11 year old transgender

[BC_chick]

EDMONTON - When 11-year-old Wren Kauffman goes back to school this week, he won't be hiding the fact that he's actually a girl.

Teachers, friends and other students at his Edmonton school know the truth — that he's a girl on the outside but feels like a boy on the inside. And that's why, even at such a young age, he has chosen to live in the world as the opposite sex, and not keep it a secret.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/09/02/wren-kauffman-transgender-boy-edmonton_n_3857115.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

I have a feeling this discussion will inevitably turn to a debate with the naysayers denying the whole notion of someone being transgender while others (myself included) would be making a distinction between sex and gender.

However, I thought I'd post it because I like the spin on it given the child's age.

Maybe this hits a bit close to home because I used to look up to my older brother when I was little and I wanted to badly to be a boy. My mom was ok with me dressing like a boy and having short hair but she put her foot down when I wanted a buzz cut when my brother and his friends all did.

By my early teens, I completely outgrew it all. Well, I guess I have a tomboy side to me because I'm athletically inclined but there is absolutely nothing even remotely masculine about me. I love looking like a woman and I love being a woman.

The kids in these types of articles may have similar experiences as mine.... or they may grow up and truly be transgender.

Good on their parents for allowing them to explore whatever they want. My mom was really avante-garde about the issue when I think about it now.

If my daughter identified as a boy or just simply wanted to dress like one, I wouldn't care. Maybe she'd outgrow it, maybe she wouldn't. Who really cares?

Edited September 3, 2013 by BC_chick

[bleeding heart]

I have a feeling this discussion will inevitably turn to a debate with the naysayers denying the whole notion of someone being transgender

Yes, some people do deny it, and it's a bizarre argument.

[cybercoma]

I have a feeling this discussion will inevitably turn to a debate with the naysayers denying the whole notion of someone being transgender while others (myself included) would be making a distinction between sex and gender.

Well, I for one am probably not going to get involved in this discussion on this forum. People here are not interested in learning about gender and gender issues. They just want to air their opinions without actually learning about people.

[Shady]

11 years old is much too young to be making these kinds of decisions. I'm sorry.

[sharkman]

The kid needed counselling and the parents ignored it for 6 or 7 years, now want a pat on the back. Typical.

[Boges]

Giving a kid hormones to delay puberty until it's legal to do a sex change operation is bizarre behaviour to say the least.

[TimG]

Some people are born with ambiguous genitalia.

These people need to be able to choose their gender.

If it was chosen for them at birth then it make sense that they would repudiate that choice later in life.

People who are born with unambiguous genitalia that think they are another gender are likely facing psychological problems that are not going to be addressed by mutilating the body they were born with. An 11 year old is not mature enough to understand distinction between changing gender and playing dress up.

Edited September 3, 2013 by TimG

[TimG]

They just want to air their opinions without actually learning about people.

Let's say this 11 year old murders a classmate. Would you argue that this 11 year deserved be locked up for life? Or would you argue that an 11 year old is not capable of understanding the consequences of their actions and needs psychological help?

If the latter then how could you possibly support the notion that an 11 year should be given life altering drugs based on the belief that this 11 year old knows and understands that a gender change is more than a game of dress up?

I suspect you don't because you don't want to talk about want is best for a kid. You just want the ego boost that you get from telling yourself how open minded you are because you applaud when a parent injects life altering drugs into a kid instead of helping the kid accept the body he/she was born with.

Edited September 4, 2013 by TimG

[BC_chick]

What life-altering drugs? The ones that delay menstruation? Hormone-therapy? Because the former is not life-altering and the latter, according to the article, he may choose at 16. But at 11, there is nothing going on other than supportive parents, which I commend.

As for playing dressup, I shared my experience thread because that was a case being in a phase and growing out of it. It went on for a couple of years but that was it.

It's clearly different from a child believing from day one that are born into the wrong body and 11 years later nothing has changed.

[TimG]

Hormone-therapy? Because the former is not life-altering and the latter, according to the article, he may choose at 16.

I missed that subtlety but I still take the position that parents should be teaching their children to accept the body that they were born with.

The idea that this self-mutilation (a.k.a. sex change surgery) is a normal process for people who were not born with ambiguous gender is perverse. It is no different than parents telling a teenaged girl that she should get breast implants to boost her self esteem. Would you admire parents who did that or would you condemn them?

If this kid hits 18 and wants to mutilate herself then I guess that is her choice. But the parents in this case should be teaching the child to accept her body the way it is.

It's clearly different from a child believing from day one that are born into the wrong body and 11 years later nothing has changed.

Everyone wishes they had a different body at times. But most of us make do with the body we got. We don't mutilate ourselves. Teaching kids to accept themselves for what they are (e.g. gay-strait) is healthy. Teaching kids that self mutilation is a legitimate path to self acceptance is wrong. Edited September 4, 2013 by TimG

[bleeding heart]

I missed that subtlety but I still take the position that parents should be teaching their children to accept the body that they were born with.

......

Everyone wishes they had a different body at times. But most of us make do with the body we got.

The specifics of this case aside, I get the impression that you don't quite understand what's at stake here for the subjects. It's not a matter of disliking your body in the usual sense (which is also unfortunate, but a totally separate issue).

you're talking about girls who worry about their weight, or wish their breasts were more aligned with conventional cultural standards of beauty; or boys who wish they were taller, or had larger penises.

These things are quite unrelated to the body-issues that trans-gender kids face.

We're talking about something absolutely crucial to their very sense of identity. something that a non-transgendered person literally cannot comprehend.

Which is why imagination, compassion--and trust that people know what they are--is so important.

As for the idea that parents need to help them "accept themselves for what they are"....well, that's rather the point of parents accepting their child's transgender wishes.

Denying it is not helping them accept it, anymore than sending your kid to "Go straight" camp is "helping" them to accept who they truly are.

Now yes, it's a difficult line to traverse for parents, no question; you don't wish them to hate the body they're in, even if they want to change it...I agree. And you don't want to jump the gun, in cases where a desire for change might be more...transcient than in other cases.

But transgenderism as a whole is not a mental illness...though denying it can probably lead to some such thing.

Edited September 4, 2013 by bleeding heart

[Black Dog]

Some people are born with ambiguous genitalia.

These people need to be able to choose their gender.

If it was chosen for them at birth then it make sense that they would repudiate that choice later in life.

People who are born with unambiguous genitalia that think they are another gender are likely facing psychological problems that are not going to be addressed by mutilating the body they were born with. An 11 year old is not mature enough to understand distinction between changing gender and playing dress up.

gender ≠ genitalia

[TimG]

It's not a matter of disliking your body in the usual sense (which is also unfortunate, but a totally separate issue).

I think you are making excuses. Someone who believes they are a different gender than what biology says they are is classic example of someone not being able to come to terms with the body that they have. Remember that I have stated explicitly that my comments do not apply to people who are biologically ambiguous. I am only talking of people where there is absolutely no biological basis for their claim of being the wrong gender.

But transgenderism as a whole is not a mental illness...though denying it can probably lead to some such thing.

I would agree if there is a biological basis. But I do not agree that every kid with body image issues is automatically someone who should be be pumped up with drugs in preparation for some self mutilation event in the future. Anorexia is not a fad that goes away - it is a serious illness that takes years to develop and serious treatment to resolve so simply saying a child has claimed to be a different gender for years is not sufficient evidence that it is not a mental illness. If the kid wants to dress as a boy let them. But keep the kid off the drugs and teach the kid that she is biologically female and she needs to come to terms with that.

It is worth remembering what "transgenderism" is: an obsession with how other people see you.

It is not about being able to wear the clothes that you want to have sex with.

Men and woman are free to do this in our society.

It is entirely about what one thinks other people see you as.

I see an obsession with what other people see you as as a mental illness that is not much different than what drove this woman to mutilate herself:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2320679/Korean-woman-Hang-Mioku-injects-COOKING-OIL-face-refused-plastic-surgery.html

Edited September 4, 2013 by TimG

[bleeding heart]

I think you are making excuses. Someone who believes they are a different gender than what biology says they are is classic example of someone not being able to come to terms with the body that they have.

??

Of course they're not able to come to terms with the body they have. That's never been disputed by a single person.

I would agree if there is a biological basis. But I do not agree that every kid with body image issues is automatically someone who should be changing their sex.

Yes, so you said....and I answered this explicitly.

Anorexia does is not a fad that goes away - it is a serious illness that takes years to develop and serious treatment to resolve so simply saying a child has claimed to be a different gender for years is not sufficient evidence that it is not a mental illness.

Anorexia has precisely zero to do with the subject wishing or thinking that he or she is a different gender. Also, anorexia is a potentially lethal disorder...and no one disputes that it is a bad thing.

Transgender issues are a whole other ball of wax.

It is worth remembering what "transgenderism" is: an obsession with how other people see you.

It's deeper than that, unless you think "identity" is a trivial matter.

I see an obsession with what other people see you as as a mental illness

Well, if you're bringing up "mental health" you might note that mental health professionals tend to disagree with you.

This isn't an argument from authority...but you ARE speaking authoritatively on issues of mental health, so surely you can back it up.

Your entire argument is premised on "I don't get it, bro'." And that's it. And that's fine...but it (merely) is what it is.

Edited September 4, 2013 by bleeding heart

[cybercoma]

Sex is biological, gender is not. If you continue to refuse to recognize that simple fact that's even accepted by the World Health Organization, then you have no place discussing these issues at all.

[TimG]

Of course they're not able to come to terms with the body they have. That's never been disputed by a single person.

The debate is what the appropriate response is. I say that harmful medical interventions should be avoided at all costs.

Anorexia has precisely zero to do with the subject wishing or thinking that he or she is a different gender. Also, anorexia is a potentially lethal disorder...and no one disputes that it is a bad thing.

But pumping oneself with hormones and lopping off body parts is OK? You draw the line on anorexia simply because it is potentially lethal? Does that make sense?

Well, if you're bringing up "mental health" you might note that mental health professionals tend to disagree with you.

Last I checked mental health professionals do not take the position that every who claims to be transgendered is. Getting approval for a sex change operation is not automatic and takes years of therapy. Edited September 4, 2013 by TimG

[TimG]

Sex is biological, gender is not.

Then why are sex change operations necessary?

If gender was not about biology then there would be no need for the self mutilation.

You are are simply trying to rationalize an inconsistent set of beliefs.

Edited September 4, 2013 by TimG

[Black Dog]

It is worth remembering what "transgenderism" is: an obsession with how other people see you.

What rot.

Then why are sex change operations necessary?

If gender was not about biology then there would be no need for the self mutilation.

That there are transgender people out there who choose not to undergo sex reassignment, but identify and live as their non-biological sex pretty much sinks your argument.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Black Dog

[TimG]

What rot.

Not at all. The ONLY reason anyone cares about their "gender" is because of how they think other people see them. If is was not about an obsession with what other people think they would not care about their gender.

That there are transgender people out there who choose not to undergo sex reassignment, but identify and live as their non-biological sex pretty much sinks your argument.

A complete strawman. Where did I say ever I had an issue with such people? My entire argument has been about the drugs being feed to an 11 year old because of a belief that this 11 year is able to understand what a sex change is. Take away the medical interventions and I would not complain. Edited September 4, 2013 by TimG

[Black Dog]

A complete strawman. Where did I say ever I had an issue with such people? My entire argument has been about the drugs being feed to an 11 year old because of a belief that this 11 year is able to understand what a sex change is.

Lol wut

The idea that this self-mutilation (a.k.a. sex change surgery) is a normal process for people who were not born with ambiguous gender is perverse

Everyone wishes they had a different body at times. But most of us make do with the body we got. We don't mutilate ourselves. Teaching kids to accept themselves for what they are (e.g. gay-strait) is healthy. Teaching kids that self mutilation is a legitimate path to self acceptance is wrong.

Someone who believes they are a different gender than what biology says they are is classic example of someone not being able to come to terms with the body that they have. Remember that I have stated explicitly that my comments do not apply to people who are biologically ambiguous. I am only talking of people where there is absolutely no biological basis for their claim of being the wrong gender.

I would agree if there is a biological basis. But I do not agree that every kid with body image issues is automatically someone who should be be pumped up with drugs in preparation for some self mutilation event in the future.

Lots of general comments about transgenderism here.

Take away the medical interventions and I would not complain.

No, you would just think they are mentally ill (since apparently the only people allowed to feel conflicted about their sex are hermaphrodites).

Edited September 4, 2013 by Black Dog

[TimG]

Lots of general comments about transgenderism here.

And every one of them made reference to the self mutilation.

Take away the self mutilation and I have nothing to say on the topic.

Edited September 4, 2013 by TimG

[Black Dog]

And every one of them made reference to the self mutilation.

Take away the self mutilation and I have nothing to say on the topic.

But you've said plenty. You are basically claiming there's no such thing as transgenderism.

[TimG]

But you've said plenty. You are basically claiming there's no such thing as transgenderism.

You seem to be intent on missing the point. I said that there are cases where people are biologically ambiguous and medical interventions are justified. But for people who have no biological basis I see the desire for self mutilation as a psychological problem like anorexia. Edited September 4, 2013 by TimG

[Black Dog]

You seem to be intent on missing the point. I said that there are cases where people are biologically ambiguous and medical interventions are justified. But for people who have no biological basis I see the desire for self mutilation as a psychological problem like anorexia.

So how do you propose fixing these poor benighted souls to see their real gender? Prayer?

Not at all. The ONLY reason anyone cares about their "gender" is because of how they think other people see them. If is was not about an obsession with what other people think they would not care about their gender.

Far more accurate (and certainly far more humane) is to say they care because of the incongruity between how they are viewed versus how they feel and perceive themselves. Mighty big of you to be able to decide what people should and should not care about.

[TimG]

So how do you propose fixing these poor benighted souls to see their real gender? Prayer?

I see you are repudiating cybercoma's claim that gender and biology are not linked. If there was no link there would be no need for self mutilation.

Like I said: plenty of people have body image problems. Some times these image problems are pathological and require treatment. I see no difference between treating people for anorexia and treating people with gender identity issues. I am assuming you consider it acceptable to say that people with anorexia need treatment so it is puzzling why you would say so treatment is required simply because someone says they need to mutilate themselves in order to make their body match their self defined gender (as opposed to their self defined ideal body weight).

Far more accurate (and certainly far more humane) is to say they care because of the incongruity between how they are viewed versus how they feel and perceive themselves.

Just another way of making my point: they are obsessing about how other people see them. A healthy response would find ways to eliminate this obsession instead of trying to normalize it through self mutilation. Edited September 4, 2013 by TimG