PTSD, and the Military

[Army Guy]

the key question I have for you is, why would a CAF member needing help, not look for that help... help that appears to exist within CAF? To me, this speaks to the CDS emphasizing self-stigma within the above video. Is there a different degree of self-stigma for a CAF military person than might exist within the general public? If a CAF member comes forward, and seeks assistance... how might, or how does that action, if extrapolated into a resulting medical mental health issue diagnosis, impact career placement/advancement within the military? Is a military member undergoing treatment, or successfully treated, viewed any different or treated any different by the CAF employer... than might exist within an employer-employee relationship in the general public?

again, those sources are (principally) CAF sourced statements/studies/reports... they are not "my" sources. I added in the published U.S. military focused study because it's recognized as the largest study of military personnel ever done... it was focused on 2001-2008, with obvious emphasis on combat within the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

It's a good question, for serveral reasons, it is carear ending, Military is not a job but a life style, for the most part we get to do things that most only dream about, fly planes,jump from planes,drive tanks, boats and ships, blow shit up, be part of a team of people that think and live the same. We are talking about A type personalities, that eat this shit up....Yes we know that there is the ugly side, war and death and destruction, but really how often is that asked of us....It's like being an indy car driver, as long as you can do the job your a super star, as soon as you can't who wants to hire a used Indy car driver....

Supporting our families, times are tough even tougher in certain parts of the country, a Cpl making 50 k a year is going to find it tough finding anything in the maritimes paying anything close to that..Next to being a soldier all i ever wanted to be was a dad, a father to support a wife and kids....not many employers will look at a guy with mental health problems....bringing home the beacon is another driving figure.

Starting new is starting from scratch not many companies hiring tank drivers, or Airbourne infantry soldiers. so a whole new skill set is required...meaning schooling all the while supporting a family....I know welcome to the real world...alot of people have over come this problem...yes they have but have they had PTSD....that puts a whole new dimension to it.

[Army Guy]

Is there a different degree of self-stigma for a CAF military person than might exist within the general public?

Sure there is , most of these guys are Warriors, been in Combat, lived in conditions that would make a rat puke, hauled a 140 lb rucksack through the mountains, they as tough as your going to get, and they know that...like i said it's veiwed as a weakness in one self.

If a CAF member comes forward, and seeks assistance... how might, or how does that action, if extrapolated into a resulting medical mental health issue diagnosis, impact career placement/advancement within the military?

Your carear is put on hold,unitl you heal of course it depends on just how severe your mental health issues are. the more treatment you require means time away from the job. spend to much time away, then your carear will start to slide. someone else will be brought in, you'll be forwared to a unit that is call JPSU, this unit is where they go to allow you the treatment and time to heal...we call it the place people go to disappear...not many people come back from JPSU, they for the most part end up released.

Is a military member undergoing treatment, or successfully treated, viewed any different or treated any different by the CAF employer

I would have to say yes. to those under going treatment. and no to those that have been successfully treated.

[Army Guy]

We werent too concerned about the physical requirements since she played div 1 U18 soccer, but her getting up at ass-crack of dawn and functioning with little sleep fostered a tad bit of angst.What MOC did yours end up in? Follow her fathers path and become a death-tech?

I hear you there, use to start her training at 0430 AM , nothing like a good morning jog in minus 20 to build some character, or hear her character.....What MOC ....No fickin way would i want her to be infantry, don't get me wrong i love the corp but that does not mean i want my daughter to be one of them.....not in this life time, She's an Admin clerk in Pet, bad enough shes married a RCD guy...

[waldo]

Army Guy, thanks for taking the time to respond with the most obvious and direct knowledge/perspective any of us can bring forward ... I'll digest your replies and if I can add anything further, I'll do so.

[Guest Derek L]

I joined over 30 years ago, when mental health was a 4 letter word, rarely did you hear of anyone have issues with it. i say rarely in the latter stages of Yugo was when it became known and even then an indiv soldier might know of one or two cases. Today a Plt of 30 guys 10 might have various mental health issues. And while that may be because there is more education on the topic, and more efforts to change the stima of mental health problems.

Perhaps i did not discribe it enough, but as well in drops in Phyiscal standards, there is a equal drop in mental standards. recruits are not stressed to the breaking pionts any more, it is much more relaxed.

Exactly my point, and from (carbon) dating yourself, I see we had a similar experience……You by chance do time in Chilliwack and stroll along the seasonal Vedder road?

When i joined our instructor staff would be A WO, SGT, 4 MCPL, and 8 Senior Cpls, all would tag team the recruits to ensure stress and phyiscal levels were always at there peak that was for 130 recruits, of which only 60 or less would graduate. today instructor staffing is half of that, and 100 to 110 will graduate.

Stress levels were kept up for a reason, to weed out the weak,the lone wolfs, and the mental unstable giving recruits minimum sleep, 2 to 4 hours a night, head games,lots of head games telling recruits the truck is around the corner after marching for 10 kms already only to round the corner and see NO truck, and march the remaining 10 kms back into camp.... Today there is only enough stress placed on the recruits as the weakest man can handle...

Sounds familiar……but in fairness to most, something that has to have been witnessed first hand to fully comprehend…..I’d liken it to that old Sean Connery movie “The Hill” with a bit of R. Lee Ermey’s character from FMJ, of course we had numerous assholes and not just one.

How does this translate into more mental health issues, thats easy alot of those guys would have been weeded out in the recruit process, or further trades training.

Exactly...........but for those that were not weeded out, and suffered in silence as they say, I’d assume there would be a direct correlation to the then higher rates (as compared to today) of alcoholism and divorce within the Forces.

[Guest Derek L]

The self stigma,will always be there until DND or the Government does something about it. Most mental health issues are carear ending. Even more so now with cut backs being thrown around force redutions being talked about. these guys are being treated for maybe 2 years on the outside then asked to move on...wait until the cut backs arrive, these guys will be one of the first to go.

But to be brutally honest, especially in the case of officers and senior NCOs, can the Forces be expected to “trust” a member with serious mental health issues down the road………remove that trust and with it goes the Esprit de corps…

[Guest Derek L]

I hear you there, use to start her training at 0430 AM , nothing like a good morning jog in minus 20 to build some character, or hear her character.....What MOC ....No fickin way would i want her to be infantry, don't get me wrong i love the corp but that does not mean i want my daughter to be one of them.....not in this life time, She's an Admin clerk in Pet, bad enough shes married a RCD guy...

The Dragoons are a sorted bunch.......Not as dastardly as the lot found within LdSH……..something has to be wrong with that regiment, they let my brother in and kept him for nearly 25 years

Mine’s got a few more years in Kingston and then off to Saint-Jean to learn Franglish….then Portage La Prairie to learn the benefits of light blue, 3 hot meals and clean sheets well deployed

[Army Guy]

But to be brutally honest, especially in the case of officers and senior NCOs, can the Forces be expected to “trust” a member with serious mental health issues down the road………remove that trust and with it goes the Esprit de corps…

This is my opinion, i think alot of PTSD can be treated over time, by that i mean 4 to 6 years...i know of alot of cases that have served on the battle field with honor, Those that did not come forward and decided to live with it....

Alot of trades can serve any where for that matter, out of trade postings, such as the schools if their case is not that bad, or RSM assistant, there is plenty of low stress postings that could give these guys the time the need, to recover...I know mental health repeatily says it is a recoverable sickness, i'm just not sure to what piont. or what event would cause a relapse or if that is possiable.....

Currently up to a full 15 to 20 % of our current numbers have medical issues/ restrictions those include mental health problems...that's a huge chunk taken of the top and 65 k it is that big of a number to start with. pehaps the CF should not count these guys in there effective strength, making them the exception.

Derek , I'm on the fence on this...I know what has to be done to protect DND's final personal counts. But on the over hand some of these guys i've shared the same battlefield with, and are brothers in arms.

[Rue]

Good to hear from Army back on the board and my respect to him for his eloquent words and respect to those

who responded with their words.

Army you know where I stand. The services we have for veterans is shoddy. Huge cut backs have led to that.

What we do not have and there is no point avoiding it head on are sufficient or even existing support services

for veterans who returned from Afghanistan or for that matter the civil war in former Yugoslavia or the fiasco

in Africa with Rwanda and Burundi, etc.

What we do now know is returning soldiers work best and respond better not one on one with a psychiatrist but

in a group setting with other vets.

They also respond extremely well to therapy models where they work with a dog or horse.

Soldiers were not trained to feel when they get out there. In Afghanistan they would go from extreme boredom to extreme

life on the line I could get it from a mine any second low and highs. This constant switch on switch off from low to high

causes over a period of time and some say as short as 6 constant weeks, a permanent phenomena that is both

psychological but neurological. Its a bit of both. Its not just an emotional issue but a physical one.

The body under so much stress breaks down certain chemicals and is unable to reproduce them, The chemicals it

does generate from the extreme highs and lows we now know leads to cancer, heart disease, dementia, diabetes,

and other physical ailments.

In regards to psychiatric phenomena the post traumatic syndrome with soldiers has familiarities to what we see with correctional service guards, police, fire, emergency personnel, nurses, doctors. Its unique to itself but it has other similiarities. What we do know

is a smell, a sound, a witnessing of some event, a taste of some food, even watching something in a movie or on t.v. or being

bumped in a crowd can trigger it off.

What we also know is soldiers with it have major problems sleeping and to be specific engaging in rapid eye movement. Their

metabolism changes as well meaning they do not digest certain foods the same way and as a result experience all kinds of

digestive problems and vitamin deficiencies that further aggravate their symptoms of lack of energy, feeling anxious,etc.

PTSD is not curable in the sense you do not give it a magic pill. It is like being an alcoholic-you always have it and what you can do is learn to cope and manage it and identify what triggers it.

Each patient is different. Some need medication, others need hospitalization, and mostneed a combination of medication and cognitive therapy, that is to say talking out loud to identify what feelings they have, why those feelings are not abnormal, and how to avoid stressors that trigger them.

Soldiers are trained to repress their feelings otherwise they could kill themselves or someone else. So when they return having to learn about feelings and even admitting them is asking them to do the exact opposite of what they were trained or can be when they function as a soldier. So it is not easy.

Right now what we desperately need is a non profit organization not the government, a non profit organization not controlled by the government or the military to be funded to take on the task of providing a set up of support networks for soldiers who can join these groups without having their dignity and privacy violated and where they can work with each other.

I would also like to see them put into groups with police officers, nurses, paramedics, and firefighters with the same issues.

They can help each other and provide valuable insights as what counselors facilitating these groups can record and write in

counselling manuals to be researched and borrowed for reference for future groups.

At Christmas time, suicide rates go up. It can be a very trying time for soldiers who have struggled on their return.

I wish all soldiers struggling with their issues well and I hope more conversation and discussion will bring more attention to this issue

and result in more coordinated efforts to set up support groups for soldiers.

It is a disgrace that we are not there for them on their return. We waste enough government money. Its time we put it to better use.

[Guest Derek L]

This is my opinion, i think alot of PTSD can be treated over time, by that i mean 4 to 6 years...i know of alot of cases that have served on the battle field with honor, Those that did not come forward and decided to live with it....

Alot of trades can serve any where for that matter, out of trade postings, such as the schools if their case is not that bad, or RSM assistant, there is plenty of low stress postings that could give these guys the time the need, to recover...I know mental health repeatily says it is a recoverable sickness, i'm just not sure to what piont. or what event would cause a relapse or if that is possiable.....

But in times of decreasing budgets, is posting members suffering mental and physical debilities a viable approach? If we have a Combat Arms Major or a Chief Petty Officer suffering from PTSD do we retread them into the purple trades? What of the Captains and Leading Seamen within those trades, do their careers then suffer because we’ve parachuted in some higher ranking folks from other trades? And what of the Forces? Can we expect a former Armour Major to excel at logistics or that CPO to pick up on a given administrative role?

I’d have no issues with these folks, if able, taking over from deployable members within training postings, but really how many of these postings are there?

Currently up to a full 15 to 20 % of our current numbers have medical issues/ restrictions those include mental health problems...that's a huge chunk taken of the top and 65 k it is that big of a number to start with. pehaps the CF should not count these guys in there effective strength, making them the exception.

I think there should be a reasonable amount of time allotted for these members to heal, both physically and mentally and if able rejoin their trades, and with younger/lower rank members given the option to change MOCs, but at then end of the day, a carpenter that can no longer swing a hammer isn’t a carpenter anymore.

It might not seem fair, but neither is life.

Derek , I'm on the fence on this...I know what has to be done to protect DND's final personal counts. But on the over hand some of these guys i've shared the same battlefield with, and are brothers in arms.

But as I’m sure you’re aware, on signing that dotted line, there is an expectation of all members in submitting to “Unlimited Liability” on joining the Forces....

[Wilber]

Balaclava got all the notoriety but Inkerman was the soldiers battle.

[Guest Derek L]

Balaclava got all the notoriety but Inkerman was the soldiers battle.

Certainly, but with Balaclava (and the Charge in particular) you have a classic demonstration of military ethos:

"Ours is not to reason why. Ours is but to do and die"

Clearly a creed that a military has to embrace, no mater how foolish at times, if not, you have nothing but an armed mob…….And to tie this into this topic, the well being of the Forces as a whole has to be maintained even at the determinant of some individuals, well on the other hand, also curtailing negative moral…then throw in finite financial resources and you’ve got an obviously tricky balancing act.

[Big Guy]

Perhaps General Patton exemplified military ethos - perhaps not;

"Be seated.

Men, all this stuff you hear about America not wanting to fight, wanting to stay out of the war, is a lot of bullshit. Americans love to fight. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle. When you were kids, you all admired the champion marble shooter, the fastest runner, the big-league ball players and the toughest boxers. Americans love a winner and will not tolerate a loser. Americans play to win all the time. That's why Americans have never lost and will never lose a war. The very thought of losing is hateful to Americans. Battle is the most significant competitions in which a man can indulge. It brings out all that is best and it removes all that is base.

You are not all going to die. Only two percent of you right here today would be killed in a major battle. Every man is scared in his first action. If he says he's not, he's a goddamn liar. But the real hero is the man who fights even though he's scared. Some men will get over their fright in a minute under fire, some take an hour, and for some it takes days. But the real man never lets his fear of death overpower his honor, his sense of duty to his country, and his innate manhood.

All through your army career you men have bitched about what you call 'this chicken-shit drilling.' That is all for a purpose—to ensure instant obedience to orders and to create constant alertness. This must be bred into every soldier. I don't give a fuck for a man who is not always on his toes. But the drilling has made veterans of all you men. You are ready! A man has to be alert all the time if he expects to keep on breathing. If not, some German son-of-a-bitch will sneak up behind him and beat him to death with a sock full of shit. There are four hundred neatly marked graves in Sicily, all because one man went to sleep on the job—but they are German graves, because we caught the bastard asleep before his officer did.

An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, and fights as a team. This individual hero stuff is bullshit. The bilious bastards who write that stuff for the Saturday Evening Post don't know any more about real battle than they do about fucking. And we have the best team—we have the finest food and equipment, the best spirit and the best men in the world. Why, by God, I actually pity these poor bastards we're going up against.

All the real heroes are not storybook combat fighters. Every single man in the army plays a vital role. So don't ever let up. Don't ever think that your job is unimportant. What if every truck driver decided that he didn't like the whine of the shells and turned yellow and jumped headlong into a ditch? That cowardly bastard could say to himself, 'Hell, they won't miss me, just one man in thousands.' What if every man said that? Where in the hell would we be then? No, thank God, Americans don't say that. Every man does his job. Every man is important. The ordnance men are needed to supply the guns, the quartermaster is needed to bring up the food and clothes for us because where we are going there isn't a hell of a lot to steal. Every last damn man in the mess hall, even the one who boils the water to keep us from getting the GI shits, has a job to do.

Each man must think not only of himself, but think of his buddy fighting alongside him. We don't want yellow cowards in the army. They should be killed off like flies. If not, they will go back home after the war, goddamn cowards, and breed more cowards. The brave men will breed more brave men. Kill off the goddamn cowards and we'll have a nation of brave men.

One of the bravest men I saw in the African campaign was on a telegraph pole in the midst of furious fire while we were moving toward Tunis. I stopped and asked him what the hell he was doing up there. He answered, 'Fixing the wire, sir.' 'Isn't it a little unhealthy up there right now?' I asked. 'Yes sir, but this goddamn wire has got to be fixed.' I asked, 'Don't those planes strafing the road bother you?' And he answered, 'No sir, but you sure as hell do.' Now, there was a real soldier. A real man. A man who devoted all he had to his duty, no matter how great the odds, no matter how seemingly insignificant his duty appeared at the time.

And you should have seen the trucks on the road to Gabès. Those drivers were magnificent. All day and all night they crawled along those son-of-a-bitch roads, never stopping, never deviating from their course with shells bursting all around them. Many of the men drove over 40 consecutive hours. We got through on good old American guts. These were not combat men. But they were soldiers with a job to do. They were part of a team. Without them the fight would have been lost.

Sure, we all want to go home. We want to get this war over with. But you can't win a war lying down. The quickest way to get it over with is to get the bastards who started it. We want to get the hell over there and clean the goddamn thing up, and then get at those purple-pissing Japs. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. So keep moving. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper-hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler.

When a man is lying in a shell hole, if he just stays there all day, a Boche will get him eventually. The hell with that. My men don't dig foxholes. Foxholes only slow up an offensive. Keep moving. We'll win this war, but we'll win it only by fighting and showing the Germans that we've got more guts than they have or ever will have. We're not just going to shoot the bastards, we're going to rip out their living goddamned guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy Hun cocksuckers by the bushel-fucking-basket.

Some of you men are wondering whether or not you'll chicken out under fire. Don't worry about it. I can assure you that you'll all do your duty. War is a bloody business, a killing business. The Nazis are the enemy. Wade into them, spill their blood or they will spill yours. Shoot them in the guts. Rip open their belly. When shells are hitting all around you and you wipe the dirt from your face and you realize that it's not dirt, it's the blood and gut of what was once your best friend, you'll know what to do.

I don't want any messages saying 'I'm holding my position.' We're not holding a goddamned thing. We're advancing constantly and we're not interested in holding anything except the enemy's balls. We're going to hold him by his balls and we're going to kick him in the ass; twist his balls and kick the living shit out of him all the time. Our plan of operation is to advance and keep on advancing. We're going to go through the enemy like shit through a tinhorn.

There will be some complaints that we're pushing our people too hard. I don't give a damn about such complaints. I believe that an ounce of sweat will save a gallon of blood. The harder we push, the more Germans we kill. The more Germans we kill, the fewer of our men will be killed. Pushing harder means fewer casualties. I want you all to remember that. My men don't surrender. I don't want to hear of any soldier under my command being captured unless he is hit. Even if you are hit, you can still fight. That's not just bullshit either. I want men like the lieutenant in Libya who, with a Luger against his chest, swept aside the gun with his hand, jerked his helmet off with the other and busted the hell out of the Boche with the helmet. Then he picked up the gun and he killed another German. All this time the man had a bullet through his lung. That's a man for you!

Don't forget, you don't know I'm here at all. No word of that fact is to be mentioned in any letters. The world is not supposed to know what the hell they did with me. I'm not supposed to be commanding this army. I'm not even supposed to be in England. Let the first bastards to find out be the goddamned Germans. Some day, I want them to rise up on their piss-soaked hind legs and howl 'Ach! It's the goddamned Third Army and that son-of-a-bitch Patton again!'

Then there's one thing you men will be able to say when this war is over and you get back home. Thirty years from now when you're sitting by your fireside with your grandson on your knee and he asks, 'What did you do in the great World War Two?' You won't have to cough and say, 'Well, your granddaddy shoveled shit in Louisiana.' No sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say 'Son, your granddaddy rode with the great Third Army and a son-of-a-goddamned-bitch named George Patton!

All right, you sons of bitches. You know how I feel. I'll be proud to lead you wonderful guys in battle any time, anywhere. That's all."

[Rue]

Not sure if General Patton is anything but a Hollywood invention. That macho persona is far from the officers

I know.

Most officers I know, for that matter, most soldiers I know don't talk or act that way. Usually I found the most impressive

of the lot are quiet as hell. They talk with their body posture and eyes.

I know guys that have said more than enough with one look or a grunt.

I am not sure where this idea comes from that soldiers talk a lot and are full of this exterior bravado behaviour.

The veterans I witnessed especially in the air force were so damn tight lipped I could swear they never opened their

mouths.

Maybe my father's generation were different but they never talked about themselves nor did they brag or act tough.

The soldiers I know that came back from Vietnam and the former Yugoslavia were not loud.

I don't claim to know all soldiers but I will go out on a limb and say Canadian soldiers are modest as a general rule.

I don't claim to know how they speak with each other in private when they can let it down but no these guys are not

Patton types of piss and vinegar crap. That is showmanship. In fact I don't know of any British or Canadian soldier like that

I have met. The only American soldiers I know tend to be very patriotic but not even like that. I know Marines and regular soldiers

and not one of them was a piss and vinegar actor.

I knew a guy who had a stroke coming back from Iraq. He was proud of his uniform but he was not a jerk about it.

The Israeli soldiers I know are too complex to describe. Their are civilian soldiers and their are professional soldiers.

Neither act macho stupid. If anything they will kick your ass if you give stupid attitude about what has to be done.

All that said I am uncomfortable with the way movies depict soldiers and I think that contributes to the misunderstanding

of their jobs and lifestyles.

These are people we ask to step in when we fail. They are the last line before society completely breaks down.

We are asking them today to be social workers, nurses, teachers, mediators, all kinds of things that conflict with what

they are trained for.

On the one hand we train them to be prepared to kill and save the soldier to the left or right of them with their own life at a split second if need be and resist all their emotions of fear and anger which could cloud their judgement then at the same time ask them to

be peace makers, calm role models, walk into crowds of potential hostile terrorists and smile and be civil.

We've asked them to stand and do nothing as thousands were killed in front of their faces. We have asked them to walk by and not

react as they see men screwing boys.

We have asked them to stay calm and internalize what they see in terms of inhumanity.

They you wonder why they have ptsd?

When soldiers came back after any war including WW1, WW2, Korea,Vietnam, etc., they called it battle fatigue and no one really dealt with it. The soldiers went back into civilian life and their problems went underground but they were always there.

The alcoholism, suicide, domestic violence, I insomnia, mental illness, it was all there. No one discussed it too much.

After WW2 the way to deal with it was to treat the wives of the returning soldiers not the soldiers. Family doctors prescribed valium, Librium, thalidomide to wives who would tell the doctors they were depressed and anxious because they had no idea how to handle the issues with their husbands.

In fact we created drugged out housewives and at one point the miracle drug thalidomide caused numerous birth defects.

Our record with returning war veterans has always been bad. Always.

We have had to have soldiers battle, literally battle to get their governments to acknowledge their struggles as they return home.

We did get knowledgeable about developing artificial limbs yes, but battle fatigue? Call it what you want it was always there but it

was an intangible. It dealt with feelings and soldiers like police, fire, nurses, emergency front line responders, were told, buck it up

baby. Keep a stiff upper lip.

My friend committed suicide because of what he had to do. He was going to be a New York cop when he returned. He was just a normal guy in all respects. I am a typical man though. I figured because he was a bug guy, could bench press, always seemed to have a smile on his face, that he was a better man than me and I envied him. I have always admired men with no emotions-just tough and calm. Its the way many of us were taught. Calm and modest men who stand straight inspire. Emotional men do not.

Its not just particular to the armed forces its a code of men in many places.

Its hard to talk about but I will say this-I never met a soldier I did not respect for deciding to put on the uniform. Maybe it is because my father was a professional and volunteer soldier and it was the most important thing in his life. Maybe it is because the people I saw growing up like him had a code. It was a code of decency.

But I say this-their ptsd issue now, is not new. It is not a matter of Patton like behaviour. Its a whole complex set of issues and it probably deals with the conflicting things we want a soldier to be for us as a society when we fail and ask them to step in and

clean up the mess.

In a way we dump all our failures on them and ask them to care-take them. We give them a gun and train them to kill and then in the next breath say, stand their and make nice too.

Just the act of asking soldiers to be police officers in extended term occupations is a conflict of their role.

Asking them to fight an enemy that dresses and operates hiding behind civilians is a new form of war we did not necessarily have in the past.

We have evolved past a code of war that was once played out into a world where anything goes. We no longer have conventions

of behaviour in war. Terrorists have stripped away any remaining rules of decency and make it impossible for a soldier to

really know if what they are doing is real or not. That line between morality and immorality, good and evil was erased by terrorism

and we civilians who when soldiers return refer to terrorists as freedom fighters and glorify them. It is a back-handed and unintentional slap at soldiers.

A soldier returns today and sees we civilians glorifying terrorists and war and so I say its no wonder they have problems adjusting.

I have no answers only to say, soldiers on their return need a period of time to adjust and then should be able to have a place they can go until they die where they can deal with their memories, conflicts, issues and not have to feel humiliated or morally judged when they do so.

I think eventually we will get it right and a non profit network will rise and be able to support vets while respecting their dignity and

privacy and where they can feel safe to say what is on their minds and unload the conflicting messages we dumped on them.

Hope that makes sense because when I read a Derek or Army Guy talking I hear modesty, nothing else. I just want them once not to have to explain themselves and just know they are respected with a simple nod.

I think the greatest respect we can show them is just a nod and silence. So I say with so many words.

[Guest Derek L]

Not sure if General Patton is anything but a Hollywood invention. That macho persona is far from the officers

I know.

--------

I don't claim to know how they speak with each other in private when they can let it down but no these guys are not

Patton types of piss and vinegar crap. That is showmanship. In fact I don't know of any British or Canadian soldier like that

I have met. The only American soldiers I know tend to be very patriotic but not even like that. I know Marines and regular soldiers

and not one of them was a piss and vinegar actor.

There were most certainly credible British and Canadian military commanders, of the same Patton like persona…..They just didn’t get a movie made about them, and in turn, the same notoriety……such fate has even befallen prominent Americans of that era like Chesty Puller or Matthew Ridgeway…..

[Wilber]

There were most certainly credible British and Canadian military commanders, of the same Patton like persona…..They just didn’t get a movie made about them, and in turn, the same notoriety……such fate has even befallen prominent Americans of that era like Chesty Puller or Matthew Ridgeway…..

Montgomery for sure. He always dressed to make an impression on someone with this different head gear and twin hat badges.

On the other hand, some consider William Slim to be the best of them all as a commander of men, but hardly anyone has heard of him because he commanded the 14th Army in Burma, which became known as the Forgotten Army.

[Guest Derek L]

Montgomery for sure. He always dressed to make an impression on someone with this different head gear and twin hat badges.

On the other hand, some consider William Slim to be the best of them all as a commander of men, but hardly anyone has heard of him because he commanded the 14th Army in Burma, which became known as the Forgotten Army.

And our Canadian version, Lieutenant General Guy Simonds, being almost a mix of Montgomery and Patton........

[Rue]

Yes I suppose Monty is the one Field Marshall everyone thinks of. But for every Patton was a Bradley or Eisenhower.

I appreciate some bluster was required for morale but I personally think guys like Patton and Marshall were overblown egomaniacs.

Patton to me was a bafoon-he and MacArthur were showboaters and in the grand scheme of things they were their own worst enemy.

Good soldiers die anonymously they need no attention. our greatest heroes remain unknown and their is something

noble about that in my opinion. I saw some soldiers at Queen Mary;s Hospital in Montreal.WW1 vets. Missing limbs and lung disease.

At first I was afraid to go near them. All that coughing and one guy with no legs and missing one arm and burns.

Took me awhile to figure out he was smiling at me and appreciated me visiting. He never talked. Just smiled.

These guys I always wondered-did they have families, wives, dreams, hopes? I could not imagine coming home and just that is it for the rest of their life they sat on their moving tables that brought them out in the sun...that was it.

I think my father's point kicked in. Those are the people to remember. My father was no Patton or MacArthur fan. In our house there

was Churchill, period.

[Talby]

I don't claim to know all soldiers but I will go out on a limb and say Canadian soldiers are modest as a general rule.

The general rule is that Canadian soldiers/airmen/sailors are like any cross section of Canadian society. Not sure of the precise figure, but it hovers about 60,000 currently employed. People are modest as a general rule, so they are as well, I wouldn't be too quick to impart qualities beyond the average joey Canada. It's all case by case.

The media, when it suits them likes to ignore that rule, and public often buy into it. In the 90's, before the great Afghan war, the media spin for those who remember, was to vilify anything DND....all fallout from the Somalia thingy. I recall articles about 'rapists' and "spousal abuse" most of it alleged, spun up as if they were rampant and part of the accepted culture. Then in 2002, 4 dudes got blown up by yanks, and out came the "hero' spin, the exact opposite, the CF and its members could do no wrong. The forces members were all of a sudden altruistic idealists, pure as driven snow, deserved of free coffee Timmies. It was the 'feel good' angle for about 7 years.

Fortunately that is starting to whither away now as yesterdays trend. Both trends I found equally annoying, not a fan of pigeon holing you might say. And for the latter trend, I assure you there are as many in the forces that lap it up, and buy into it also, in an effort of self gratification, as there are who dismiss it for what it is. Anyone who went to Afghanistan got paid well, and knew what they were getting into, and the risks.

But none of that detracts from the point- the guys who came back broken are in some cases getting screwed by the DND/Veterans Affairs/Government in a trifecta of incompetence and indifference.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Talby

[waldo]

well... this Harper Conservative government certainly "talks a good talk"!

did the unkept Peter MacKay promises to increase mental health staff contribute to the rash of recent Canadian military personnel suicides?

Canadian armed forces’ mental health facilities across the country are chronically short of skilled professionals and aren't close to the staffing levels promised in 2012 by then defence minister Peter MacKay, the Citizen has learned.

In what was billed as an “important announcement” MacKay held a media event at Canadian Forces Base Halifax in the fall of 2012 amid early waves of criticism about the military’s handling of its increasing number of mentally injured Afghanistan veterans.

“Our government is committed to supporting our men and women in uniform,” he said.

Recent military suicides:

• Nov. 25, 2013: Master Bombardier Travis Halmrast
• Nov. 26, 2013: Master Cpl. William Elliott
• Nov. 27, 2013: Warrant Officer Michael Robert McNeil
• Dec. 3, 2013: Master Cpl. Sylvain Lelievre
• Dec. 25, 2013: Retired Cpl. Leona MacEachern
• Jan. 3, 2014: Cpl. Adam Eckhardt
• Jan. 8, 2014: Cpl. Camilo Sanhueza-Martinez
• Jan. 16, 2014: Lt.-Col. Stephane Beauchemin

Many close to the military mental health system believe that not all suicides are reported as such, partly because of family wishes and because some deaths are made to look like accidents to disguise the soldier’s true intent.

[Big Guy]

The attempt to address the disabilities caused by PTSD in the military has been bogged down by the difficulty in diagnosing it in the individual. There are many definitions and self tests on line which will show one how almost anyone can claim to suffer from that disability. Like many other social services and resources open to the legitimate sufferer they are often abused by those looking for a guaranteed long term income. That is human nature. In my area we recently had an industrial accident where a worker was crushed on the factory floor. To date, of the 6 people working on that floor, 5 have claimed to be suffering from PTSD. It seems that it may be one of those mental illnesses where if you think that you are suffering from it then you are suffering from it.

I would be interesting to find out how many Afghanistan vets are claiming to be suffering from that disability and what percentage that represents of all the vets - and how that compares to police officers and firemen.

[PIK]

Now the truth is coming out, and I feel some vets are going to be embarressed when they realized they were used as pawns by PSAC and the media especially the CBC. Yes fantino is a idiot and should step down, but when you start hearing the union paid for the vets to come as long as they trashed the government. On CFRA yesterday the host nick who is a vet was wild about what was going on and today after he realized what was really going on was wild about that. Alot of vets were phoning in telling of there great experiances with the VA and most never ever went to a office , you just call the 800 number and the service is great. It is time for people in this country and this board to pull their heads out of your arses and look a little deeper into these things before you scream for the governments head. Can the gov do a better job of course, but it is not as bad as certain groups want you to believe. Time for people to demand that these unions and the media to start telling the truth instead of all the BS so they can get rid of the government and put some one in that will give into the demands again.

[waldo]

On CFRA yesterday the host nick who is a vet was wild about what was going on and today after he realized what was really going on was wild about that.

translation? Anyone?

so... you don't accept the raised concerns of that particular profiled segment of veterans? Are you stating that they're not legitimate concerns? Just what has the CBC done, this time, to have so raised your targeted ire at it... this time, yet another time?

[PIK]

translation? Anyone?

so... you don't accept the raised concerns of that particular profiled segment of veterans? Are you stating that they're not legitimate concerns? Just what has the CBC done, this time, to have so raised your targeted ire at it... this time, yet another time?

This is a set up by the media and unions to embarress the government and they are using the vets as pawns. Understand now. As I said alot of vets have come out and said the opposite, of course there will be problems but the thing is they never gave the new system a chance to see if it works. And if the vets want to put in the liberals or NDP then fine, kiss the forces good bye.

[waldo]

This is a set up by the media and unions to embarress the government

do you have an example of your claimed "media setup"... and the resulting embarrassment you express?