TTC Police Shooting

[Shady]

I too share the opinion that "suicide by cop" has happened but I have no solid evidence to support this theory. I certainly wouldn't be so presumptuous as to declare it as "fact."

I agree. It's a good thing that nobody here has declared it as fact in this case. Pointing it out as a possibility certainly doesn't.

[Black Dog]

How can suicide by cop be a thing if cops don't shoot to kill?

[Shady]

How can suicide by cop be a thing if cops don't shoot to kill?

They do if there life's in danger. You're quite mistaken.

[Black Dog]

They do if there life's in danger. You're quite mistaken.

Don't tell me, tell AW.

[BubberMiley]

It's a good thing that nobody here has declared it as fact in this case.

It does happen, that's a fact...

I agree that it may happen from time to time, but who's to say it's a fact? That's just an opinion.

[Shady]

I agree that it may happen from time to time, but who's to say it's a fact? That's just an opinion.

No, it absolutely is a fact that it happens. You even agree, you said from time to time. Are you now saying that it's not a fact that it happens from time to time?

[Guest American Woman]

I agree that it may happen from time to time, but who's to say it's a fact? That's just an opinion.

Of course it's not an opinion. It happens, and that's a fact. Some even leave a suicide note apologizing ahead of time to the officer(s) that end up killing them.

And for the record, I repeat, AGAIN, that I never said it was a "fact" in this case nor have I ever stated that it's my theory that it happened in this case, so I trust you won't be repeating or insinuating false claims about what I said.

Edited August 21, 2013 by American Woman

[BubberMiley]

No, it absolutely is a fact that it happens. You even agree, you said from time to time. Are you now saying that it's not a fact that it happens from time to time?

In my opinion it happens from time to time, but we can't say for sure what goes on in a person's head. The evidence may overwhelmingly suggest that it was suicide, but innocent until proven guilty and all that.

[Boges]

I can't believe this thread has been turned into a debate about whether "suicide by cop" happens or not and how can we verify if it happened. :-/

[Shady]

In my opinion it happens from time to time, but we can't say for sure what goes on in a person's head. The evidence may overwhelmingly suggest that it was suicide, but innocent until proven guilty and all that.

Yes we can say for sure. Some people that have committed suicide by cop have left suicide notes indicating their intentions. It's fact.

[cybercoma]

I can't believe this thread has been turned into a debate about whether "suicide by cop" happens or not and how can we verify if it happened. :-/

Given who's involved, I can.

Edited August 21, 2013 by cybercoma

[Boges]

Toronto Sun cover story from Joe Warmington says Forcillo hit Yatim with 8 of the 9 shots.

[Black Dog]

Toronto Sun cover story from Joe Warmington says Forcillo hit Yatim with 8 of the 9 shots.

Interesting to see how many were from the initial burst, which would be easy enough for the forensics people to figure out.

[GostHacked]

Interesting to see how many were from the initial burst, which would be easy enough for the forensics people to figure out.

Seems like the guns and this cop specifically were a better shot and overcome the averages Derek L was getting at.

[Boges]

Of course this was from confidential sources so if you believe Forcillo was in the right, this new revelation won't change your mind.

But if it is true that he landed 8/9 rounds, I don't see how anyone can convince anyone that he was in the right.

[Black Dog]

Seems like the guns and this cop specifically were a better shot and overcome the averages Derek L was getting at.

To be fair, I don't think Derek said anything about the difficulty of hitting a completely stationary target from near point blank range (which this cop did no fewer than 5 times).

[cybercoma]

Of course this was from confidential sources so if you believe Forcillo was in the right, this new revelation won't change your mind.

But if it is true that he landed 8/9 rounds, I don't see how anyone can convince anyone that he was in the right.

But, where did they hit him? [/Derek]

[Boges]

But, where did they hit him? [/Derek]

At 8 rounds, does it matter? Was he carrying a paint gun?

Edited August 22, 2013 by Boges

[Argus]

Anyone put off by the kid gloves Officer Forcillo has been treated with? No Perp Walk, No Arrest. Will the mug shot be released?.

No civilian would get such treatment had they been charged with 2nd degree murder.

Insiders always get different treatment. That being said, I'm not entirely comfortable with the charge itself. I don't think 2nd degree murder is appropriate, though perhaps by strict definition of the law it might be laid. As I understand it, all deliberate killing is homocide. However, one can make a case that it was justifiable, as police do when they kill people. The only justification, of course, is self-defence (which includes defending others).

As far as I'm concerned, though, murder is not a category which should be applied to these situations. This is not a case where a person was 'murdered' for any kind of benefit/profit or advantage. It isn't a thrill kill. I don't believe the constable in question actually wanted him to be dead (even while I acknowledge the constable's incompetence resulted in that death). It isn't any sort of thing which we, as a society, have decided to actively discourage through the heavy penalties we lay out for murder. This is, in essence, an error of judgement brought about by the stress of the situation, an error with very profound consequences. I think the appropriate charge is criminal negligence causing death, which is laid when you do something which results in the death of another person, and the authorities judge that what you did was appallingly stupid, and not something forgiveable as in an understandable mistake.

And, of course, the constable has demonstrated that the Toronto Police Service was mistaken in hiring him in the first place. He does not have the psychological makeup to be a police officer when the fecal matter hits the rotary air device. He should be dismissed asap.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Argus

[cybercoma]

At 8 rounds, does it matter? Was he carrying a paint gun?

Hey, man. It's not my argument. I'm just repeating what Derek has already said.

[Black Dog]

Insiders always get different treatment. That being said, I'm not entirely comfortable with the charge itself. I don't think 2nd degree murder is appropriate, though perhaps by strict definition of the law it might be laid. As I understand it, all deliberate killing is homocide. However, one can make a case that it was justifiable, as police do when they kill people. The only justification, of course, is self-defence (which includes defending others).

As far as I'm concerned, though, murder is not a category which should be applied to these situations. This is not a case where a person was 'murdered' for any kind of benefit/profit or advantage. It isn't a thrill kill. I don't believe the constable in question actually wanted him to be dead (even while I acknowledge the constable's incompetence resulted in that death). It isn't any sort of thing which we, as a society, have decided to actively discourage through the heavy penalties we lay out for murder. This is, in essence, an error of judgement brought about by the stress of the situation, an error with very profound consequences. I think the appropriate charge is criminal negligence causing death, which is laid when you do something which results in the death of another person, and the authorities judge that what you did was appallingly stupid, and not something forgiveable as in an understandable mistake.

And, of course, the constable has demonstrated that the Toronto Police Service was mistaken in hiring him in the first place. He does not have the psychological makeup to be a police officer when the fecal matter hits the rotary air device. He should be dismissed asap.

NAL, but doesn't a charge like that mean the accused can plea down to a lesser charge? Like they can get him for manslaughter or negligence, whereas if they went with those charges initialy, they might end up with nothing. I dunno.

OTOH, maybe the murder charge is appropriate given the way events played out. I mean, it's one thing to overreact and shoot someone: quite another to do so and then keep pumping bullets into their twitching body.

[cybercoma]

There are lesser-included charges with second-degree murder, yes. That's why they charged him with it. The problem is that the case may not even get a guilty verdict on manslaughter. Juries are hesitant to convict officers in the line of duty. Also, we should keep in mind that rarely do they report all the charges someone faces. Typically, they'll just report the most serious one because a lot of times the judge will dismiss the others and just try the most serious charge anyway.

[Guest American Woman]

Toronto Sun cover story from Joe Warmington says Forcillo hit Yatim with 8 of the 9 shots.

Who's to say that's true? Who is the source?

[GostHacked]

Who's to say that's true? Who is the source?

The coroner most likely.

[Boges]

Who's to say that's true? Who is the source?

Confidential source.

But looky here, the Star reports the exact same thing.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/08/22/sammy_yatim_shot_eight_times.html

The Star has confirmed eight of nine shots heard in a bystander video actually struck the 18-year-old on July 27 just after midnight.

The coroner’s office refused to comment Monday, saying results of their post-mortem are only given to the family and investigators, in this case the Special Investigations Unit (SIU), said spokesperson Laura Blondeau.

But on Thursday, the Yatim’s family spokesperson said the first they had heard about how many shots actually struck him was in the media this morning.

Since both the Star and Sun have reported the same thing we can pretty much rule out some sort of political bias to make stuff up to make Forcillo look bad. Edited August 22, 2013 by Boges