The Oakville Gas Plant: Are we sufficiently outraged now?

[Boges]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mcguinty-could-have-cancelled-gas-plant-with-no-compensation-costs-audit-to-show/article14738336/

TransCanada Corp., the Calgary energy giant that had the contract to build the provinces third-largest gas-fired power plant in Oakville, faced significant impediments. Local residents of the affluent enclave west of Toronto complained the plant would be too close to neighbouring homes and schools. The Town of Oakville passed a bylaw blocking construction of the 900-megawatt plant and the mayor vowed to fight the project all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada.

I did have some concerns as to whether this project would ever be able to get a shovel in the ground, given the challenges, former energy minister Brad Duguid told a legislative committee in April probing the cancellation of two gas-fired power plants.

If the Oakville contract had run its course, according to government e-mail records released to the committee, it eventually would have been terminated due to events beyond TransCanadas control. The company would not have paid a penalty or been entitled to damages under such a scenario. But that would have taken several years to unfold.

So if we are to believe this. The Liberals incurred hundreds of millions of dollars in settling the cancellation of this plant that THEY DIDN'T NEED TO!!!! They wanted it done and over with for political expediency.

But hey Dalton McGuinty doesn't smoke crack so who cares.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Boges

[waldo]

But hey Dalton McGuinty doesn't smoke crack so who cares.

who does... smoke crack? Who are you saying smokes crack, Boges?

perhaps one should actually wait for the audit, rather than presume on it, or on a journalist's interpretation of rumours/unfounded (as of yet) claims. From what I've read (of course, also predating the audit), there's uncertainty as to what legal recourse TransCanada might have had... even your own linked article speaks to a long-winding road through the courts to some presumed end. That, on its own, suggests no 'slam dunk' ending. I expect the audit should also speak to the government's claim of costs being offset by savings.....

[Big Guy]

I am not a defender of any political party but do believe in fairness. Both the PC's and the NDP were running on a platform of closing down this initiative. When the McGuinty gov't shut down the process the opposition did not criticize the action but criticized what they saw as the reason (getting votes) for making that decision. I guess that one might argue that both the PC's and NDP, if elected, would have reneged on their promise, kept the process going and not have incurred the costs. I do not think that either party would have reneged but instead followed the same route that the Liberals eventually took – that is if you believe what the PC's and NDP promised during the election. Personally, I think that the Liberals made some poor decisions but this was not one of them.

[Boges]

I am not a defender of any political party but do believe in fairness. Both the PC's and the NDP were running on a platform of closing down this initiative. When the McGuinty gov't shut down the process the opposition did not criticize the action but criticized what they saw as the reason (getting votes) for making that decision. I guess that one might argue that both the PC's and NDP, if elected, would have reneged on their promise, kept the process going and not have incurred the costs. I do not think that either party would have reneged but instead followed the same route that the Liberals eventually took – that is if you believe what the PC's and NDP promised during the election. Personally, I think that the Liberals made some poor decisions but this was not one of them.

That's a false talking point. The PCs and the NDP never advocated for placing Gas Plants in heavily populated urban/suburban areas, the Liberals did. It didn't take a genius to figure out a community like Oakville would go all Nimby on the decision to put a plant there.

McGuinty responded to their protests about the location with derision and it wasn't until it appeared they'd lose the seat in Oakville did they finally decide to cancel the plant.

The decision for the Mississauga Plant was even more cynical as it was made during an election campaign while construction was already underway! AND construction continue for several days after the announcement was made.

[waldo]

The decision for the Mississauga Plant was even more cynical as it was made during an election campaign while construction was already underway!

nice revisionist slant you're pushing there, hey Boges!

That's right. Done. Done, done, done.

[Boges]

nice revisionist slant you're pushing there, hey Boges!

Sure, but please cite where he advocated putting the plant there in the first place.

[waldo]

Sure, but please cite where he advocated putting the plant there in the first place.

the Ontario Power Authority, as mandated, responded to a rising power demand in the area... coupled with the closing of the nearby Lakeview coal plant. Are you stating Hudak/Progressive Conservatives indicated they would ignore the rising demand requirement... and go against the analysis/recommendation of the mandated authority? Is that what your latest revisionism will bring forward, hey Boges?

[Boges]

Are you stating Hudak/Progressive Conservatives indicated they would ignore the rising demand requirement.

Well Dalton McGuinty certainly ended up doing that too didn't he? Their compromise was to build plants near Sarnia and out in Eastern Ontario. But only after incurring almost $1 billion in extra costs.

So why didn't he do that from the start? They built a plant off the 401 in Halton. Why not build one near the 407, there aren't yet densely populated areas there. There has to be plenty of better places to build a power plant then next to schools.

Why did they not build this Gas plant at the former Lakeview site or in the former Oakville Refining facility?

BTW How am I being revisionist? This is a huge scandal that caused McGuinty to step down. Added to that, if this was all cool why would the Liberals be forced to release documents they didn't want to release? And it was discovered they actually deleted a huge amount of e-mails before McGuinty officially stepped down.

If it turns out they could have gotten out of the Oakville deal without paying a penalty that would only be another aspect to this already gigantic scandal.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Boges

[Boges]

What a mess. $1.1 billion!

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/10/08/liberals_power_plant_cancellations_cost_11b_auditor_general.html

The report paints a picture of bungling from start to finish — with the Ontario Power Authority approving a proposal to build the plant in Oakville despite opposition from the local council and residents and former premier Dalton McGuinty’s office assuring TransCanada it would be fully reimbursed, ignoring “protections in that contract that could have minimized the damages.”

Compounding things, then energy minister Chris Bentley ordered TransCanada to build the new plant in Napanee “even though it would cost significantly more to transport natural gas there, and more to transmit electricity back to the southwest GTA, where the need for power exists.”

“This cost is significantly more than may have been necessary,” Lysyk concluded in her 24-page report.

“A number of questionable decisions along the way contributed to this situation,” she wrote.

Outcry over the gas-plants triggered McGuinty’s resignation on Oct. 15, 2012 and, later, Bentley’s as energy minister and London West MPP.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Boges

[The_Squid]

Clearly this was political incompetence and/or interference. There is no defending it when the Premier comes out and apologizes.

Will there be a spring election because of this?

[GostHacked]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/oakville-gas-plant-cancellation-costs-675m-ag-says-1.1930206

Costs expected to be around 675 Million, and possibly upwards of 810 Million ... For that price, JUST BUILD THE DAMN THING ALREADY!

[Boges]

Clearly this was political incompetence and/or interference. There is no defending it when the Premier comes out and apologizes.

Will there be a spring election because of this?

Horvath says she won't bring the gubiment down until next year sometime.

So yeah, Spring election.

[Boges]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/oakville-gas-plant-cancellation-costs-675m-ag-says-1.1930206Costs expected to be around 675 Million, and possibly upwards of 810 Million ... For that price, JUST BUILD THE DAMN THING ALREADY!

The Oakville plant wasn't even started. Which is why TransCanada didn't really seem to have a claim to almost a billion in damages.

[Shady]

This has to be the most corrupt provincial government Ontario has ever had the misfortune of being governed by.

[Shady]

But hey, Dalton has never been accused of smoking crack, so it's all good.

[Moonlight Graham]

1.1 billion. Holy freaking cow!! RAGE!!!!!!!

[GostHacked]

The Oakville plant wasn't even started. Which is why TransCanada didn't really seem to have a claim to almost a billion in damages.

Meaning this is a complete waste of taxpayer money. I know half a billion can be more well spend elsewhere. But now we get shafted twice for the cost with a bonus of NO power plant. That's some corrupt bullsh!t right there.

[Boges]

Meaning this is a complete waste of taxpayer money. I know half a billion can be more well spend elsewhere. But now we get shafted twice for the cost with a bonus of NO power plant. That's some corrupt bullsh!t right there.

Well part of this is the fact they moved the plant to Napanee. So there'll be greater cost to delivery the power to the GTA.

It was all about optics. They didn't want to have a fight with TransCanada. Well the optics look even worse now.

[GostHacked]

Well part of this is the fact they moved the plant to Napanee. So there'll be greater cost to delivery the power to the GTA.

It was all about optics. They didn't want to have a fight with TransCanada. Well the optics look even worse now.

I agree that a power source should be close to the city, it takes more energy to transport it over longer distances, no doubt. TransCanada Corp gets the money either way and taxpayers are on the hook.

[cybercoma]

1.1 billion. Holy freaking cow!! RAGE!!!!!!!

About the same price as the Canadian Spy Palace (CSE Offices) that Harper is building.

[Boges]

About the same price as the Canadian Spy Palace (CSE Offices) that Harper is building.

And if he cancelled building that because the people adjacent to it protested at a cost of a billion dollars I'm sure people would be upset.

[waldo]

BTW How am I being revisionist?

revisionist... and self-serving! If you claim political expediency you can't target it selectively... not when all local candidates (for all parties) campaigned to close the plants... not when Progressive Conservative Hudak himself, in the throes of the campaign, stated he would close the plants.

you can't selectively attach "political blame" to the original site selections. Site selection and RFQ review of bidding companies included participation from Ontario Power Authority, IESO and the Ontario Energy Board. You can't selectively negate the technical drivers that reflect upon significant transmission deficiencies within the GTA... that reflect upon approaching transformer lifetime gaps. You also can't selectively suggest sites should be built "well outside the GTA"... because there is as much NIMBYISM over new transmission towers/distribution lines as there is over plant site placement.

even if you want to stick to a luddite plan to continue to embrace coal generation, new generation was/is required (beyond the Lakeview coal plant). Perhaps you should step up and formally announce your want to increase/extend Ontario coal-fired electrical generation... is that what you're saying? Perhaps you should step up and go against Hudak himself... just state the plants should never have been cancelled/moved... that the objections of communities should have been outright ignored... is that what you're saying?

[Boges]

revisionist... and self-serving! If you claim political expediency you can't target it selectively... not when all local candidates (for all parties) campaigned to close the plants... not when Progressive Conservative Hudak himself, in the throes of the campaign, stated he would close the plants.

you can't selectively attach "political blame" to the original site selections. Site selection and RFQ review of bidding companies included participation from Ontario Power Authority, IESO and the Ontario Energy Board. You can't selectively negate the technical drivers that reflect upon significant transmission deficiencies within the GTA... that reflect upon approaching transformer lifetime gaps. You also can't selectively suggest sites should be built "well outside the GTA"... because there is as much NIMBYISM over new transmission towers/distribution lines as there is over plant site placement.

even if you want to stick to a luddite plan to continue to embrace coal generation, new generation was/is required (beyond the Lakeview coal plant). Perhaps you should step up and formally announce your want to increase/extend Ontario coal-fired electrical generation... is that what you're saying? Perhaps you should step up and go against Hudak himself... just state the plants should never have been cancelled/moved... that the objections of communities should have been outright ignored... is that what you're saying?

Gas Plants have been built all over this province but these two were planned in bad spots. People kept telling the Liberals that, including the opposition. McGuinty ignored all the opposition OVER and OVER again, until finally he realized they might cost him seats.

That Oakville plant was never going to be built, the town was going to sue before a shovel got put into the ground. So why the $700 million to simply cancel the plans to build the plant? The audit yesterday pretty much said the Liberals could have negated part of the cost but chose not to.

This would be like if Stephen Harper decided to buy, say F-35 fighter jets. Everyone says it's a bad idea but he does it anyway, until finally he realizes he stands to lose an election so he cancels the contract at a cost of billions of dollars. But then he says, so what the opposition would have cancelled that contract too so they can't talk.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Boges

[waldo]

Gas Plants have been built all over this province but these two were planned in bad spots. People kept telling the Liberals that, including the opposition. McGuinty ignored all the opposition OVER and OVER again, until finally he realized they might cost him seats.

citation request. Particularly one that speaks within a properly contextualized timeline... particularly one that presumes to negate the mandate of the Ontario Power Authority. Define "bad spot" in this context.

[Boges]

Are you denying that there was outrage over the placement of these plants?

Here's a timeline of events

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/timeline-key-events-in-the-ontario-gas-plant-cancellations-1.1490017

I think you're the only one to deny that what the Liberals did was scandalous. If you think the placement of these plants was fine then you should be as outraged as anyone that they were cancelled.