No jobs? Why so many channels?

[Bonam]

Having the brokest generation in recent history paying for luxurious retirements for the richest generation in human history is not a discussion we have had in Canada. But it's a discussion we ought to have.

The whole generation boomers vs millenials thing is BS. There's not really such a thing as a generation. People are born continuously, not in discrete clumps. There's just as much difference between 2 people born 5 years apart whether they both fit into the same "generation" or into different ones. There is nothing magical about the arbitrary cutoff dates people have used to define "generations".

Anyway, economic success is as much available for the taking now as it ever has been, and so is economic failure. How to achieve economic success is changing. The times are changing. But they are always changing, and always have been and always will be. People have to adapt.

Paying into ponzi schemes that we'll never see a dime back from like CPP or Social Security is certainly a burden, true, but people in all times throughout history have borne one unjust burden or another. Other "generations" have borne the burden of wars that claimed millions of lives, plagues, depressions. Today, our burden is government programs that we will never benefit from. Other generations throughout history, too, have borne high taxes for programs from which they would never benefit. Certainly we should seek to change such policies, but they are hardly the end of the world, hardly impassable barriers, hardly reasons to give up and surrender to being a victim.

I think the real struggle of our time, of the coming two decades or so, will be the struggle to prevent Western democracies from degenerating into police states.

[Guest Derek L]

The cost of homes has risen far faster than income during my lifetime. College tuitions have risen even faster than housing prices. Those are the facts, and they won't change regardless of how much you people try and dismiss or dodge the issue with crappy arguments like "kids feel so entitled these days" or "yeah well when I was a kid we slept on a bunk bed in a single room and we didn't have iPods".

Certainly the cost of houses has risen more than inflation……..Of course the typical family home has also greatly increased in size and complexity…….

As to college and university tuition prices, in my view, that shouldn’t be an actual factor and should be looked at as one of, if not the most important investment an individual can make…….It’s just that many today appear to be “investing” poorly……..Why would someone invest 50k for a BA to try and get a job that pays 50k a year annually, when there are shortages of skilled trades, trades that pay 75k+ a year and only require an investment of ~5k in trade schooling…..

I can only assume you're queuing up more of The Worst Generation's favorite lines, like "when I was your age, I didn't have no college education, I started in the mail room and worked my way up to Vice President in charge of Employee Benefits for the Mid West region" and "I don't understand what the big deal with student loans is, when I was in college I paid my tuition by getting a summer job. Why don't kids these days just get summer jobs?"

Not at all, both my wife and I went to University and strangely enough, went into fields directly related to our education………One has to wonder about those that feel receiving an education in 20th century Women’s studies or French Literature was a worthwhile investment.

My contributions to CPP aren't paying for my future security, they're paying for yours. I'll never see a cent of it; it's wasted money for me. The people who'll be paying into CPP by the time I'm ready to retire aren't even born yet, and they're apparently going to be earning a living making YouTube videos, so the best I can hope for from CPP is cat-food coupons once I reach 87. You people have your employer pension plans plus CPP, all I've got is what I can sock away right now.

-k

Where do the contributions that I pay go?

[Guest Derek L]

I'd be able to save my money a lot faster if I wasn't paying for Derek's retirement. Saving is a lot easier for people who didn't need massive student loans to get an education, and lifetime mortgages to afford homes.

It’s sounds as if you think I (and people my age) didn’t contribute for decades to CPP………Funny enough, “when I was your age” we also joked that if one was to rely on CPP to retire they’d best enjoy Fancy Feast…..

[Guest Derek L]

And likewise, I'm not operating the assumption that I will be able to "cash out" on the back of some future generation when I decide to downsize. I won't be downsizing; my 1br apartment is about as downsized as can be, short of moving into a travel trailer, car, or garbage can. Hopefully it doesn't come down to that.

But once again, when my parents bought their first home 30 years agi they got a 3br home with a big yard in the middle of a fast growing city on a mortgage that could be paid off in under 10 years (while supporting a family of 4 on a single income). Today that's completely unrealistic. That would be science fiction if it happened today.

I’m sorry Kimmy, but I think you don’t actually realize “how good you’ve got it”……The wife and I didn’t buy our first home until we were in our late 30s, fore our late 20s and early 30s saw us being financially tapped with the costs associated with continuing our educations and two little yard apes eating and crapping all the time………

[Guest Derek L]

The whole generation boomers vs millenials thing is BS. There's not really such a thing as a generation. People are born continuously, not in discrete clumps. There's just as much difference between 2 people born 5 years apart whether they both fit into the same "generation" or into different ones. There is nothing magical about the arbitrary cutoff dates people have used to define "generations".

Anyway, economic success is as much available for the taking now as it ever has been, and so is economic failure. How to achieve economic success is changing. The times are changing. But they are always changing, and always have been and always will be. People have to adapt.

Very well said Bonam.

[BC_chick]

As to college and university tuition prices, in my view, that shouldn’t be an actual factor and should be looked at as one of, if not the most important investment an individual can make…….It’s just that many today appear to be “investing” poorly……..Why would someone invest 50k for a BA to try and get a job that pays 50k a year annually, when there are shortages of skilled trades, trades that pay 75k+ a year and only require an investment of ~5k in trade schooling…..

Not at all, both my wife and I went to University and strangely enough, went into fields directly related to our education………One has to wonder about those that feel receiving an education in 20th century Women’s studies or French Literature was a worthwhile investment.

A BA alone is not supposed to be vocational so the earning potential is minimal. Im not sure where you're coming up with 50k figure, I'd peg it much lower.

However, when people receive a BA it's usually with the intention that there is more schooling after: Law, MBA, Education, Accounting certification.

Trades are good (great actually) in you 20's and 30's but its a bit tougher when you're older.

So yes, strictly as a ROI, university may not seem like a good economic decision, but considering the intangible benefits in later life, I think it becomes more attractive to some people.

[Guest Derek L]

Right on....I certainly don't feel sorry for these spoiled brats who expect that education should be cheap/free and they should be able to buy a home right out of school. Most have no idea what it was like generations ago and have delusions of immediate gratification.

Certainly………The wife and I weren’t able to breath a sigh of financial relief until our early 40s …….And then I look at my cousins two sons that are in their 20s, and both working in the Plumbing/Pipefitting/HVAC trades and are making 90k-110k a year and then contrast with my sisters eldest, the same age group, that is a professional student still living at home……..

It all comes down to personal choices……..And I’m the first to admit, before I got married, I pissed away money on all sorts of stupid things (nights out on the piss, gambling, a swanky stereo and of course, a Corvette) and wouldn’t have two cents to rub together nearly a week before payday…..but I also think that’s what your 20s were for, to get it all out of your system before getting married and becoming “respectable”……..Today it seems like some are either still getting it all out into their 30s or the opposite extreme, wanting it all in their 20s…….

Oh well, hopefully they’ll figure out the formula that’s right for them…….

[Guest Derek L]

A BA alone is not supposed to be vocational so the earning potential is minimal. Im not sure where you're coming up with 50k figure, I'd peg it much lower.

A conversation with my sister over a new teacher on her staff that’s in debt 50k to make ~50k…….

However, when people receive a BA it's usually with the intention that there is more schooling after: Law, MBA, Education, Accounting certification.

Of course.

Trades are good (great actually) in you 20's and 30's but its a bit tougher when you're older.

My uncle, the said boy's grandpa, is in his 70s and still installing hot water tanks and fixing toilets and taps......

I certainly wouldn’t care if either of my children eventually got into the trades…….for some, there seems a negative stigma, but when a plumber or electrician charge as much as a lawyer, with only a fraction in terms of schooling costs, I don’t know why more people are not getting into them…….

So yes, strictly as a ROI, university may not seem like a good economic decision, but considering the intangible benefits in later life, I think it becomes more attractive to some people.

I’d never state University isn’t a good investment, as long as one picks the right field of study.

[BC_chick]

Derek, you seem to think the 'right field of study' is anything but a BA whereas you agreed that it opens the door for many other educational opportunities. So it cant be all that wrong.

And of course there is more prestige to a white collar job but if you're not hung up on these things and you don't mind being physical then for sure the trades are a better investment. I can't argue with that. However people like your uncle are more of a rarity than the norm.

It does seem a bit ironic to me though that you berate any group of people for their choice of study while espousing that society is too hung up on labels.

Bit of a reverse-snobbery wouldn't you say?

[Guest Derek L]

Derek, you seem to think the 'right field of study' is anything but a BA whereas you agreed that it opens the door for many other educational opportunities. So it cant be all that wrong.

Not at all…..there are certainly BA’s that are worth having and this is evident by those that obtained them and are gainfully employed today…….As I can’t stress enough, it all comes down to personal choices.

And of course there is more prestige to a white collar job but if you're not hung up on these things and you don't mind being physical then for sure the trades are a better investment. I can't argue with that. However people like your uncle are more of a rarity than the norm.

Perhaps perceived prestige…….I’d say both my cousin’s boys owning homes in their twenties is not too shabby……

And though I agree that my old uncle is not the norm, as I’m sure you’ve heard in numerous fields, a goodly percent are made up of baby-boomers approaching retirement….Still using the plumber example, I’d think that once all these old fellows retire and their numbers are not replaced in-kind, those still in the industry will have a licence to print money.

It does seem a bit ironic to me though that you berate any group of people for their choice of study while espousing that society is too hung up on labels.

I apologise if I wasn’t clear, but I had hoped that my criticism was clearly conveyed towards those that have an education but can’t find a job related to their field of study, and in turn, are “mad at the world”.

Bit of a reverse-snobbery wouldn't you say?

I don't see it, how do you figure?

[Michael Hardner]

You people have your employer pension plans plus CPP, all I've got is what I can sock away right now.

-k

No, it's not fair. You're coming up at the tail end of an economic way of life.

Part of that is postsecondary education. It's still worthwhile, but also expensive. You have to make your choices carefully.

[BC_chick]

Not at all…..there are certainly BA’s that are worth having and this is evident by those that obtained them and are gainfully employed today…….As I can’t stress enough, it all comes down to personal choices.

Perhaps perceived prestige…….I’d say both my cousin’s boys owning homes in their twenties is not too shabby……

And though I agree that my old uncle is not the norm, as I’m sure you’ve heard in numerous fields, a goodly percent are made up of baby-boomers approaching retirement….Still using the plumber example, I’d think that once all these old fellows retire and their numbers are not replaced in-kind, those still in the industry will have a licence to print money.

I apologise if I wasn’t clear, but I had hoped that my criticism was clearly conveyed towards those that have an education but can’t find a job related to their field of study, and in turn, are “mad at the world”.

I don't see it, how do you figure?

I'm not sure which BA you're referring to that is better than the others, they all require some kind of further education. And as far as university goes, a BA is one of the only degree that I can think of that is not vocational. If I'm misinterpreting you, I would love to know which BA you find is a worthwhile area of study just as a stand-alone degree.

As for the prestige, I agree that it's perceived prestige if the bottom line and ROI are all that are important to you. However, if the length and cost of study to be lawyer was the same as that of a tradesman, I'm inclined to believe that the world would be saturated with lawyers and not a fraction of the current tradespeople that we have.

Of course we would still have lots of tradesman who can't fathom the thought of sitting at a desk all day and getting dressed in a monkey suit with uncomfortable shoes, but still, the current scales would tip because physical exertion takes on the body over the years.

So while social prestige doesn't make sense from a economic perspective, it comes from a point of practicality as well. It's not just historical context of the privileged having access to education.

As for your berating a group of people - your comment about 'mad at the world' is pretty mocking in its nature. Sure, a lot of BA students underestimated the level of dedication that it would entail to continue studying after receiving their degree (myself included), but mad at the world is hardly an accurate description. We all knew that a BA in itself wouldn't be enough.

I find that your mocking is at the same level of looking down at someone for choosing trades even if that person may make a great amount of money. "Mad at the world' and 'useless degree' is pretty much the flip-side of calling someone a 'hillbilly' even if the person earns six figures annually.

You're making generalizations and not flattering ones. Also, you're mocking people's personal choices just because they run opposite of your own set of values.

[Guest Derek L]

I'm not sure which BA you're referring to that is better than the others, they all require some kind of further education. And as far as university goes, a BA is one of the only degree that I can think of that is not vocational. If I'm misinterpreting you, I would love to know which BA you find is a worthwhile area of study just as a stand-alone degree.

As for the prestige, I agree that it's perceived prestige if the bottom line and ROI are all that are important to you. However, if the length and cost of study to be lawyer was the same as that of a tradesman, I'm inclined to believe that the world would be saturated with lawyers and not a fraction of the current tradespeople that we have.

Of course we would still have lots of tradesman who can't fathom the thought of sitting at a desk all day and getting dressed in a monkey suit with uncomfortable shoes, but still, the current scales would tip because physical exertion takes on the body over the years.

So while social prestige doesn't make sense from a economic perspective, it comes from a point of practicality as well. It's not just historical context of the privileged having access to education.

As for your berating a group of people - your comment about 'mad at the world' is pretty mocking in its nature. Sure, a lot of BA students underestimated the level of dedication that it would entail to continue studying after receiving their degree (myself included), but mad at the world is hardly an accurate description. We all knew that a BA in itself wouldn't be enough.

I find that your mocking is at the same level of looking down at someone for choosing trades even if that person may make a great amount of money. "Mad at the world' and 'useless degree' is pretty much the flip-side of calling someone a 'hillbilly' even if the person earns six figures annually.

You're making generalizations and not flattering ones. Also, you're mocking people's personal choices just because they run opposite of your own set of values.

As I said several times, an education, any education, is a beneficial factor if one is able translate that into a worthwhile job……..Any implied generalizations are directed at those with a degree that are unable to put it to use in the job market, and are left waiting tables or working at a gas station and living in their parents basements…….

And what is more unflattering, paying taxes that are used to heavily subsidize Universities and student loans for those with useless educations and to then hear said students blame their problems on others, or to point out this failed practice…….

Perhaps we could create a “Hero Project” for such folks and allow them to put together a study correlating the number of over educated Canadians in pedestrian jobs versus the number of vacancies within the trades, healthcare and engineering disciplines.

Or would that be too mean spirited and unfashionable in today’s bubble wrapped society?

[eyeball]

If "a rising tide raises all boats", when is our boat going to start rising instead of slowly taking on water?

-k

When we get a better handle on the sheer amount of venality, corruption and incompetence that exists in the governance of our country and management of our economy and especially our natural resources. My biggest regret was not appreciating just how much these would affect some of the economic and career decisions I made in life. As the saying goes ignorance is no excuse but c'mon, I was in one of those TV ads displaying happy kids celebrating our centennial, waving flags and singing "Ca-na-da, 1 little 2 little 3 Canadians, we love thee". I was convinced, Canada was the best country in the world. Colour me stupid I guess.

A few years later I hitch-hiked out to the coast, went logging and fishing, got married, had kids, bought a fish boat and was living the dream until it turned into a nightmare. I don't know if I helped my situation by becoming an activist for change once things really started turning to crap but I learned a lot, I even went back to school. Activism became a central feature of my existence for about 7 years. I think I tried my hardest but I'm sorry I couldn't do more. I think I might have lost heart but there were family circumstances and stuff that forced a realignment of priorities. At some point the windmill I was charging resolved into something more like a mile high wall of advancing ice stretching from horizon to horizon. Maybe once I'm finally dug out I'll get back into trying to whittle it down again.

Of all the things I think our generation is not leaving behind for the future to work with it's a decent form of governance with some integrity. It's an inter-generational theft of the worst kind given how much better we should know. It probably wouldn't take much to radicalize me now that I have a grand-daughter who has to grow up under the godforsaken mess we've left behind.

All this surveillance-state shit that's floating in on the rising tide on top of everything else sure feels like it should be the last straw.

[GostHacked]

I'd be able to save my money a lot faster if I wasn't paying for Derek's retirement. Saving is a lot easier for people who didn't need massive student loans to get an education, and lifetime mortgages to afford homes.

Took m3 8 years to pay off my student loans. That was about 30Gs. You cannot afford one 10 years after graduation let alone right out of graduation.

[GostHacked]

No, it's not fair. You're coming up at the tail end of an economic way of life.

Part of that is postsecondary education. It's still worthwhile, but also expensive. You have to make your choices carefully.

The current work force is not contributing as much to the CPP as my parents generation. Kimmy is right, there will not be enough money for a retirement of any kind. There is not enough money now because those retiring now are banking on me working for the next 20-30 years. Huge companies are doing major layoffs, I was let go 3 months ago.

Here is a scenario to show that even compared to 10 years ago. The company I used to work for has outsourced their IT department extensively over the past 5 years. Some who were let go come back as contractors. Right off the bat they are earning much less than before, and now they have to take care of their own benefits. They reduced their internal IT workforce by at least half. And sent some of the jobs to India.

The money is not getting pumped back into CPP from the current workforce. Since we still have a national debt, I fail to see where this money is going to come from? Then that begs the question of where the money was going to come from to begin with?

Things in Europe recently (Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece ect) show that the money won't be there. A case like Detroit going bankrupt, retirement savings were cut by at least 40%. Detroit has not been able to pay it's current bills, let alone pay for retirement.

[GostHacked]

Of all the things I think our generation is not leaving behind for the future to work with it's a decent form of governance with some integrity. It's an inter-generational theft of the worst kind given how much better we should know. It probably wouldn't take much to radicalize me now that I have a grand-daughter who has to grow up under the godforsaken mess we've left behind.

All this surveillance-state shit that's floating in on the rising tide on top of everything else sure feels like it should be the last straw.

Summed up my thoughts pretty well here.

[Michael Hardner]

The current work force is not contributing as much to the CPP as my parents generation. Kimmy is right, there will not be enough money for a retirement of any kind. There is not enough money now because those retiring now are banking on me working for the next 20-30 years. Huge companies are doing major layoffs, I was let go 3 months ago.

This doesn't surprise me but I would like to see a cite.

The money is not getting pumped back into CPP from the current workforce. Since we still have a national debt, I fail to see where this money is going to come from? Then that begs the question of where the money was going to come from to begin with?

The money was going to come from increasing wages and population over time. Population has gone up but wages have now.

Where is the money going to come from ? The government is supposed to be ensuring that the benefits of trade are distributed but they haven't done a good job of that so far.

Things in Europe recently (Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece ect) show that the money won't be there. A case like Detroit going bankrupt, retirement savings were cut by at least 40%. Detroit has not been able to pay it's current bills, let alone pay for retirement.

Detroit has depopulated, though. Canada hasn't done that at least, although the anti-immigration set would like to see that happen.

I'm sorry to hear you were let go, however you were probably one of the last ones to go - and you shouldn't have to do what I had to do to get by. ( I was a self-employed contractor who lost their career to offshoring in 1999)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ciocentral/2012/12/28/the-death-of-outsourcing-and-other-it-management-trends/

Forbes magazine is declaring offshoring dead, about 15 years after it started in earnest. We have nowhere to go but up in this field.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....Forbes magazine is declaring offshoring dead, about 15 years after it started in earnest. We have nowhere to go but up in this field.

Not for Ontario....plants are closing down routinely now because of self inflicted gunshot wounds by Liberal leadership. The Americans will take their exported jobs back.

[GostHacked]

This doesn't surprise me but I would like to see a cite.

It would not convince you anyways.

The money was going to come from increasing wages and population over time. Population has gone up but wages have now.

Companies are cutting back on workforces, lowering their payout by outsourcing and contracting. Shareholders are still making the cash, but at the cost of jobs and careers.

Where is the money going to come from ? The government is supposed to be ensuring that the benefits of trade are distributed but they haven't done a good job of that so far.

Where does the money come from now?How is our national debt? Getting any lower?

Detroit has depopulated, though. Canada hasn't done that at least, although the anti-immigration set would like to see that happen.

Detroit was run into the ground, people left because of how the city was run. We can look at bright ideas like a new half a billion dollar spots stadium to revitalize Detroit's economy. Yeah these guys are thinking this through. But no matter if people move or not, if people are not making money, not only is the government not making money, it is now supporting those people through UI and wellfare. More money going out than coming in. Eventually that catches up to you. That time is fast approaching.

I'm sorry to hear you were let go, however you were probably one of the last ones to go - and you shouldn't have to do what I had to do to get by. ( I was a self-employed contractor who lost their career to offshoring in 1999)

Nope, lay offs continue in all sectors of that company, and when the merger happens, you are going to see massive layoffs on both sides. Unless they are doing that now to prepare for it.

Part of it was me trying to get my team more ability and access to systems so we could do our jobs properly. But the company was battling for years to get rid of my position and others in that position. I had one boss that fought tooth and nail to keep us valid and up to date and make us indispensable. Now that he was let go last year, things quickly changed and we were under the gun once more. My bosses did not like how vocal I was about things. I was let go with the reason of restructuring.

I gave a damn about my job but the way some things were run did not allow me to eventually not give a damn. When close to $50,000 of IT equipment went missing, no one gave a damn. Nothing would allow me to hold anyone accountable for the missing items. The daily tracking of the equipment was not done by the group that was responsible for it on a daily basis. No matter how many times I brought it up or tried to do something about it. And over time the job turned to ticket count (quantity, metrics) and not quality of work. The job used to be fun and enjoyable because I could get my hands dirty fixing cables, switches, servers. But in the end it turned into an IT babysitting job. Contractors would fix the servers, India would make the changes to the software and I would stand there doing nothing but acting as a go between.

Forbes magazine is declaring offshoring dead, about 15 years after it started in earnest. We have nowhere to go but up in this field.

Offshoring is not dead. The only way offshoring would reduce is through automation. But then not only am I out of a job, that poor sucker in India (where people claim that outsourcing increases the standard of living in those countries) is out of a job as well. A machine costs little to maintain in the long run, less than a low wage earner in India, or a high wage earner here in Canada and can work 24/7.

So if automation is coming, you are going to see massive layoffs. A large amount of people are going to have to rediscover themselves and adapt to a new society/economy. My personal experience with automation implementation has seen workforces reduced because of increased productivity. I've seen close to 3000 jobs in a span of 2-3 years, just simply vanish.

Apparently this is already a concern for people finishing up high school or college/university. Massive debt for school, and a decreasing amount of decent paying jobs in that field.

Edited December 16, 2013 by GostHacked

[Michael Hardner]

Not for Ontario....plants are closing down routinely now because of self inflicted gunshot wounds by Liberal leadership. The Americans will take their exported jobs back.

Not for Ontario... and actually not for manufacturing. For IT only.

[Michael Hardner]

It would not convince you anyways.

I'm not sure why you would say that. I'm definitely convinced by factual evidence.

Companies are cutting back on workforces, lowering their payout by outsourcing and contracting. Shareholders are still making the cash, but at the cost of jobs and careers.

Where does the money come from now?How is our national debt? Getting any lower?

It's tricky to talk about national debt during a recession like this, but generally over time debt as a % of GDP has gone down since the 90s - with the exception of the recession.

Nope, lay offs continue in all sectors of that company, and when the merger happens, you are going to see massive layoffs on both sides. Unless they are doing that now to prepare for it.

I don't know about *your* company, sorry - I was talking about the IT sector in general.

Offshoring is not dead. The only way offshoring would reduce is through automation.

You clearly didn't read the cite that I provided, which is ironic given your assertion that I myself wouldn't believe a cite from you. It's not automation, it's increasing costs and a more level playing field that is killing it. Read the article and you'll learn why Forbes is declaring it dead.

[Guest Derek L]

Nope, lay offs continue in all sectors of that company, and when the merger happens, you are going to see massive layoffs on both sides. Unless they are doing that now to prepare for it.

Part of it was me trying to get my team more ability and access to systems so we could do our jobs properly. But the company was battling for years to get rid of my position and others in that position. I had one boss that fought tooth and nail to keep us valid and up to date and make us indispensable. Now that he was let go last year, things quickly changed and we were under the gun once more. My bosses did not like how vocal I was about things. I was let go with the reason of restructuring.

I gave a damn about my job but the way some things were run did not allow me to eventually not give a damn. When close to $50,000 of IT equipment went missing, no one gave a damn. Nothing would allow me to hold anyone accountable for the missing items. The daily tracking of the equipment was not done by the group that was responsible for it on a daily basis. No matter how many times I brought it up or tried to do something about it. And over time the job turned to ticket count (quantity, metrics) and not quality of work. The job used to be fun and enjoyable because I could get my hands dirty fixing cables, switches, servers. But in the end it turned into an IT babysitting job. Contractors would fix the servers, India would make the changes to the software and I would stand there doing nothing but acting as a go between.

Sorry to hear that you lost your job…….but in the three paragraphs you paint why it is you and your coworkers were let go…….If you were in charge of the company and you had tens of thousands of dollars in equipment “go missing” and a workforce doing nothing, wouldn’t you look towards cheaper options?

Edited December 16, 2013 by Derek L

[GostHacked]

Sorry to hear that you lost your job…….but in the three paragraphs you paint why it is you and your coworkers were let go…….If you were in charge of the company and you had tens of thousands of dollars in equipment “go missing” and a workforce doing nothing, wouldn’t you look towards cheaper options?

I'll try to keep it short and move on to the issue at hand.

I was responsible for about 2 million bucks worth of IT equipment. If I had that much equipment go missing, I would at least try to find out what happened to it. Which I did. I grabbed the logged user information for each unit and handed that in to supervision. The type of equipment is expensive and only a very limited number of companies offer that kind of technology (voice recognition, voice commands) I was not getting much assistance or cooperation from supervision. I could not make anyone responsible for it, or accountable and my bosses were not able to assist to change the process, they tried, but failure was imminent. The people I supported did not have the right focus either in some cases. No worries about 50Gs in equipment, but when I sent obsolete items to another location as they could use it, I was approached and asked if they could have gotten money for it. The total of that stuff was about 200 bucks. A drop in their million dollar plus monthly budget.

Because of not getting any help I blew my top one day which got me into trouble, but I was at the end of my rope.

In certain applications and equipment there are no cheap alternatives. Wearable voice recognition equipment, forklift mounted rugged computers and scanners. They did save some money by going with a printer other than what was recommended to work with the new production environments. A printer that was less than a 3rd of the price was put into place because it could handle the specific protocol.

Yes there are cheaper alternatives for some of the items, but not loosing them also saves money. I've also seen the supervision make an employee pay for a unit he deliberately smashed when that unit was procured out of IT Capitol. They did not pay for it.

I've seen some horrible decisions made within the company and some of those decisions they are going to wear long term. Politics and egos get in the way often. I've seen one manager throw his entire team under the bus.

Alright I'll stop there as I could fill a couple pages.

But the shareholders are happy regardless. And that is what seems to count these days with large corporations.

[GostHacked]

I don't know about *your* company, sorry - I was talking about the IT sector in general.

All companies are doing this. Going 3rd party for their IT support and processes. The help desk was outsourced to IBM and it took them over a year and a half to make ALL their monthly targets. I asked the VP one time how much it's going to cost to get another 3rd party in when IBM fails. I could see the question made him uncomfortable as I got a canned response. Then through the grapevine I heard they were tendering contracts for a new entity to operate the help desk. From what I heard is that IBM low balled the price and then jacked it up part way through. That's just dirty pool. In the end not sure if the company saved any money at all.

IT is getting outsourced to the point where the company no longer has a control over their IT part of the business. Depending on 3rd party entities to do everything. And as soon as those IT companies need to increase their profits, they will charge more. Shopping around for cheaper solutions is a full time career.

Also, if you meet your budget for the year, you get it cut down next year. Because you can always cut more.