Do we still have a 40 hour work week?

[Guest Derek L]

Well then why the back-patting for the anecdotal "I did it with just a HS diploma!" comment?

Because all Canadian (and American) children can obtain one by showing up, listening and doing their homework……a balanced starting point if you will.

[Guest Derek L]

So then your quick response of "just go get an education in these fields" is a bit too shallow, no?

Sorry, I don't follow......

[Guest Derek L]

.... and compounding the myth with faith in labour unions, government safety nets, and the "Evil 1%". I have watched the youth from other nations come into my job sector and just mop the floor with the domestic whiners who thought somebody owed them a job because of a fancy degree.

I wonder where we as a society went wrong?

[Argus]

They don't have to make "big money" to be "happy". They can make very decent money on their own terms, without any union hassles, employee headaches, or false promises. You were wrong about how many people are freelancers, and you are wrong about the past and present opportunities for people willing to take more risks for more reward.

I wasn't wrong about a bloody thing since I never even offered up a suggestion as to how many were freelancers. My point was that your eager-beaver attitude that everyone can make $200k and not worry about bosses any more was so much crap.

[bush_cheney2004]

I wasn't wrong about a bloody thing since I never even offered up a suggestion as to how many were freelancers. My point was that your eager-beaver attitude that everyone can make $200k and not worry about bosses any more was so much crap.

Wrong yet again, as clearly my reference to "Pass Go...Collect $200,000" was never stated as annual compensation. Most Americans (and all those Canadians drowning in American culture), would instantly recognize the reference to a popular board game.

Edited December 31, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Argus]

Exactly, my two nephews got into plumbing and HVAC right out of high school, did their apprenticeship and are both making ~90-110k a year, ones married and they both own a place……well both being under 30.

I of course wouldn’t expect the same outcome if they had of went to school for graphic design or 20th century women’s studies….

There are a lot of people who put years of their life into learning a trade or profession only to have technological or economic circumstances shift abruptly under their feet and throw them into the unemployment line. All those people who learned software languages, for example, only to find masses of jobs outsourced to India and subsequent salaries drastically lowered.

Then there are people whose life circumstances changed. They got married and had kids only to see the hubby dump them or die, or who had a dream to do something and thought they could make a go of it but it just didn't work out. The best singers, dancers, musicians, artists and writers in the world are completely unknown, you know, because nobody ever discovered them, or they just couldn't persevere any longer. Recall that JK Rowling was on welfare and her first Harry Potter book was turned down by virtually every publisher in the UK. If someone had offered her a job she probably would have dumped the manuscript and gone to work as a receptionist or something.

Then there is the absolute fact that most jobs, for young people, come about due to family connections, more than anything else. Second is personality. If you've got contacts and an outgoing personality, you're probably golden. If you don't, and you're shy, well, you're going to have a much harder go of it. There's so much that gets thrown into the mix as to who is and who isn't successful, and you can't just ascribe it all to 'hard work'.

[Argus]

I wonder where we as a society went wrong?

Expecting people to want to have a life outside of work, perhaps? Not producing enough desperation and despair in our workforce so that they would work incredibly long hours for incredibly low pay? Not allowing them to be whipped to encourage greater speed?

[Guest Derek L]

Then there is the absolute fact that most jobs, for young people, come about due to family connections, more than anything else. Second is personality. If you've got contacts and an outgoing personality, you're probably golden. If you don't, and you're shy, well, you're going to have a much harder go of it. There's so much that gets thrown into the mix as to who is and who isn't successful, and you can't just ascribe it all to 'hard work'.

I never suggested opportunity was the sole result of “hard work”…….I’ve no doubt that there are very hard working people in unskilled labour positions for instance, I ascribe to both personal accountability and choices made by the individual. With that, we as a moral society look after those unable to formulate important life choices, namely children and the mentally challenged.

In this case, I feel we as a society are letting down children, and more specifically teenagers, through our education system by encouraging a post-secondary, University education, as the be all and end all……Obviously it is not.

Look at the German public school system, once a student reaches 10 years of age the school system and parents focus the child into one of four “paths” (Academics, the “arts”, a general educational path likely leading to a collage diploma and finally a system to guide the rest into some sort of vocation)…..Some might think it nasty and presumptuous to “pigeon hole” a child at such an age, but I feel this a far more realistic and pragmatic approach……..

Frankly there will always be turnips and unmotivated children, is it not better to focus them onto a realistic path earlier instead of pumping them full sunshine, and in turn they take a massive debt to mail in a “easy” arts degree, only to find they’re only qualified to serve coffee or drive a city bus. In my view, false hope and expectations is the real cruel act.

[Bob Macadoo]

Wrong yet again, as clearly my reference to "Pass Go...Collect $200,000" was never stated as annual compensation. Most Americans (and all those Canadians drowning in American culture), would instantly recognize the reference to a popular board game.

Really? You're really going to stick with that? Just admit you went into hyperbole, pull yourself back from the ledge and move on.

[Guest Derek L]

Wrong yet again, as clearly my reference to "Pass Go...Collect $200,000" was never stated as annual compensation. Most Americans (and all those Canadians drowning in American culture), would instantly recognize the reference to a popular board game.

Uncle Pennybags.....is that you?

[bush_cheney2004]

Really? You're really going to stick with that? Just admit you went into hyperbole, pull yourself back from the ledge and move on.

No....it's not "hyperbole"....and I have the tax returns to prove it.

[cybercoma]

Because all Canadian (and American) children can obtain one by showing up, listening and doing their homework……a balanced starting point if you will.

Not if, as economists claim (which is false), that education is a proxy for ability.

[Guest Derek L]

Not if, as economists claim (which is false), that education is a proxy for ability.

Which economists said that? I disagree, and such a statement stands clearly with the liberal myth associated with equality…..

I feel post secondary education standards should be further heightened and geared solely towards educational merit as opposed to ones ability to pay for (or go greatly in debt) it……..All the “educational-industrial-complex” is doing presently is bastardizing their wares and pumping a whole bunch of people full of false hope and unattainable expectations.

[cybercoma]

Which economists said that?

It's a standard assumption in economic analysis and it makes sociologists cringe.

[Argus]

No....it's not "hyperbole"....and I have the tax returns to prove it.

My tax returns are bigger than your tax returns. :-P

[Guest Derek L]

It's a standard assumption in economic analysis and it makes sociologists cringe.

Well certainly not a be all or end all, education is a net benefit, but as I said, I feel many people are over educated or educated in fields that won’t translate into a viable economic return. That in my view is the problem that needs addressing for future generations.

[cybercoma]

The problem is that it's impossible for a viable economic return to exist for everyone. There's not enough resources, as long as they're being hoarded at the top.

Edited January 1, 2014 by cybercoma

[dre]

Well certainly not a be all or end all, education is a net benefit, but as I said, I feel many people are over educated or educated in fields that won’t translate into a viable economic return. That in my view is the problem that needs addressing for future generations.

Iv seen this claim made lots of times before, but Iv looked into it and found evidence for it to be lacking. Its true that people degrees in arts make less money than people with engineering degrees, and are slightly less employable, but they still make more money and are more employable than people with no degrees at all.

And its not education that dictates employment and wages its the market for labor. If we trained a million new engineers then they would also have a hard time finding work, and they would get paid less.

What we really need is broad vocational schooling in partnership with the private sector, and it should start in k12 not university or college.

[jacee]

What we really need is broad vocational schooling in partnership with the private sector, and it should start in k12 not university or college.

Like the Ontario Youth Apprenticeship Program?

http://www.oyap.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=content&PageID=2&PageCategory=1&SchoolBoardID=100

[Michael Hardner]

The problem is that it's impossible for a viable economic return to exist for everyone. There's not enough resources, as long as they're being hoarded at the top.

I'm also thinking that the current system is causing capital to sit on the sidelines, awaiting lower risks and higher returns. Meanwhile, infrastructure is not being maintained - let alone being built.

The interstate system and the space program - were these government boondoggles or did they create high paying jobs as well as benefits to private industry ?

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm also thinking that the current system is causing capital to sit on the sidelines, awaiting lower risks and higher returns. Meanwhile, infrastructure is not being maintained - let alone being built.

The interstate system and the space program - were these government boondoggles or did they create high paying jobs as well as benefits to private industry ?

Not sure how this/these would apply to Canada, and infrastructure investment is being made in the U.S., with new transportation spending.

[jacee]

Well certainly not a be all or end all, education is a net benefit, but as I said, I feel many people are over educated or educated in fields that wont translate into a viable economic return. That in my view is the problem that needs addressing for future generations.

Do you have any evidence/stats/links to support that?

I agree with dre that this really isn't much of a problem, if at all.

What is a problem is companies expecting to be able to hire on demand fully trained and experienced workers without investing anything in training or providing experience.

Are they partnering with high schools, colleges and universities? Are they providing opportunities for experience?

There's a high dropout (kickout?) rate in Alberta: Are those kids being given opportunities for work experience? Apprenticeships?

.

Edited January 2, 2014 by jacee

[TimG]

I'm also thinking that the current system is causing capital to sit on the sidelines, awaiting lower risks and higher returns. Meanwhile, infrastructure is not being maintained - let alone being built.

This is a result of the "big government rot". We have created this massive bureaucracy which has to be fed. Give the government more taxes and only a small percentage would actually go to new programs - the majority would go to increasing the pay/benefit packages of the people already employed delivering the existing programs. The end result it is very difficult to make the case for raising taxes for public infrastructure because people simply do not believe that politicians will deliver. Edited January 2, 2014 by TimG

[Wilber]

Some of it is luck. I'll take credit for making the best of some of the opportunities that came my way but for a few of them, I just happened to be in the right place at the right time. No planning on my part, they just came along and I managed to grab onto them before they got away.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... No planning on my part, they just came along and I managed to grab onto them before they got away.

But many others see opportunity come and go, never grabbing anything but bad choices. Failure to act is an act of failure.