Scotty Posted July 25, 2013 Report Posted July 25, 2013 It's called staying on topic. As per forum rules. We have several Syria threads. Well, one anyway. I'm simply pondering the continuous attention given to a relatively small country with a spotty, but far from horrible human rights record given the lack of concern for all the much larger nations with much worse human rights records. What is the reason for all this attention? Why do you care so much? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 25, 2013 Report Posted July 25, 2013 It's a re-occurring method of taking attention away from Israel. Also, Canada and U.S. do not support Syria. Neither politically or financially. So we have very little control over what happens there. We (our governments) also condemn and do not support all the atrocious acts by the Syrian government, while staying quiet while Israel continuously breaks international law. China breaks international laws all the time, so does Russia and Iran and North Korea and many others. So does the US, on occasion. All the major powers break international law whenever they feel it's in their interest to do so. I have never figured out why people get so exorcised about little Israel. What it's doing, given the circumstances in which it finds itself, isn't a tithe on what so many others do. And yet nobody protests against them. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
GostHacked Posted July 25, 2013 Report Posted July 25, 2013 Well, one anyway. I'm simply pondering the continuous attention given to a relatively small country with a spotty, but far from horrible human rights record given the lack of concern for all the much larger nations with much worse human rights records. What is the reason for all this attention? Why do you care so much? We have enough threads that get off topic to the point of stupidity. Hudson Jones may be considered a hack by some here, for the Arabic populations in the area does not mean we need to get off topic. If you have a concern about another country, you could always make a thread and we can talk about it. You have options. Quote
Scotty Posted July 25, 2013 Report Posted July 25, 2013 We have enough threads that get off topic to the point of stupidity. Hudson Jones may be considered a hack by some here, for the Arabic populations in the area does not mean we need to get off topic. Okay, fine. But if you want to talk about the failings of Israel shouldn't we have a yardstick to measure how bad those failings are? If Israel is a racist state or has racist laws what are we using as a yardstick? If we are condemning them for human rights violations, where along the bell curve would they sit as compared to everyone else? Are we comparing them to other states in that general area? If not, why not? Whose standards are we using? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
bleeding heart Posted July 25, 2013 Report Posted July 25, 2013 Well, I see the tu quoque arguments are out in full force. Well, then, of course--given the self-evident honesty and principled stances of everyone involved--every time Islamist terrorism is brought up, they must of course mention terrorism conducted or supported by the West...which, after all, eclipses (for a salient example) Palestinian terrorism by a good measure. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
DogOnPorch Posted July 25, 2013 Report Posted July 25, 2013 Well, I see the tu quoque arguments are out in full force. Well, then, of course--given the self-evident honesty and principled stances of everyone involved--every time Islamist terrorism is brought up, they must of course mention terrorism conducted or supported by the West...which, after all, eclipses (for a salient example) Palestinian terrorism by a good measure. Meh...the next time Israel lays a beating on Hamas, both you and I know Hamas will deserve it. Same goes for Hezbollah. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bleeding heart Posted July 25, 2013 Report Posted July 25, 2013 Meh...the next time Israel lays a beating on Hamas, both you and I know Hamas will deserve it. Same goes for Hezbollah. Does your enthusiasm for laying a beat-down on terrorists apply universally? Or does it start and stop oh-so-conveniently with Arabs? Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
DogOnPorch Posted July 25, 2013 Report Posted July 25, 2013 Does your enthusiasm for laying a beat-down on terrorists apply universally? Or does it start and stop oh-so-conveniently with Arabs? You know better than that. That ringing in my ear is from an IRA bomb...not Arab. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bleeding heart Posted July 25, 2013 Report Posted July 25, 2013 You know better than that. That ringing in my ear is from an IRA bomb...not Arab. Sure, and my verbal carelessness aside, I actually wasn't insinuating anything racist, which I know full well is not your shtick. I was only referring to your apparent lack of concern over Western terrorism in general...which, like I said, has been far more expansive and devastating than anything dreamed of by Hamas. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
DogOnPorch Posted July 25, 2013 Report Posted July 25, 2013 Sure, and my verbal carelessness aside, I actually wasn't insinuating anything racist, which I know full well is not your shtick. I was only referring to your apparent lack of concern over Western terrorism in general...which, like I said, has been far more expansive and devastating than anything dreamed of by Hamas. That depends what one refers to as Western terrorism. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Hudson Jones Posted July 26, 2013 Author Report Posted July 26, 2013 China breaks international laws all the time, so does Russia and Iran and North Korea and many others. So does the US, on occasion. All the major powers break international law whenever they feel it's in their interest to do so. I have never figured out why people get so exorcised about little Israel. What it's doing, given the circumstances in which it finds itself, isn't a tithe on what so many others do. And yet nobody protests against them. Are you equating Israel's behaviour to China, Russia, Iran and even North Korea? Name one country today, in the West, who is occupying and violating the rights of another people for over decades? Can you believe that Israel is actually debating to confiscate land from 40,000 Bedouins in the occupied territories and then resettling them somewhere else? Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Rue Posted July 26, 2013 Report Posted July 26, 2013 Are you equating Israel's behaviour to China, Russia, Iran and even North Korea? Name one country today, in the West, who is occupying and violating the rights of another people for over decades? No the point is you are not. You select Israel out as the only nation in the world with the critiques you hold it to, not the Palestinians, any Sharia law nation in the Middle East or Arab League nation in the Middle East. You treat Israel in a vacuum as if its actions happen in isolation and not as a reaction to the parties I just mentioned. The point is the above nations you have never criticized. More to the point you again show your ignorance of history and I suggest you find out for yourself which Western nations continue with unresolved legal conflicts no different than Israel including Spain, France, Italy, Serbia, Croatia, Albania, Greece and Turkey to name but a few. I haven't even mentioned the dispute still on going between Gibraltar and Spain, between Spain and the former Spanish Sahara. Morocco. You again broadcast for all to see your ignorance we to Western Europe's history and current border disputes and manifest this absurd conclusion that because you are oblivious to it, it does not exist. Quote
Rue Posted July 26, 2013 Report Posted July 26, 2013 While we are on the topic, someone explain to this propaganda site what Egypt, Lebanon, Syria,Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan have done with their Beduins. The ignorance is remarkable. In fact across the Middle East from the tip of Morocco to the borders of Pakistan the Beduin people have been caught in a world of modern urbanization. Beduins like many other peoples of the Middle East find themselves squeezed and unable to continue as nomadic peoples without a border and able to move all the time where they want. The world has changed. This issue is not specific to Israel but once again this propaganda site asks in disbelief as to this issue or the fact that the lack of space in Israel for Beduins is a geographic reality not based on anything else. This site's feigning incredibility at the issue makes me puke with its insincerity and selectivity pretending Beduins have not been treated worse by Arab League nations. Just another example of trying to again misrepresent issues intrinsic to all nations of the Middle East as an isolated evil that came about only because of the curse of Zionism. Such a crock. Quote
Scotty Posted July 26, 2013 Report Posted July 26, 2013 Well, I see the tu quoque arguments are out in full force. Well, then, of course--given the self-evident honesty and principled stances of everyone involved--every time Islamist terrorism is brought up, they must of course mention terrorism conducted or supported by the West...which, after all, eclipses (for a salient example) Palestinian terrorism by a good measure. The West does not commit acts of terrorism. I realize some like to bend the english language into pretzels to try and excuse Islamist violence, but the incidental and accidental deaths attributed to western political or military moves is not akin to terrorism. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 26, 2013 Report Posted July 26, 2013 That depends what one refers to as Western terrorism. I think i means if a western politician drives a big car that's the same as an Islamist deliberately targeting a bus load of children and killing them all. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 26, 2013 Report Posted July 26, 2013 Are you equating Israel's behaviour to China, Russia, Iran and even North Korea? No, of course not. Israel has far more respect for human rights and freedom than such countries. I'm merely asking what your yardstick is given the intensity of your concern. Name one country today, in the West, who is occupying and violating the rights of another people for over decades? Israel is in the middle east. Surprised you didn't know that. But I guess it gets you out of complaining about Russia or China because they're not in the West, right? Thus your lack of concern about their occupying other people's territories. Name one country today, anywhere, which is surrounded by violently inclined enemies and which has to fortify its borders because of the legions of crazy murderers who will do anything to just kill an Israeli -- any Israeli. NAme any country where terrorists are waiting, watching, and constantly, desperately trying to sneak across, to fly across, to tunnel under, to come in from the sea, desperate to get in just to kill every person they come across? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
DogOnPorch Posted July 26, 2013 Report Posted July 26, 2013 I think i means if a western politician drives a big car that's the same as an Islamist deliberately targeting a bus load of children and killing them all. The lines have been blurred. A "Canadian" was apparently behind the Hezbollah terror attack in Bulgaria. But, I'm sure he enjoys hockey. http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/07/25/pol-bulgaria-suspect-canadian.html Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted July 26, 2013 Report Posted July 26, 2013 The West does not commit acts of terrorism. You have me in stitches here dude! Too funny. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 26, 2013 Report Posted July 26, 2013 You have me in stitches here dude! Too funny. Any examples? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted July 26, 2013 Report Posted July 26, 2013 Any examples? None that you would accept. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 26, 2013 Report Posted July 26, 2013 None that you would accept. Really? Terrorism that I wouldn't consider terrorism? I think you just don't have any examples. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted July 26, 2013 Report Posted July 26, 2013 Really? Terrorism that I wouldn't consider terrorism? I think you just don't have any examples. Have fun fishing. I'll be in the other threads. Quote
Scotty Posted July 26, 2013 Report Posted July 26, 2013 Really? Terrorism that I wouldn't consider terrorism? I think you just don't have any examples. The definition of terrorism by those on the Left depends on who they're talking about. If you're talking about Americans, then just about anything counts as terrorism. A lot of people on the Left despise the West, and would only be happy living in something like Stalinist Russia or Mao's China. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
DogOnPorch Posted July 26, 2013 Report Posted July 26, 2013 The definition of terrorism by those on the Left depends on who they're talking about. If you're talking about Americans, then just about anything counts as terrorism. A lot of people on the Left despise the West, and would only be happy living in something like Stalinist Russia or Mao's China. I think we've just seen an example. Terrorism by the West is everywhere...no, I can't show it to you. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bleeding heart Posted July 26, 2013 Report Posted July 26, 2013 (edited) The West does not commit acts of terrorism. I realize some like to bend the english language into pretzels to try and excuse Islamist violence, but the incidental and accidental deaths attributed to western political or military moves is not akin to terrorism. I am not excusing Islamist violence...I oppose all terrorism. Do you? Of course the West has been deeply and consciously involved in terrorism. In my view, the most obvious example is the material and diplomatic defense and support for the state terror that Indonesia visited first upon its own people, culminating in the bloodbath of 1965; and then the invasion and brutalization of the East Timorese people. The latter is an especially telling example because so many Western nations played a part (including Canada, at least diplomatically), and because its primary supporter, the United States, supported it for 25 years, under five administrations, making it a perfectly bipartisan affair. The usual response is that Western leaders "looked away," in the manner of, say Rwanda. That's a convenient way of putting it. But it has the slight problem of being false, as we know by (literally) thousands of documents....including declassified US documents, such as the one in which Ford and Kissinger explicitly gave Suharto the green light for the invasion, and offer assistance for it, the only proviso being that the Indonesian military and paramilitaries wait till Ford is back in Washington, so as to avoid any public embarrassment. The invasion and the numerous massacres (ultimately killing somewhere between 90 000 and 200 000 East Timorese, overwhelmingly non-combatants, innocent civilians) was supported, including militarily, with detailed understanding of what was going on. (As you can see in the National Security Archive link below. The "leftist media" remained, of course, sedulously silent (with a couple of notable exceptions). It appears their inclination was to support Power, in the usual formulation. So this was uncontroversially a case of terrorism--state terrorism, which Reagan (one of the attempted genocide's several supporters) famously deemed one of the world's greatest threats. Perhaps he was right; he should know, being a defender, supporter and enabler of it himself. But then, so were previous and subsequent Presidents, as well as numerous governments: The UK, Australia, France, and the rest of the rogues gallery. Canada too, though our involvement is murky, perhaps because less attention was focused on us, as activists (mostly leftists and Catholic groups, in concert with the courageous East Timorese dissidents) were mostly concerned with who was helping the most...with weapons. But there is a little info on the Canadian schizophrenic position, if you feel like looking at it. The UN lagged about as usual, but part of the problem was direct US interference, so that the essentially fascist regime could carry out its plans with, the US hoped, a quick finish so that embarrassing media reports would cease and the Indonesian occupation could be a success. So they upped their military aid, and sent US Special Forces to help train the military and paramilitary personnel. Since this was technically illegal, they adopted a bit of doublespeak, and said that the training exercises were really about training US Special Forces, rather than training a murderous occupation army, and machete-wielding militias...a side effect, evidently, incidental and coincidental. A tough propaganda sell....except of course to the usual Commissars screaming about "commies" (Which the East Timorese were not.) Hell, Madeline Albright opposed a referendum on East Timorese independence because "The [indonesian] army opposes it"; while Richard Holbrooke thought Indonesia should be given credit for stopping the E. Timor famine...which Indonesia had directly caused through genocidal policies. This was the way the Western powers were talking and thinking about the murderous situation in which they were directly complicit. So, there...that's one case, heavily documented, with more information coming out all the time. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB174/index.htm http://www.yale.edu/gsp/east_timor/ http://www.greens.org/s-r/14/14-16.html http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Asia/GenocideEastTimor_Z.html http://www.newrepublic.com/book/review/yet-another-disgrace-east-timor-genocide# Edited July 26, 2013 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
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