bush_cheney2004 Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Utter drivel. You make it sound like bravery. It's not. Some people have the good fortune to have rare and in-demand technical training, that's all. I wonder how brave you'd be with just a high school diploma. Not so rare...go back and look at the numbers for Canadian freelance contractors, debunking your nonsense about the the "vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority" of people being unable to do it. Not ! BTW, I did start with "just a high school diploma". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 (edited) Utter drivel. You make it sound like bravery. It's not. Some people have the good fortune to have rare and in-demand technical training, that's all. I wonder how brave you'd be with just a high school diploma. Good fortune to have training? Seriously? Training isn't about fortune, it's about picking a trade to be trained in, and then following through to get set training. Trade schools are not particularly competitive, difficult, or expensive. It is a career path available to most able-bodied individuals that are interested in it. Edited December 30, 2013 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Good fortune to have training? Seriously? Training isn't about fortune, it's about picking a trade to be trained in, and then following through to get set training. Trade schools are not particularly competitive, difficult, or expensive. It is a career path available to most able-bodied individuals that are interested in it. You're being much to logical and reality based! Not to mention ruining his soapbox built of misconceptions and ideologically driven falsehoods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 (edited) Good fortune to have training? Seriously? Training isn't about fortune, it's about picking a trade to be trained in, and then following through to get set training. Trade schools are not particularly competitive, difficult, or expensive. It is a career path available to most able-bodied individuals that are interested in it.Your comment is predicated on the completely incorrect assumption that there are no barriers to education, training, and employment beyond will. Edited December 30, 2013 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 You're being much to logical and reality based! Not to mention ruining his soapbox built of misconceptions and ideologically driven falsehoods.Your confirmation bias on full display here. Do you have anything of substance to add? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Your comment is predicated on the completely incorrect assumption that there are no barriers to education, training, and employment beyond will. Strawman. Nobody said that there are no barriers. But there are plenty of programs and assistance in place to help overcome them. So so-called good fortune is pure drivel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted December 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Not so rare...go back and look at the numbers for Canadian freelance contractors, debunking your nonsense about the the "vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority" of people being unable to do it. Not ! BTW, I did start with "just a high school diploma". I don't need to look at the numbers. You've already admitted that even electricians can have a rough go, and that's one of those trades which is ready made for independant, contractor type work. The point I made wasn't that there weren't a lof ot freelancers, but that only a tiny percentage of them can make big money and be happy. Most drift from place to place, anxiously seeking work and constantly worried about bills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted December 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Good fortune to have training? Seriously? Training isn't about fortune, it's about picking a trade to be trained in, and then following through to get set training. Trade schools are not particularly competitive, difficult, or expensive. It is a career path available to most able-bodied individuals that are interested in it. And you think that's going to get you $200,000 a year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted December 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Strawman. Nobody said that there are no barriers. But there are plenty of programs and assistance in place to help overcome them. So so-called good fortune is pure drivel. No, it is good fortune if you're talking about, as BC was, becoming rich by being a carefree, independant contractor with fat investment porftolios and no worries or fears. If you want to go to trade school and hustle for your bucks, worried constantly about where the next job is coming from, with no benefits, no pensions, no job security, and thus no one willing to lend you much money, well yeah, plenty do that. But suggesting this is loads better than a permanent job with benefits is nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 I don't need to look at the numbers. You've already admitted that even electricians can have a rough go, and that's one of those trades which is ready made for independant, contractor type work. The point I made wasn't that there weren't a lof ot freelancers, but that only a tiny percentage of them can make big money and be happy. Most drift from place to place, anxiously seeking work and constantly worried about bills. They don't have to make "big money" to be "happy". They can make very decent money on their own terms, without any union hassles, employee headaches, or false promises. You were wrong about how many people are freelancers, and you are wrong about the past and present opportunities for people willing to take more risks for more reward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Not so rare...go back and look at the numbers for Canadian freelance contractors, debunking your nonsense about the the "vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority" of people being unable to do it. Not ! BTW, I did start with "just a high school diploma". Exactly.....and a public school one to to boot.......what maters is what you do with it after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Good fortune to have training? Seriously? Training isn't about fortune, it's about picking a trade to be trained in, and then following through to get set training. Trade schools are not particularly competitive, difficult, or expensive. It is a career path available to most able-bodied individuals that are interested in it. Exactly, my two nephews got into plumbing and HVAC right out of high school, did their apprenticeship and are both making ~90-110k a year, ones married and they both own a place……well both being under 30. I of course wouldn’t expect the same outcome if they had of went to school for graphic design or 20th century women’s studies…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 I of course wouldn’t expect the same outcome if they had of went to school for graphic design or 20th century women’s studies…. 3 points: 1) If you're going to disparage the value of general knowledge, then check your spelling before posting. 2) Graphic Design is not a general arts course, and in fact you can make more than your plumbers if talented and working independently. 3) The amount of money to be made in a career is but one consideration of many when we're assessing education and career choices. There are many who built empires on general knowledge, only because they had it in them to do so. Pissing on somebody for studying Women's Studies is every bit as snobbish and arrogant as somebody making a comment about guys who get shit on their hands for a living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 (edited) 3 points: 1) If you're going to disparage the value of general knowledge, then check your spelling before posting. 2) Graphic Design is not a general arts course, and in fact you can make more than your plumbers if talented and working independently. 3) The amount of money to be made in a career is but one consideration of many when we're assessing education and career choices. There are many who built empires on general knowledge, only because they had it in them to do so. Pissing on somebody for studying Women's Studies is every bit as snobbish and arrogant as somebody making a comment about guys who get shit on their hands for a living. But are we not talking about the financial well being of an individual in this day and age and the inability for many to work independently and/or in rewarding fields? If people are making a good living in the field of arts & crafts or with the knowledge of what folks did in the past, hey……all the power to them!!! I will ask though if anyone has any data correlating the educational background of the currently unemployed or underemployed. How many have trades or technical backgrounds? How many have an education in a given science? And what of “general knowledge” or the “creative arts” ? I think if one of these categories represents a large portion of the impoverished, we as society are doing them a great disservice by subsidizing the abject failure of these educational and career choices. Time to take the bubble wrap off..... Edited December 30, 2013 by Derek L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 I will ask though if anyone has any data correlating the educational background of the currently unemployed or underemployed. How many have trades or technical backgrounds? How many have an education in a given science? And what of “general knowledge” or the “creative arts” ? As of late, the trade school vocational graduates are doing much better in the U.S. according to a Rutgers study: In the past, high school graduates went to college to get jobs that required a postgraduate degree, with the assumption that these jobs would bring bigger paychecks. But college graduates have earned an average starting salary of $27,000 since 2009, versus $42,000 for trade school graduates. http://www.businessinsider.com/alternatives-to-college-trade-school-unemployment-2012-10 A skilled CNC machine operator can walk into most any job market and find well paying employment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 (edited) I will ask though if anyone has any data correlating the educational background of the currently unemployed or underemployed. How many have trades or technical backgrounds? How many have an education in a given science? And what of “general knowledge” or the “creative arts” ? I think if one of these categories represents a large portion of the impoverished, we as society are doing them a great disservice by subsidizing the abject failure of these educational and career choices. Time to take the bubble wrap off..... As they say about wanting something done..... http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/why-are-so-many-of-canada-s-young-people-out-of-work-1.1370260 In fact, most "underemployment" these days isn't kids coming to terms with not being a rock star or professional hockey player and facing the reality of the working world. It’s young adults who had practical goals of being lawyers, teachers and medical care workers — and who went through extensive training and education to do so — having to settle into low-skilled jobs that can barely cover their bills and multiple-degrees-worth of student loan payments. The average post-secondary graduate is now carrying $28,000 in student loan debt, but many millennials aren't able to find a way to start the careers they’ve invested so much to prepare themselves for. Based on data from Statistics Canada, one in four millennials with a university degree is employed full-time in a job that doesn't require that level of education. From the FP: http://business.financialpost.com/2013/08/26/the-value-of-education-is-dropping-fast-for-university-graduates/ Those with arts degrees are earning ~12% less with their student loans factored in then high school students… From the G&M: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/canada-competes/why-are-we-training-our-arts-grads-to-be-baristas/article4507579/ The two tiers are miles apart; ask any grad from Canada’s top business or engineering programs and they will tell you that they have no trouble finding work. Now ask any other student. Aside from connections or luck, they are facing a completely different labour market, where it’s extremely difficult to find meaningful work. Edited December 30, 2013 by Derek L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Strawman. Nobody said that there are no barriers. But there are plenty of programs and assistance in place to help overcome them. So so-called good fortune is pure drivel.It's not a strawman, Shady. Do you have any idea what a stramwan is? I'm not making up an argument. I'm saying that his argument requires one to believe that there are no barriers to getting the training one needs. There are many, regardless of programs. A person's health, ability, geographic location, financial means, access to transportation, access to childcare, social connections, and simply desire are just a handful that I can name off the top of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Exactly.....and a public school one to to boot.......what maters is what you do with it after.What matters in this conversation is, as Argus already pointed out, that your personal experiences do not generalize to everyone else and especially are not applicable to a different generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 As of late, the trade school vocational graduates are doing much better in the U.S. according to a Rutgers study: In the past, high school graduates went to college to get jobs that required a postgraduate degree, with the assumption that these jobs would bring bigger paychecks. But college graduates have earned an average starting salary of $27,000 since 2009, versus $42,000 for trade school graduates. http://www.businessinsider.com/alternatives-to-college-trade-school-unemployment-2012-10 A skilled CNC machine operator can walk into most any job market and find well paying employment. Exactly, we’re perpetrating a myth upon the youth in our respected societies today………Like the advent of child car seats or those frustrating lids on the aspirin, it’s high time we either/or up the prerequisites for these arts programs and stop subsidising them through student loans or we accept that our coffee servers and gardeners are well versed in Karl Marx, drama and French poetry…….meanwhile we’ll bring in the youth from other countries to fill those required, high paying, technical roles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 So what happens when the market is flooded with business school and engineering graduates because no one is taking psychology, economics, journalism, or sociology any more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 What matters in this conversation is, as Argus already pointed out, that your personal experiences do not generalize to everyone else and especially are not applicable to a different generation. I never said that they did.......clearly if that were the case, we wouldn't have university grads working at Tim Horton’s or living in their parents basements into their 30s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 So what happens when the market is flooded with business school and engineering graduates because no one is taking psychology, economics, journalism, or sociology any more? You only need a basic understanding in economics to know that answer….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Well then why the back-patting for the anecdotal "I did it with just a HS diploma!" comment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 You only need a basic understanding in economics to know that answer…..So then your quick response of "just go get an education in these fields" is a bit too shallow, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Exactly, we’re perpetrating a myth upon the youth in our respected societies today………Like the advent of child car seats or those frustrating lids on the aspirin, it’s high time we either/or up the prerequisites for these arts programs and stop subsidising them through student loans or we accept that our coffee servers and gardeners are well versed in Karl Marx, drama and French poetry…….meanwhile we’ll bring in the youth from other countries to fill those required, high paying, technical roles. .... and compounding the myth with faith in labour unions, government safety nets, and the "Evil 1%". I have watched the youth from other nations come into my job sector and just mop the floor with the domestic whiners who thought somebody owed them a job because of a fancy degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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