H10 Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 The Trial for this has finally started. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/forcillo-trial-yatim-shooting-1.3279911 Here are some early details we "didn't know" before. So it appears Yatim wasn't a "threat" after the first volley of shots. Remember Forcillo stopped then started shooting again. It was obvious all of the cops were so scared of yatim, even after the 9 shots and before the tazer discharge, notice how they all ran backwards from yatim. I am not saying it was even a reasonable fear. Why did Yatim have his penis showing on the bus to the passengers? Quote
H10 Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 If Forcillo is let off the hook, expect Ferguson like protests in Toronto. Yatim was absolutely no threat to anyone unless you're a paranoid cop on a roid rage. I don't even see how Forcillo is being charged to be honest. Not that I believe he shouldn't be charged or that he shouldn't be on trial. I just don't see how they let off 20 other cops who seemingly did much worse or equally worse and were never even charged. You have cases of unarmed men being shot dead by police. Yatim was armed, and therefore substantially more dangerous. For instance, Jermaine Carby was shot dead unarmed by peel police. The SIU cleared the officers despite the fact that the witnesses all contradict officer testimony and that the shooting officer refused to turn over the notes and no knife was found at the scene. Based on that, I'd have to say Forcillo should be found not guilty. Throw on the fact that the defense lawyer is now spinning it as Forcillo believed that other passengers were hiding on the bus out of view, then his shooting doesn't even seem unreasonable. if you are an officer and believe Yatim has hostages, then shooting him is certainly reasonable. I don't expect to see any protest really mainly because Forcillo seems to be justified based off the past cases were cops murder civilians and get away. Quote
Big Guy Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 I believe that making this a black, white issue is pretty lame. Maybe it was the dislike of Syrians by Italians? How about older guys not liking younger guys? What about guys who keep their penis in their pants vs guys that like to dangle it in public? There might be a case for guys not taking drugs disliking guys who take ecstasy? For me to judge if he is guilty would be to wonder what I would have done under those conditions. I do know that I would never be in that position because I would never join the police force. When in doubt - not guilty. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
On Guard for Thee Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 At the outset from the eyewitness accounts and various cellphone videos, I reckoned this cop was guilty of at least something. With the release of the current video, I have no doubt he is. Quote
H10 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 At the outset from the eyewitness accounts and various cellphone videos, I reckoned this cop was guilty of at least something. With the release of the current video, I have no doubt he is. What is he guilty of? He was already dead by the 3rd shot through the heart. He wasn't going to survive anyhow. Frankly, the cop just put him out of his misery of suffering a heart attack and staying alive for 3-5 minutes in extreme pain. Quote
H10 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 I believe that making this a black, white issue is pretty lame. Maybe it was the dislike of Syrians by Italians? How about older guys not liking younger guys? What about guys who keep their penis in their pants vs guys that like to dangle it in public? There might be a case for guys not taking drugs disliking guys who take ecstasy? For me to judge if he is guilty would be to wonder what I would have done under those conditions. I do know that I would never be in that position because I would never join the police force. When in doubt - not guilty. I do question why Forcillo was charged. Is it bias against Italians from the irish or british prosecutors? Far more egregious cases of police murder do not get charged. Forcillo was charged due to his sisters political power and organized protest. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 What is he guilty of? He was already dead by the 3rd shot through the heart. He wasn't going to survive anyhow. Frankly, the cop just put him out of his misery of suffering a heart attack and staying alive for 3-5 minutes in extreme pain. You're kidding right? Quote
Boges Posted October 25, 2015 Author Report Posted October 25, 2015 I do question why Forcillo was charged. Is it bias against Italians from the irish or british prosecutors? Far more egregious cases of police murder do not get charged. Forcillo was charged due to his sisters political power and organized protest. This is an absurd opinion. Quote
H10 Posted October 26, 2015 Report Posted October 26, 2015 You're kidding right? no. officers killed unarmed people who "appeared" aggressive in their mind and had no weapon, I am not quiet sure why he is being charged, the police handbook on escalation of force certainly permits the use of deadly force against a knife weilding suspect. The fact that other officers pulled their guns after 3 shots shows other officers thought he was a threat with a knife too, and the fact he was tased by another officer shows that again, they perceived this guy wielding a knife although shot as a deadly threat. I really have no clue what the prosecutor was thinking. Quote
Boges Posted October 26, 2015 Author Report Posted October 26, 2015 why You're claiming dude got charged because he's an Italian. Toronto is full of Italians. Please cite an example where Italians faced undue hardship at any point in recent history. They tazed Yatim while he was dead. Clearly they thought they could get away with murdering that kid but the cell phone video caught them red handed. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted October 26, 2015 Report Posted October 26, 2015 no. officers killed unarmed people who "appeared" aggressive in their mind and had no weapon, I am not quiet sure why he is being charged, the police handbook on escalation of force certainly permits the use of deadly force against a knife weilding suspect. The fact that other officers pulled their guns after 3 shots shows other officers thought he was a threat with a knife too, and the fact he was tased by another officer shows that again, they perceived this guy wielding a knife although shot as a deadly threat. I really have no clue what the prosecutor was thinking. The knife wielding man was alone on a streetcar. The only person he was threatening by then was himself. The police handbook as well as their training is meant to deescalate situations when possible. All they had to do was keep the door blocked, and wait him out to toss out the knife. Or toss in enough tear gas to disable him. Tasing him after putting 9 slugs in him just tells me these cops were maybe buzzing a little on tim horton's doughnut fat and testosterone. Just look at the video is about all you have to do to see why he's been charged. Quote
H10 Posted October 30, 2015 Report Posted October 30, 2015 You're claiming dude got charged because he's an Italian. Toronto is full of Italians. Please cite an example where Italians faced undue hardship at any point in recent history. They tazed Yatim while he was dead. Clearly they thought they could get away with murdering that kid but the cell phone video caught them red handed. He did. A bunch of other cops murdered people in far worse circumstances and WERE NOT CHARGED. You have failed to explain why. Who cares if Toronto is full of Italians, it just takes one prejudice prosecutor, one prejudice person, when I was lecturing at york university someone sprayed wops on the doors. And there was alot of anti-italian sentiment from ww2 and after and onwards from white on italian. They tazed Yatim while he was dead, interestingly enough, the white officer who tazed the dead or dying man was not charged with anything by the prosecutor. And the cops likely knew they were on film, forcillo is heard on tape saying get the tazer (regular toronto cops don't have guns, only the bosses have tazers). I don't see where murder happens here. You have a knife weilding suspect warned not to approach and he approaches, so how is it wrong. I feel if a man with a knife approached me I should be allowed to shoot him too. Quote
H10 Posted October 30, 2015 Report Posted October 30, 2015 The knife wielding man was alone on a streetcar. The only person he was threatening by then was himself. The police handbook as well as their training is meant to deescalate situations when possible. All they had to do was keep the door blocked, and wait him out to toss out the knife. Or toss in enough tear gas to disable him. Tasing him after putting 9 slugs in him just tells me these cops were maybe buzzing a little on tim horton's doughnut fat and testosterone. Just look at the video is about all you have to do to see why he's been charged. The cop didn't know he was alone. The cop was likely thinking this guy has hostages, other people can be hiding on the floor of the bus and this guy was warned not to come forward or I would shoot him. The guy ignored the officer commands, ignored the officers threats despite the officer pointing a gun saying don't come forward and walked in his direction a mere 16 feet away with a deadly weapon. The use of force guidelines say cops can shoot suspects with deadly weapons. No the police handbook and use of force guideline actually tell cops to ESCALATE a situation. They say if someone physically resist arrest then you can beat them up to compliance, if someone balls up their fist, or brandish a knife you can shoot them. The cop job is to arrest the suspect. Not deescalate. Look at the guideline, nowhere does it say deescalate. This is how they are trained. Guy has a knife, you shot him. I support my local police. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted October 30, 2015 Report Posted October 30, 2015 The cop didn't know he was alone. The cop was likely thinking this guy has hostages, other people can be hiding on the floor of the bus and this guy was warned not to come forward or I would shoot him. The guy ignored the officer commands, ignored the officers threats despite the officer pointing a gun saying don't come forward and walked in his direction a mere 16 feet away with a deadly weapon. The use of force guidelines say cops can shoot suspects with deadly weapons. No the police handbook and use of force guideline actually tell cops to ESCALATE a situation. They say if someone physically resist arrest then you can beat them up to compliance, if someone balls up their fist, or brandish a knife you can shoot them. The cop job is to arrest the suspect. Not deescalate. Look at the guideline, nowhere does it say deescalate. This is how they are trained. Guy has a knife, you shot him. I support my local police.All you need to do is look at the video to know he was alone. Police are taught to deescalate the situation when possible. This moron wanted to shoot someone and will hopefully be forced to pay for his crime. Supporting your local police is fine, but they also have to obey the law or suffer the consequences. Quote
Army Guy Posted October 31, 2015 Report Posted October 31, 2015 I agree with On Guard for thee.....this is not a simple case of the police office allowed to use deadly force.....It is one of not trying to descalate it....the kid was just a kid....they could of easily descalated it, or over powered him with non lethal force....that and the fact he was shot how many times.....a full magazine.........If i had done that in work up training for Afghanistan, i'd be out of a job, and i was preparing for combat......it's called excessive use of lethal force....might as well been a air strike....or a 120mm HE round.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
GostHacked Posted October 31, 2015 Report Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) I agree with On Guard for thee.....this is not a simple case of the police office allowed to use deadly force.....It is one of not trying to descalate it....the kid was just a kid....they could of easily descalated it, or over powered him with non lethal force....that and the fact he was shot how many times.....a full magazine.........If i had done that in work up training for Afghanistan, i'd be out of a job, and i was preparing for combat......it's called excessive use of lethal force....might as well been a air strike....or a 120mm HE round.... I think we've gone through the de-escalation notion waaaaaaayyyy back in this thread. hernanday is not presenting anything new here. Aside from maybe making this about Italians. ?!? Edited October 31, 2015 by GostHacked Quote
Rue Posted October 31, 2015 Report Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) On this one I am inclined to agree with Ghost's comments until the words making the idiotic comment about donuts. The reason I back Ghost's comments is that in fact a similar situation transpired on a Montreal bus soon after and they waited it out. Also in the horrendous crime outside Calgary the the Greyhond bus with the crazy man who actually walked up and down the bus eating parts of the poor young man's head he had cut off, the RCMP waited him out. In fact the initial officer on the scene committed suicide from ptsd from the incident. There's two clear and recent precedents for waiting out a mentally ill person with no hostages. The officer who killed him I more and more believe panicked. The fact there was a female officer who put her gun back in the holster does not help the other officer's cause either. I think the officer panicked. Maybe the first few shots could be explained by saying he yelled at the menally ill person to stop and he kept moving but the second volley I just don't think so. I also think it was a huge mistake officers are not trained to turn off their police sirens when dealing with agitated people. The sound of sirens not only drowns out the voice commands but of course would escalate the tension. There is just no way training wise to clear what he did. From a training perspective there were just too many mistakes. The sirens left on were the biggest mistake. Then the inability of the officer to use non confrontational language. People should keep in mind the officer may not have formed criminal intent to kill. Doesn't mean he can't be sued civilly for negligence or be reprimanded or fired. People have to understand criminal law requires proof BEYOND reasonable doubt which is hard to do. In civil law you only have to show on a balance of probabilities the behaviour was problematic to win a case. Me personally I think the sound of the sirens clouded both the mentally ill person's judgement already clearly compromised by drugs as well as the police officer's. I don't feel comfortable putting that police officer back on the street.Just don't. I can see how he may not be criminally guilty as well but I do not think he has the right make up for a street officer after this. Certainly the incident needs to be dissected and used as a learning tool. I say again we all have the hindsight of sitting on sofas second guessing. I am glad I am not the Judge in this case. I do not envy his task. Edited October 31, 2015 by Rue Quote
H10 Posted November 2, 2015 Report Posted November 2, 2015 I agree with On Guard for thee.....this is not a simple case of the police office allowed to use deadly force.....It is one of not trying to descalate it....the kid was just a kid....they could of easily descalated it, or over powered him with non lethal force....that and the fact he was shot how many times.....a full magazine.........If i had done that in work up training for Afghanistan, i'd be out of a job, and i was preparing for combat......it's called excessive use of lethal force....might as well been a air strike....or a 120mm HE round.... You are missing the ball, go and look above at the chart. Do you see de-escalation anywhere on there?Cops are not trained to de-escalate, the are trained to escalate with overwhelming force. This is the guideline they follow. If he tried to de-escalate and someone died, he'd be fired and sued for not following the guidelines from the province. I was also in Afghanistan and cops actually have alot more leeway in shooting than we do. Cops were allowed to kill when they perceive a deadly threat after 2008 I recall a shift. In 2003 you could pretty much shoot anyone you want and if you were question just say he had a gun, even if he didn't have one. By 2008 you had to be fired on first or see the gun pointed at you and they were checking for guns and if there was a pattern you'd see jail time. To me it is irrelevent legally if he shot once or 10 times. Once he perceived a deadly threat which the use of force guidelines points out he has the right to shoot to kill. And he did what he was told to do by the state. Quote
H10 Posted November 2, 2015 Report Posted November 2, 2015 All you need to do is look at the video to know he was alone. Police are taught to deescalate the situation when possible. This moron wanted to shoot someone and will hopefully be forced to pay for his crime. Supporting your local police is fine, but they also have to obey the law or suffer the consequences. Did the cop have a video inside of the bus before the shooting? Stop being silly. He thought people were hiding on the floor who could not be seen being held hostage. The last thing he wanted to do was for the yatim to go stab someone on the floor where shooting him would be impossible without harming a hostage. He would never had the opportunity to shoot anyone if yatim didn't pull a knife, yatim is responsible for his own death. You are being anti-cop. Quote
H10 Posted November 2, 2015 Report Posted November 2, 2015 (edited) On this one I am inclined to agree with Ghost's comments until the words making the idiotic comment about donuts. ---SNIP--- To be negligent you have to fail to do something you were suppose to. To me it look like they did what they should have. Forcillo wasn't the only one with his gun out, others perceived a deadly threat. Even civilly you have to prove more likely than not the officer did bad. All the officer has to do is pull out the guideline, show where it says if person pulls knife you can use deadly force and the case would be dismissed on summary judgment it would never make it to trial. Edited November 2, 2015 by H10 [---SNIP---] Quote
GostHacked Posted November 3, 2015 Report Posted November 3, 2015 To be negligent you have to fail to do something you were suppose to. To me it look like they did what they should have. Forcillo wasn't the only one with his gun out, others perceived a deadly threat. Even civilly you have to prove more likely than not the officer did bad. All the officer has to do is pull out the guideline, show where it says if person pulls knife you can use deadly force and the case would be dismissed on summary judgment it would never make it to trial. It appears you are trolling as hard as you can here. Most of your notions have already been dealt with a long time back in this thread. Go catch up first. Most of your 'questions' will have been answered. Quote
H10 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Posted November 3, 2015 It appears you are trolling as hard as you can here. Most of your notions have already been dealt with a long time back in this thread. Go catch up first. Most of your 'questions' will have been answered.Actually you are the one trolling as I did not ask a single question in the response you quoted. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted November 3, 2015 Report Posted November 3, 2015 Did the cop have a video inside of the bus before the shooting? Stop being silly. He thought people were hiding on the floor who could not be seen being held hostage. The last thing he wanted to do was for the yatim to go stab someone on the floor where shooting him would be impossible without harming a hostage. He would never had the opportunity to shoot anyone if yatim didn't pull a knife, yatim is responsible for his own death. You are being anti-cop. And you think you cant look in the windows of a lighted streetcar to see how many people are in it? Now that is well beyond silly my friend. I'm not anti cop, just anti murderer. Quote
H10 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Posted November 3, 2015 And you think you cant look in the windows of a lighted streetcar to see how many people are in it? Now that is well beyond silly my friend. I'm not anti cop, just anti murderer. You cannot see someone hiding on the floor through the glass windows of a 10 foot bus. Stop being ridiculous. It was not unreasonable for a cop to believe someone could be hiding on the floor from the psychotic knife wielding man. This is a public bus. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.