Wynne Open to allowing Non-Citizens to vote

[Fletch 27]

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2013/06/12/kathleen_wynne_open_to_noncitizens_voting_in_toronto.html

This Woman is OFF of her rocker.. And Why is she delving into Federal matters? And "Supporting" Toronto City Councils drive to allow this? Why has she never supported ANYTHING in another Municipality?

My parents became citizens along with my aunts and uncles desire to vote.. If not, why the hell become a Canadian?

This is simply this Nim-whits attempt to woo the soft Liberal base in DT Toronto.

We need an election before these wack-jobs ruin ALL of Canada.. Not just Ontario.. Oh yea, nothing left to ruin..

This is a democracy and becoming a citizen allows to INTO that fine realm.. Refusing to become a citizen of the country that you live in should KEEP you out of the democratic process..

[Boges]

This is probably going to happen. Though the vote was very close.

The constitution specifically says you have to be a Citizen to vote in Provincial and Federal elections, says nothing about municipal elections.

The argument for, is that the local governments deal with issues so integral to daily life that more people should have a say. Obviously you still have to be a resident of the jurisdiction.

[Fletch 27]

Simple... Become a citizen...

[Boges]

Simple... Become a citizen...

Sure, I don't disagree. I do ultimately think this a vote finding operation.

However we do see from the 2011 Federal election. Landed immigrants don't just automatically vote Liberal, often the opposite is the case.

[Fletch 27]

For me, I do not care if they vote Liberal, green, NDP or Conservative.. Allowing this to happen simply removes any and all motivation to BECOME a Citizen. What other privledge is remaining?

If you do not feel compelled to become a partner or contributor to the country that you are in, you likely don't agree with the criminal code, the policies of the masses, etc.etc.. And now Kathleen Wynne would allow them to influence the structure of Canada??

Sure, I don't disagree. I do ultimately think this a vote finding operation.

However we do see from the 2011 Federal election. Landed immigrants don't just automatically vote Liberal, often the opposite is the case.

[scribblet]

For me, I do not care if they vote Liberal, green, NDP or Conservative.. Allowing this to happen simply removes any and all motivation to BECOME a Citizen. What other privledge is remaining?

If you do not feel compelled to become a partner or contributor to the country that you are in, you likely don't agree with the criminal code, the policies of the masses, etc.etc.. And now Kathleen Wynne would allow them to influence the structure of Canada??

Wondering that too. Of what value is Canadian citizenship if there really isn't a need to acquire it. IMO allowing non citizens to vote devalues it (citizenship).

[Pliny]

And I would go further in the opposite direction by not even allowing some citizens to vote - Criminals for one.

[paultim374]

Landed immigrants don't just automatically vote Liberal, often the opposite is the case. However we do see from the 2011 Federal election.

[Wild Bill]

Wondering that too. Of what value is Canadian citizenship if there really isn't a need to acquire it. IMO allowing non citizens to vote devalues it (citizenship).

Canadian citizenship is of great value, Scrib.

You can live in Lebanon and collect Canadian pensions and benefits. When you need to be evacuated because the people in that region are so uncivilized that killing each other is their national sport, you get to complain about the quality of the cabin in the evacuation ship!

Even more, when the violence of the moment is over you can get some more aid in returning to Lebanon!

Our citizenship is indeed a precious thing.

[jacee]

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2013/06/12/kathleen_wynne_open_to_noncitizens_voting_in_toronto.html

This Woman is OFF of her rocker.. And Why is she delving into Federal matters? And "Supporting" Toronto City Councils drive ...

What "Federal matters" ? You should read your link.

Toronto is proposing that permanent residents be able to vote in Toronto municipal elections.

These are people who have homes, businesses, jobs, pay taxes and contribute to the local economy, are on track to become citizens. Municipal elections are a good opportunity for them to be gradually introduced to Canadian politics and governance.

[Wild Bill]

What "Federal matters" ? You should read your link.

Toronto is proposing that permanent residents be able to vote in Toronto municipal elections.

These are people who have homes, businesses, jobs, pay taxes and contribute to the local economy, are on track to become citizens. Municipal elections are a good opportunity for them to be gradually introduced to Canadian politics and governance.

"on track to become citizens"? How do you know that? Many people remain landed immigrants or whatever until they die. Do you have anything to back up your opinion?

As for people having homes, businesses, pay taxes, etc, some do and some don't! I would think that those who have made such an investment would already have become citizens! Do you have a breakdown to offer of all the non-citizens in the municipality of Toronto as to how many work or run businesses? How many are simply dependents? How many are on some form of government assistance?

I would think that anyone astute enough to run their own business would see the advantages of citizenship and apply as soon as possible. If they choose NOT to apply, I would be very interested in WHY they don't want to be citizens yet still want to be allowed to vote!

Such an attitude would strike me as not just odd but outright suspicious.

[Michael Hardner]

I see value in allowing people of Toronto to vote, regardless of their status to the federal government. Indeed, it's one step closer to having Toronto be more independent, tax citizens income and take control of their own affairs. If the government of Canada takes our money and refuses to listen to our concerns, why should we pledge allegiance to them ?

Just a thought, and I'm by no means convinced but I see some logic here.

[Sandy MacNab]

Canadian citizenship is of great value, Scrib.

You can live in Lebanon and collect Canadian pensions and benefits. When you need to be evacuated because the people in that region are so uncivilized that killing each other is their national sport, you get to complain about the quality of the cabin in the evacuation ship!

Even more, when the violence of the moment is over you can get some more aid in returning to Lebanon!

Our citizenship is indeed a precious thing.

And very convenient as you so eloquently pointed out.

[Michael Hardner]

It isn't because of Lebanon that collecting CPP overseas is allowed, but because of Florida.

[jacee]

"on track to become citizens"? How do you know that? Many people remain landed immigrants or whatever until they die. Do you have anything to back up your opinion?

As for people having homes, businesses, pay taxes, etc, some do and some don't! I would think that those who have made such an investment would already have become citizens! Do you have a breakdown to offer of all the non-citizens in the municipality of Toronto as to how many work or run businesses? How many are simply dependents? How many are on some form of government assistance?

I would think that anyone astute enough to run their own business would see the advantages of citizenship and apply as soon as possible. If they choose NOT to apply, I would be very interested in WHY they don't want to be citizens yet still want to be allowed to vote!

Such an attitude would strike me as not just odd but outright suspicious.

Americans living permanently in Canada, due to marriage, careers etc, may be permanent resident non citizens forever it's true. I think they should be able to vote municipally. No doubt they can vote federally in the US, but they live and pay taxes here.

That's one example.

And those in the waiting period for citizenship certainly should.

Refugees would benefit from involvement in the community by voting locally, working or not.

[Moonlight Graham]

This is probably going to happen. Though the vote was very close.

The constitution specifically says you have to be a Citizen to vote in Provincial and Federal elections, says nothing about municipal elections.

The argument for, is that the local governments deal with issues so integral to daily life that more people should have a say.

So do provincial and federal governments/laws. It's just a matter of which level of government gets what power to make/enforce laws. This is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. It's infuriating! If you want to engage people in the democratic process I'd think citizenship would be step #1, not voting.

I sure hope Wynne is doing this for votes because if not she's gone mad.

[jacee]

So do provincial and federal governments/laws. It's just a matter of which level of government gets what power to make/enforce laws. This is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. It's infuriating! If you want to engage people in the democratic process I'd think citizenship would be step #1, not voting.

I sure hope Wynne is doing this for votes because if not she's gone mad.

You do realize this proposal is only about voting in Toronto municipal elections? Edited July 2, 2013 by jacee

[Wild Bill]

Americans living permanently in Canada, due to marriage, careers etc, may be permanent resident non citizens forever it's true. I think they should be able to vote municipally. No doubt they can vote federally in the US, but they live and pay taxes here.

That's one example.

And those in the waiting period for citizenship certainly should.

Refugees would benefit from involvement in the community by voting locally, working or not.

Your American example is probably mice nuts compared to the total number. I have met many people in my life who have been permanent landed immigrants.

Toronto has special ethnic demographics. There are large numbers of people in some ridings from cultures where women are not treated as well as we practice here. Not just some Muslim cultures either. There are large numbers of Italian and mediteranean mommas who not only have never taken citizenship but also have never learned English or French.

Would you go so far as to deny that significant numbers of these women, if allowed to vote, would simply vote as their husbands told them? For a political candidate who focuses on ethnic voters, allowing such non-citizens to be counted could sweep him or her into power, not because of the free choice of the women but because of the power of their men!

Is that really the sort of thing we want to see happen?

I am suspicious of why this issue has suddenly become a cause celebre. Why? Is it from some new found outrage about the supposed injustice of our system? That system has been around a LONG time! Why now?

I would say we should be considering who benefits the most. It seems obvious that it would not be councilors from Ford Nation who would be likely to get the majority of those new votes.

IOW, this is not a drive to correct a social injustice. It is just yet another example of political greed wanting to rig the game.

[Moonlight Graham]

You do realize this proposal is only about voting in Toronto municipal elections?

That's right, yes.

[jacee]

Your American example is probably mice nuts compared to the total number. I have met many people in my life who have been permanent landed immigrants.

Toronto has special ethnic demographics. There are large numbers of people in some ridings from cultures where women are not treated as well as we practice here. Not just some Muslim cultures either. There are large numbers of Italian and mediteranean mommas who not only have never taken citizenship but also have never learned English or French.

Would you go so far as to deny that significant numbers of these women, if allowed to vote, would simply vote as their husbands told them? For a political candidate who focuses on ethnic voters, allowing such non-citizens to be counted could sweep him or her into power, not because of the free choice of the women but because of the power of their men!

Is that really the sort of thing we want to see happen?

Don't we have a secret ballot so that people can vote however they want for whatever reason they want?

Most couples vote the same.

I am suspicious of why this issue has suddenly become a cause celebre. Why? Is it from some new found outrage about the supposed injustice of our system? That system has been around a LONG time! Why now?

I would say we should be considering who benefits the most. It seems obvious that it would not be councilors from Ford Nation who would be likely to get the majority of those new votes.

IOW, this is not a drive to correct a social injustice. It is just yet another example of political greed wanting to rig the game.

Who do you think is going to gain?

It makes sense to me to let people vote municipally as they are residents of the community. Who knows ... maybe it'll motivate more citizens to vote too!

[Wild Bill]

Don't we have a secret ballot so that people can vote however they want for whatever reason they want?

Most couples vote the same.

Who do you think is going to gain?

It makes sense to me to let people vote municipally as they are residents of the community. Who knows ... maybe it'll motivate more citizens to vote too!

Do you really think that a woman who has grown up in such a culture will be politically sophisticated enough to take advantage of a secret ballot to defy her husband's orders? If she has been kept in the kitchen since she arrived in Canada and still doesn't know English, she will be able to make an informed choice for a Toronto councilor?

Whatever. We obviously place a different value upon citizenship and thus have no common ground. No point in further debate.

Me, as I have said many times, I consider Toronto to be a foreign country, with values of its own not shared by any other part of not just Ontario but even Canada.

This is not a concern unless they bleed more tax money from the rest of us. I would support Toronto becoming independent and no longer financially tied to our provincial or federal governments.

Calm down all you anal-retentive types! I'm kidding! If you take something so outrageous to be true then you have a bigger problem!

Still, I confess I do think about the idea from time to time. This citizenship issue is one of those times. I suspect that Toronto is the only place in Canada that would ever entertain such a notion. I truly think that they just don't have much pride in being Canadian!

Perhaps that thought deserves a thread of its own.

[Michael Hardner]

This is not a concern unless they bleed more tax money from the rest of us. I would support Toronto becoming independent and no longer financially tied to our provincial or federal governments.

Cities are far more economically efficient than towns and disparate populations scattered over a wide area. Roads, infrastructure and services cost far more for the hinterlands. The cities actually are begging for more infrastructure money, as typified recently in Toronto's one cent now campaign.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2007/02/26/miller-gst.html

The idea that the urban economic engine 'bleeds money' is proof that the cities have no sympathies for their situation in the hinterland. No wonder we see foreign citizens who live in Toronto as closer to our ideals than complainers from the sticks.

[Wild Bill]

Cities are far more economically efficient than towns and disparate populations scattered over a wide area. Roads, infrastructure and services cost far more for the hinterlands. The cities actually are begging for more infrastructure money, as typified recently in Toronto's one cent now campaign.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2007/02/26/miller-gst.html

The idea that the urban economic engine 'bleeds money' is proof that the cities have no sympathies for their situation in the hinterland. No wonder we see foreign citizens who live in Toronto as closer to our ideals than complainers from the sticks.

Michael, I don't think the "hinterlands" resent the idea of cities per se. Rather, they in the main believe that many cities such as Toronto are responsible for their own plight, including the cost of infrastructure maintenance. They don't see why they should be taxed to bail out those who they perceive to be spendthrifts!

Toronto is an easy target for such feelings. As long as I have been old enough to read a newspaper I have seen accounts of Toronto wasting their money. Now pieces of the Spadina are falling down on the heads of motorists. If you put money for arts councils before repairing your infrastructure then to someone in a more rural area, where the demands of life force you to be more practical, a city perhaps deserves a reality check.

We can argue about the degree of waste in Toronto's municipal governance but that's just a diversion. The fact is plain that many if not most of those who live outside big cities believe they are being forced to pay for wastrels. Everyday they read their papers and see stories like Toronto Councl closing their bid for expensive programs like new street cars to send the work to a union shop, despite the higher cost.

Then when budget time comes around, Toronto demands more from the province and the feds.

There may not be a solution to this political problem. We have two groups with diametrically opposed values. Resentments will only grow and fester over the years.

Unless of course Toronto becomes a paragon of fiscal responsibility within the next few years! Despite the efforts of Rob Ford, I wouldn't hold your breath.

Given the population of Toronto, perhaps making it it's own province or some similar political unit may be a positive step in the right direction.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael, I don't think the "hinterlands" resent the idea of cities per se. Rather, they in the main believe that many cities such as Toronto are responsible for their own plight, including the cost of infrastructure maintenance. They don't see why they should be taxed to bail out those who they perceive to be spendthrifts!

You really aren't getting it. The issue is that Toronto already pays the bill for people in the country.

[Wild Bill]

You really aren't getting it. The issue is that Toronto already pays the bill for people in the country.

No Michael, I feel it is YOU who doesn't get it!

Go ahead and lecture the "hinterlands" about what you feel is the true state of affairs. They will not believe you!

In fact, you wll likely be hooted off the stage!

You remind me of a character who appeared years ago on that British soap opera, Coronation Street. His name was Percy Sugden and he was the nitpicker of the neighbourhood, always expounding on any neighbourhood issue and expecting his views to be considered gospel. If someone differed, he would threaten to write a letter to the local newspaper editor!

Often Percy actually was right but it didn't matter. His neighbours paid him little or no mind. They believed what they believed and Percy's arguments carried no weight with them.

The attitude of the populace outside of Toronto is a fact of life and something with which any politicians or government in Queens Park must deal. It doesn't matter if you have an iron clad argument. You are not going to change their minds by lecturing them.

No, what it would take is some very public examples of Toronto's council being truly fiscally prudent! Folks in the rest of Ontario demand to be shown, not told.

I will leave it to you to find such examples and to then change the minds of all those non-Torontonian citizens.

I'm too old and fat to go tilting at windmills.