U.S.' failure in Afghanistan

[Signals.Cpl]

Some people admire process. Some prefer results. In suggesting the Americans "did their job" in building a government you're admiring the process even though the results are abysmally bad.

The results? From where I am standing the results are good... why? Please be more specific.

[Signals.Cpl]

The situations are similar but not identical. The US was able to establish a real, legitimate government in Iraq which has general support across the nation. There is virtually no support left for the previous regime and no active military resistance on their behalf. The fighting in Iraq is between communities. In Afghanistan, the Taliban have never been successfully suppressed, and continue to control large parts of the countryside. The government in control has no real support, is widely perceived as thoroughly corrupt and incompetent, and has very little in the way of loyal, capable security forces at its disposal.

And the Taliban do not enjoy support of loyalty either, they receive their "support" through violence and intimidation and we have seen over the last year or so the people oppressed by the Taliban revolting against them, people have had enough and they make themselves heard. Also to be fair the US had the exact same problem with Loyalty within the Iraqi Forces as they do within Afghanistan's military.

[jacee]

Really? Any Source on that? Or are you talking about imaginary soldiers?

Not giving names. They're real. So is the pipeline.

[Signals.Cpl]

Not giving names. They're real. So is the pipeline.

So convenient, the good old a friend of a friend had a sister who had a boyfriend who had a brother who said that they had a pipeline so it must be true...

[Guest American Woman]

Not giving names. They're real. So is the pipeline.

I'm sure they are real. I'm also sure that the pipeline isn't.

[jacee]

I'm sure they are real. I'm also sure that the pipeline isn't.

Source?

It should be taken into account as well that the risks confronting the Trans-Afghanistan pipeline project will further escalate with the completion of the US withdrawal from Afghanistan in 2014.

http://en.rian.ru/international_affairs/20120530/173754484.html

Edited June 30, 2013 by jacee

[Signals.Cpl]

Source?

Once you give us your source...

[Shady]

Because it is the right of the Afghan Government to do as they see fit. This means that the government of Afghanistan is independent AKA the Americans did their job, they helped a nation build a government and a security apparatus and they are letting that nation make independent decisions.

It absolutely IS the right of the Afghan Government to do as it sees fit. The Taliban isn't the Afghan Government.

[Guest American Woman]

Source?

Here's the thing. There aren't sources for all of the things that don't exist in the world. But there are sources for the things that do. Since there are no sources for this pipeline, it no more exists in Afghanistan than Santa Claus does.

[Signals.Cpl]

It absolutely IS the right of the Afghan Government to do as it sees fit. The Taliban isn't the Afghan Government.

And I never said that they were, what I am saying is that if the government of Afghanistan deems it to be in their interest to negotiate with the Taliban then they should do so, just like they saw it as being in their interest to give amnesty to the Taliban a coupe of years back. For every Taliban who is persuaded to drop his weapon that is one less Taliban to fight the ANA and ANP. If they can remove some of the less devoted of the Taliban power to them, I doubt it will amount to much but I hope that they sap the strength of the Taliban at the negotiating table rather than the battlefield.

[WWWTT]

After 12 years of war, with thousands of innocent Afghanis killed, thousands of American soldiers killed, trillions of money spent fighting against the Taliban, the U.S. is pulling out and is now trying to negotiate with the Taliban.

How many more times should we see failures like this before the war advocates realize that it's a failing system?

The US led NATO Afghan failure started in the 80's when Reagan and Thatcher started to oppose USSR and fund/arm Osama and anyone opposing the atheist/communists!

Like the saying goes,you reap what you sow!

WWWTT

[bush_cheney2004]

The US led NATO Afghan failure started in the 80's when Reagan and Thatcher started to oppose USSR and fund/arm Osama and anyone opposing the atheist/communists!

Like the saying goes,you reap what you sow!

Yes...the USSR no longer exists...and Osama was shot dead a while back.

Edited June 30, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[WWWTT]

Yes...the USSR no longer exists...and Osama was shot dead a while back.

Know what else that doesn't exist? The trillions of US dollars lost,thousands of US soldier lives and countless Afghan lives.

But hey,at least the US created the newest opium/heroin producer in the world!

You have a funny way of saying that ya,the US messed up bad.

Well anyways,back on the ignore list for you my friend.

Enjoy writing comments I will thankfully not read!

WWWTT

[bush_cheney2004]

Well anyways,back on the ignore list for you my friend.

Enjoy writing comments I will thankfully not read!

Promises...promises....you will be back, just like all the rest.

[roy baty]

The world was pretty violent then, too. Nature is filled with violence. Watch a lion go in for the kill, for example. The end result is either a violent death - or a very hungry lion. Beauty and cruelty - that's what the world consists of.

Not sure why you're arguing the point that human beings have never known peace with the above statement, but I do get the violence bit.. Such is nature AM, however the carnal human mind differs greatly from the beasts. We have a choice whereas the beast does not. Soon there will be a government ruled by someone greater than man that will bring true world peace.

[Signals.Cpl]

Know what else that doesn't exist? The trillions of US dollars lost,thousands of US soldier lives and countless Afghan lives.

But hey,at least the US created the newest opium/heroin producer in the world!

You have a funny way of saying that ya,the US messed up bad.

Well anyways,back on the ignore list for you my friend.

Enjoy writing comments I will thankfully not read!

WWWTT

But you know what exists? More options, choices, freedom whatever you want to call it, for young women in Afghanistan, more than what they ever had under the Taliban...

Its funny how the fools are praying for a defeat in Afghanistan just so they say "I told you so" ignoring the fact that if their prayers come true millions of people will suffer, millions of women will go back to being raped, beaten and murdered at the whim of their "husbands", millions of young women will be denied an education or a meaningful career aside from be a slave to their husband or being sold to actual sexual slavery not that there is any real difference as they suffer equally either way...

[Signals.Cpl]

Not sure why you're arguing the point that human beings have never known peace with the above statement, but I do get the violence bit.. Such is nature AM, however the carnal human mind differs greatly from the beasts. We have a choice whereas the beast does not. Soon there will be a government ruled by someone greater than man that will bring true world peace.

Greater than man as in "god"? Once religion gets involved in government things get more violent rather than less so.

[Scotty]

And the Taliban do not enjoy support of loyalty either, they receive their "support" through violence and intimidation and we have seen over the last year or so the people oppressed by the Taliban revolting against them, people have had enough and they make themselves heard. Also to be fair the US had the exact same problem with Loyalty within the Iraqi Forces as they do within Afghanistan's military.

No they didn't. Iraq was a country. Afghanistan is a collection of tribes and clans. None of the members of the Afghan military has any loyalty for Afghanistan. Their loyalty is to their tribal and clan leaders. And their leaders have no loyalty to anyone but themselves. The only thing holding Karzai in power is foreign troops. As soon as they're gone, he's gone.

[Signals.Cpl]

No they didn't. Iraq was a country. Afghanistan is a collection of tribes and clans. None of the members of the Afghan military has any loyalty for Afghanistan. Their loyalty is to their tribal and clan leaders. And their leaders have no loyalty to anyone but themselves. The only thing holding Karzai in power is foreign troops. As soon as they're gone, he's gone.

Afghanistan was a country before the Soviets invaded as well, besides Iraq was one breath away from collapse for most of the last decade and they still are as they have three main groups within the country. Each group had or some still have their own militia's, some segments of the Iraqi military were used for sectarian violence as death squads. The situation was not much different than Afghanistan and in some ways it was much worse yet the Iraqi military is still holding firm in their country even though the three major ethnic/religious groups within its borders are not big fans of each other.

You are hoping for a defeat it is as simple as that, reality is we will not know for sure until the US pulls out and if the ANA and ANP hold firm and keep the country together it was successful, otherwise it would be failure but we would not know until it happens. For the moment it is success because the US is giving more and more freedom to the Afghanistan Government and they are still surviving.

[Scotty]

You are hoping for a defeat it is as simple as that, reality is we will not know for sure until the US pulls out and if the ANA and ANP hold firm and keep the country together it was successful, otherwise it would be failure but we would not know until it happens. For the moment it is success because the US is giving more and more freedom to the Afghanistan Government and they are still surviving.

I am not 'hoping' for a defeat. Stop personalizing things. All I am saying is the US has built nothing in Afghanistan that will endure. Their fixation on democratic government has allowed an incompetent, corrupt man of no substance to sit in the president's chair for the last decade instead of someone who might have been able to build alliances and create a solid structure of government. He and his family will take his millions and leave soon after the US goes, and the government, such as it is, will collapse as various warlords and provincial governors make deals with the Taliban.

The US and NATO should never have gone in there in the first place beyond searching for Bin Laden, who wound up being found in the back yard of their so-called allies instead.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Scotty

[Signals.Cpl]

I am not 'hoping' for a defeat. Stop personalizing things.

But you are, nothing has happened yet you are calling it. The reality is that we wont know one way or another for some time but for the moment the ANA and ANP remain standing and capable of fighting therefore its success for the moment this might change in a month, year or a decade but at the moment it is a success.

All I am saying is the US has built nothing in Afghanistan that will endure.

That remains to be seen, I would venture to say that they have right along with the other ISAF nations build a lot that will remain but then again that remains to be seen.

Their fixation on democratic government has allowed an incompetent, corrupt man of no substance to sit in the president's chair for the last decade instead of someone who might have been able to build alliances and create a solid structure of government.

And maybe that will change at some point in the future, the reality is that many nations throughout the world change their government yet they endure.

He and his family will take his millions and leave soon after the US goes, and the government, such as it is, will collapse as various warlords and provincial governors make deals with the Taliban.

Thats what they said about Iraq, they said it will end up a three way civil war once the US goes yet here we are with Iraq still more or less intact.

The US and NATO should never have gone in there in the first place beyond searching for Bin Laden, who wound up being found in the back yard of their so-called allies instead.

It's about 12 years too late for that position, it would have been helpful in 2001 but now we have a problem that has to be solved and I think it has been to a degree.

[WWWTT]

But you know what exists? More options, choices, freedom whatever you want to call it, for young women in Afghanistan, more than what they ever had under the Taliban...

Its funny how the fools are praying for a defeat in Afghanistan just so they say "I told you so" ignoring the fact that if their prayers come true millions of people will suffer, millions of women will go back to being raped, beaten and murdered at the whim of their "husbands", millions of young women will be denied an education or a meaningful career aside from be a slave to their husband or being sold to actual sexual slavery not that there is any real difference as they suffer equally either way...

Know what else exists?

Afghanistan is still the world leader in producing refugees!

How is it that you claim that there is more opportunity there,but people are still leaving in record numbers?

How about you provide a link to back up your claim?

Here's mine.

http://www.ifaroo.com/ad1/AZfD_9Cs1JhP6_15FfVyL1t7jvamKFPk0O_kIK3fNAfIS9cBaW3A-AWEVFXJugclDtPe9LxB3DH3jCFT8rmQqP0XZ58XDcj5-9YFb2OZqkU

I find it insulting that you are calling the people who sincerely want to see improvement in Afghanistan "fools"

I guess you don't like people criticizing how the US led NATO mission went wrong.

Oh and by the way,just because you point out some of the day to day human rights violations,doesn't mean that the US and NATO is solving them!

You are making the false implication that currently,there are no rapes or human right violations occurring.But if the US/NATO fails,then there will be a return of such violations!

Man,that's just sad.

WWWTT

[Guest American Woman]

The US and NATO should never have gone in there in the first place beyond searching for Bin Laden, who wound up being found in the back yard of their so-called allies instead.

Why do you think bin Laden ended up being in Pakistan? - The obvious reason is because the U.S. et al was in Afghanistan. But as you pointed out, he was "found." Mission accomplished.

[Guest American Woman]

....we will not know for sure until the US pulls out and if the ANA and ANP hold firm and keep the country together it was successful, otherwise it would be failure but we would not know until it happens. For the moment it is success because the US is giving more and more freedom to the Afghanistan Government and they are still surviving.

We don't know if the Afghanistan government will hold firm and keep the country together, as you said, but if it's a failure, it's Afghanistan's failure. All the U.S. et al could do is set the stage. The rest is up to Afghanistan. It's sort of like 'you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink' - ie: all we could do is provide the opportunity.

[Signals.Cpl]

Know what else exists?

Afghanistan is still the world leader in producing refugees!

How is it that you claim that there is more opportunity there,but people are still leaving in record numbers?

How about you provide a link to back up your claim?

Here's mine.

http://www.ifaroo.com/ad1/AZfD_9Cs1JhP6_15FfVyL1t7jvamKFPk0O_kIK3fNAfIS9cBaW3A-AWEVFXJugclDtPe9LxB3DH3jCFT8rmQqP0XZ58XDcj5-9YFb2OZqkU

Its cute that you think that all those problems will be solved at once... the situation is not rosy yet its magnitudes better than it was during the summer of 2001 or at anytime in the few decades before...

I find it insulting that you are calling the people who sincerely want to see improvement in Afghanistan "fools"

I guess you don't like people criticizing how the US led NATO mission went wrong.

I have no problem with criticism, I know the mission in Afghanistan had a lot of problems yet I don't sit and pray that everything disintegrates just so I can put my nose up and give a big I told you so... You are not interested in improving anything, you are interested in Afghanistan failing so you can point to the US and call them the bad guy, I mean after all the prediction for Iraq did not come true Afghanistan HAS to be the one, right?

Oh and by the way,just because you point out some of the day to day human rights violations,doesn't mean that the US and NATO is solving them!

You are absolutely right, its not like females get to go to school right? Or get a chance to have a career right? Or exponentially more protection from abuse than under the Taliban?

You are making the false implication that currently,there are no rapes or human right violations occurring.But if the US/NATO fails,then there will be a return of such violations!

No I said there were significantly less, the Taliban made a culture of treating women as animals, Afghanistan at any point after the fall of the Taliban is significantly better, and it gets better with every day. It gets better with every female ISAF officer or NCM who shows that women can command men, it gets better every time a school opens its doors to educating girls, it gets better every time there is a new female doctor, police officer or soldier. Afghanistan will not be well off for another Generation or two, what the US and ISAF gave them is the chance to build a better future for themselves by being able to protect themselves in the present.

Man,that's just sad.

WWWTT

You are right, it is sad, praying for failure just so you can be "right".

Edited July 1, 2013 by Signals.Cpl