struggling to actually cope with it. I will drink with them any day-you I won't go near.Wouldn't want to stain your outfit.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Rue