Lac-Mégantic train derailment disaster

[The_Squid]

No - the vandalism would have happened where the train was parked, and where the brake was released - at a distance from the town.

unless they rode the train?

Obviously, this is pure speculation... and vandals are a less likely scenario than negligence on the operator/company's part.

Also, the government has known about this accident waiting to happen and has done nothing about it.

In late 2011, the auditor general released a report that concluded, "Transport Canada has not designed and implemented the management practices needed to effectively monitor regulatory compliance" when it comes to the transportation of dangerous goods as defined by the ministry.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/07/08/f-lac-megantic-oil-rail.html

In a bluntly worded report on a 2009 spill from a CN train, Canada’s Transportation Safety Board wrote: “The susceptibility of 111A tank cars to release product at derailment and impact is well documented. The transport of a variety of the most hazardous products in such cars continues.”

The policy response has been that rail companies can no longer build new cars on that old design, but they can continue to use the old ones with their multiple “safety deficiencies.” In short, the federal government has prioritized keeping costs low for oil and rail companies over public safety.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/07/09/boom_in_rail_oil_shipments_rests_on_unsafe_tanker_cars.html

[Guest American Woman]

No - the vandalism would have happened where the train was parked, and where the brake was released - at a distance from the town.

Like Squid said, unless they rode the train - which I would think would be the idea. But who knows? In light of the wreckage, I would imagine the authorities wouldn't be able to tell if any of the deceased were on the train.

[dre]

So, said Trans Canada pipeline would include a branch from Alberta to the coast of British Columbia right?

That wouldnt make any sense at all. Our refining capacity is in Ontario and we currently import most of our oil from Venezuela.

[WWWTT]

Mulcair is an idiot for putting political advantage before concern for the victims. There will be plenty of time for that.

Oh OK then.

Oh wait a minute,wouldn't the victims be concerned about budget/safety cuts to the rail industry that helped lead to this disaster???

So basically,what you are saying is screw the victims rights to know what contributed to this tragedy because it is unsympathetic to the victims concern.

Sounds like a freekin load!

This is just another Walkereton

WWWTT

[guyser]

Oh wait a minute,wouldn't the victims be concerned about budget/safety cuts to the rail industry that helped lead to this disaster???

So basically,what you are saying is screw the victims rights to know what contributed to this tragedy because it is unsympathetic to the victims concern.

They will have plenty of time to get the truth. It does them no good to have speculation fueling fears and anger now.

The victims families have not had any rights trampled. They will get all the answers they need soon enough.

[Wild Bill]

Oh OK then.

Oh wait a minute,wouldn't the victims be concerned about budget/safety cuts to the rail industry that helped lead to this disaster???

So basically,what you are saying is screw the victims rights to know what contributed to this tragedy because it is unsympathetic to the victims concern.

Sounds like a freekin load!

This is just another Walkereton

WWWTT

No, Walkerton was quite different. At Walkerton, Mike Harris held a gun to the Koebel brothers' heads and forced them to get drunk, then falsify the tests. Harris also paid off the Walkerton council to hire the Koebels in the first place and then insisted that they never check up on what the brothers were doing with the town water system.

With this accident, someone simply forgot to set the brakes.

Not the same thing at all.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Wild Bill

[Vendetta]

Seems to me that Mulcair handled himself well and is quite right to point out that cuts to safety regulations and corporate self regulation need to be investigated. Too funny you jokers feighning outrage at Tom's comments when you were all fine with Harper's cheap politicking and taking cheap shots at Trudeau during foreign press conferences. pathetic

[Wilber]

Oh OK then.

Oh wait a minute,wouldn't the victims be concerned about budget/safety cuts to the rail industry that helped lead to this disaster???

So basically,what you are saying is screw the victims rights to know what contributed to this tragedy because it is unsympathetic to the victims concern.

Sounds like a freekin load!

This is just another Walkereton

WWWTT

I'm just saying there is a time and place for everything. This stuff needs to be brought up but he picked the wrong time. He made himself look a fool by jumping at a chance to bash the government instead of concerning himself with the victims and finding out what actually happened first.

In politics, not everything can be seen as being political.

[Topaz]

My view is , human error, unsafe tankers and much much too many tankers. How many times has any of us has stop a rail crossing and waited and waited. 89 cars and tankers are too many and there was a fired on the engine, so the braking system could have been damaged and it being parked on a incline, the weight wouldn't have helped the brake system.

[Wild Bill]

Seems to me that Mulcair handled himself well and is quite right to point out that cuts to safety regulations and corporate self regulation need to be investigated. Too funny you jokers feighning outrage at Tom's comments when you were all fine with Harper's cheap politicking and taking cheap shots at Trudeau during foreign press conferences. pathetic

What is it about the NDP folks that makes them so anal-retentive about having rules for everything? In the real world, you just can't have 100% certainty. When it comes to safety, even an infinite amount of rules to idiot proof something will not protect against idiots, or simple bad luck as a result of Murphy's Law.

That's because foresight is dim and only hindsight is 20/20. It is impossible to predict everything perfectly in advance but any yammerhead with hair in his ears can criticize something after the fact.

Tom's approach seems to be to assume that this tragedy happened because of a lack of rules and sufficient inspection which again is an anal-retentive approach. So he feels he should criticize the government and demand more rules and more inspectors.

This might generate more judicial and inspection jobs but it likely just won't make us any safer.

Me, I have always championed trying to make PEOPLE smarter! You give more and more rules if you have children or morons working for you. What about common sense? What about a sense of duty and dedication?

If someone was negligent or simply dim there is no point in making more rules, or hiring inspectors to inspect the inspectors who are inspecting the inspectors.

A friend of mine made an observation decades ago that I have never forgotten, because I am so constantly seeing examples that tend to prove it right.

He said "Our society is becoming more and more complicated while we ourselves are becoming less and less capable to maintain it".

Sadly, I suspect negligence or idiocy will come out as the major factor in this disaster.

[Wilber]

So what do you suggest, let the market decide what is safe and just accept this kind of collateral damage as the cost of doing business? Good luck selling that.

[Wild Bill]

So what do you suggest, let the market decide what is safe and just accept this kind of collateral damage as the cost of doing business? Good luck selling that.

Not at all! We do need SOME rules, I would agree. It's just that after a certain point you have more than enough rules and it is usually a waste of time to add more.

I'm certain Mulcair has no idea of how many rules or inspections are already in the railway system. He just sees a convenient target on Harper's chest. It doesn't have to actually be useful in improving safety or even make sense!

Claiming there were insufficient inspectors is one of those unanswerable claims. How can you EVER have enough inspectors? Sooner or later crap happens and the call for more inspections will start up again.

Anal-retentive thinkers usually think in terms of quantity. It is much better to always examine QUALITY first!

A hundred minimum wage poorly educated security guards at any of our airports are less effective than a handful of highly educated, well trained professionals with guns at an Israeli airport.

People move quickly and with a minimum of fuss and a maximum of courtesy at an Israeli airport. So far there has never been an incident.

Flying out of one of our airports is always a pain in the ass! This morning a Toronto talk radio station had a caller relating how he and his family were tied up at an American airport for several hours and treated like they were criminals. It seemed the problem was that his daughter had a similar name to one on the "Do not allow to fly" list.

His daughter was only 8 years old!

Again, we have enough rules. We need better quality in applying them.

[Wilber]

How many inspectors are there now? It's my understanding that unlike aviation, TC just makes the regulations, they haven't been responsible for enforcing them for years. So who does?

[Rocky Road]

What a horrible disaster that video is madness, it was a raging inferno.

Unbridled greed, I like the NDP ideas for safety.

[WWWTT]

They will have plenty of time to get the truth. It does them no good to have speculation fueling fears and anger now.

The victims families have not had any rights trampled. They will get all the answers they need soon enough.

When???

When Harper says so?

Rights delayed=rights denied!

People have questions that need to be answered,this tragedy must never happen again!(1977 Mississauga train derailment)

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

I'm just saying there is a time and place for everything. This stuff needs to be brought up but he picked the wrong time. He made himself look a fool by jumping at a chance to bash the government instead of concerning himself with the victims and finding out what actually happened first.

In politics, not everything can be seen as being political.

And how many people do you know that died in this disaster??

I'm guessing 0!

When someone dies,questions need to be asked!

You don't like the questions because they make Harper look bad!

WWWTT

[Guest Derek L]

That wouldnt make any sense at all. Our refining capacity is in Ontario and we currently import most of our oil from Venezuela.

Where do you think the fuel for Canada's third largest city comes from? Right now, Kinder Morgan's pipeline capacity is stressed and the short fall is made up by vast amounts of fuel going West by rail......

[WWWTT]

No, Walkerton was quite different. At Walkerton, Mike Harris held a gun to the Koebel brothers' heads and forced them to get drunk, then falsify the tests. Harris also paid off the Walkerton council to hire the Koebels in the first place and then insisted that they never check up on what the brothers were doing with the town water system.

With this accident, someone simply forgot to set the brakes.

Not the same thing at all.

No actually Harris was the one responsible to the infrastructure cuts that led to cross contamination conditions in Walkerton disaster go unrepaired.Not to mention the cuts to transfer payments to the municipalities

Adding more chlorine to water to kill harmful bacteria is also a harmful practice!Don't believe me?Read the label of a jug of chlorine bleach and tell me if it's safe to drink.And whatever you do,don't drink bleach because it WILL KILL YOU!!!

And what about the inspectors that are supposed to overlook the municipalities?Oh ya Harris cut them to.

Back to the rail disaster.

Cuts to safety=disasters!

WWWTT

Edited July 14, 2013 by WWWTT

[dre]

Where do you think the fuel for Canada's third largest city comes from? Right now, Kinder Morgan's pipeline capacity is stressed and the short fall is made up by vast amounts of fuel going West by rail......

Then upgrade that pipeline. In the meantime we import 60% of our oil from places like Venezuela, and oil exports put a lot of pressure on other industries. If we took care of our own needs and stopped importing, then our exports would only be a trickle and we could flog them to the US or ship them out of the east.

[Guest Derek L]

Then upgrade that pipeline. In the meantime we import 60% of our oil from places like Venezuela, and oil exports put a lot of pressure on other industries. If we took care of our own needs and stopped importing, then our exports would only be a trickle and we could flog them to the US or ship them out of the east.

What's wrong with "taking care of our own needs" out West? Then flogging the rest to the economical future in the Pacific Rim?

[dre]

What's wrong with "taking care of our own needs" out West? Then flogging the rest to the economical future in the Pacific Rim?

We use almost all of our oil back east, and we have to import it. Its stupid to ship oil IN to the east and ship it OUT of the west, when we could just move our own oil from A - B, and eliminate all of that tanker traffic. Its stupid for us to not be energy independ when we easily could be.

[Guest Derek L]

We use almost all of our oil back east, and we have to import it. Its stupid to ship oil IN to the east and ship it OUT of the west, when we could just move our own oil from A - B, and eliminate all of that tanker traffic. Its stupid for us to not be energy independ when we easily could be.

Well the oil companies and their investors certainly don’t think expansion to Asian markets is stupid……..And how much would it cost private companies to build pipelines "East"?

[Wild Bill]

No actually Harris was the one responsible to the infrastructure cuts that led to cross contamination conditions in Walkerton disaster go unrepaired.Not to mention the cuts to transfer payments to the municipalities

Adding more chlorine to water to kill harmful bacteria is also a harmful practice!Don't believe me?Read the label of a jug of chlorine bleach and tell me if it's safe to drink.And whatever you do,don't drink bleach because it WILL KILL YOU!!!

And what about the inspectors that are supposed to overlook the municipalities?Oh ya Harris cut them to.

Back to the rail disaster.

Cuts to safety=disasters!

WWWTT

Isn't that what I said? The Koebels were not responsible for being drunk all the time and falsifying tests. The Town of Walkerton was not responsible for gving the job to untrained and unreliable individuals and never checking up on them.

It was all Harris' fault! There should have been inspectors to check the inspectors! There should have been provincial inspectors to make duplicate tests of the town inspectors!

Actually, to be even more safe, there should be federal inspectors to watch both the town and provincial inspectors and who would take triplicate tests!

There! I have 100% agreed with all the inevitable ramifications of your argument.

What more do you want?

Oh, and as for your bleach example, don't you think the CONCENTRATION of bleach in the water is an important factor?

You do realize that if a baby ingests a tablespoon of salt at one swallow it will likely kill him? That a cup full would certainly kill you or me.

Obviously by your argument, we should have nothing to do with salt!

Perhaps there should be salt inspectors, municipal/provincial/federal that would all check each other.

The point is that some substances are not only harmless but necessary to life in the proper quantities. To not specify how MUCH is dangerous, as you did with your example, is about as precise as a one-armed fisherman trying to show you the size of the one that got away.

Dammit! Is nobody actually responsible for what they DO anymore?

As far as I am concerned, Stan Koebel and his brother are murderers - plain and simple. That baby died because THEY falsified their tests! There is no way you can convince me that they simply made honest mistakes.

THEY were responsible for the testing and they committed criminal negligence. They got their jobs in the first place by political pull with the town council. So the council shares some responsibility as well.

If you put it ALL on Harris then you let these murderers off scot free. I simply cannot do that.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Wild Bill

[Topaz]

Apparently, the town is going to tell the rail line NOT allow oil tankers go through their town any longer, and understandingly so. I also, see other small communities doing the same where they travel through small towns and cities, and this is going to cost them big bucks and all they had to do was to invest in the RIGHT Tankers and they could have avoided all this.

[gunrutz]

When???

When Harper says so?

Rights delayed=rights denied!

People have questions that need to be answered,this tragedy must never happen again!(1977 Mississauga train derailment)

WWWTT

Are you for real? It can take many months to do a proper investigation, i have no doubt that you know this, it's just too bad that your hatred gets in the way of your rationality, Harper is not a TSB investigator, let those that are do their jobs, there have been air accidents in the last couple of years that still remain unsolved, this might be a relatively quick, or very long process.

Edited July 14, 2013 by gunrutz