U.S. is spying on its citizens and others

[kimmy]

He owes Bush an apology for campaigning against and criticizing the very things he's now expanding.

"I was for it before I was against it." -Kerry.

"I was against it before I was for it." -Obama.

In 2008, one of Obama's campaign promises was to protect whistleblowers. And it turns out that he has actually cracked down harder on whistleblowers than any president before.

I think the attacks on Snowden are beside the point. He fled to Hong Kong. He's off to Russia now. His girlfriend is a stripper. All of that may be true. So what?

-k

[Shady]

Not to worry, this champion of freedom, having fled to China because it's a bastion of free speech has now reportedly flown to Russia, that other champion of freedom, supposedly on his way to Venezuela. There, he'll be given all the freedom he wishes -- so long as he doesn't say or do anything critical of the government or its cronies.

Yep, he completely discredits himself with his China and now Russian road trip. At first I was sympathetic to his actions. But now he's completely lost me. As far as I'm concerned, at this point, he probably deserves the usual punishment dealt to traitors. Hanging.

[Shady]

"I was for it before I was against it." -Kerry."I was against it before I was for it." -Obama.In 2008, one of Obama's campaign promises was to protect whistleblowers. And it turns out that he has actually cracked down harder on whistleblowers than any president before.I think the attacks on Snowden are beside the point. He fled to Hong Kong. He's off to Russia now. His girlfriend is a stripper. All of that may be true. So what?-k

The so what is more aiding and abetting the enemy now. Going to China and Russia to divulge national security secrets to essentially police states has nothing to do with protecting civil liberties at home. He's just a punk now. I could care less about his girlfriend, who I think is a gymnast, not a stripper, not that it matters.

[kimmy]

So what's the message here? We should forget about the Fourth Amendment because Edward Snowden is a douchebag?

-k

[Guest American Woman]

So what's the message here? We should forget about the Fourth Amendment because Edward Snowden is a douchebag?

The Fourth Amendment isn't the only thing that matters.

[Topaz]

So, how is a person from any country, suppose to do with information against their government that could hurt their citizens or others? How many countries have whistle blower protection and is it protection there, if one is going against their country? I understand why he left, anyone would.

[kimmy]

The Fourth Amendment isn't the only thing that matters.

Does it matter more than Edward Snowden's travel itinerary?

-k

[Guest American Woman]

Does it matter more than Edward Snowden's travel itinerary?

It's not his travel itinerary per se that I'm critical of.

[Shady]

So what's the message here? We should forget about the Fourth Amendment because Edward Snowden is a douchebag?

-k

Nope, we don't forget about the fourth amendment. But we also don't excuse an individual sharing national security information with countries unfriendly to the United States. The later has nothing to do with the fourth amendment and civil liberties. Aiding countries that have significantly worse records when it comes to privacy and freedom undercuts any high ground Snowden had. I thank him for his initial action. Now it's time for him to go to jail. Because he sailed long past whistleblower long ago. Whistleblowers don't leave the country. And they certainly do share their information with dictatorial regimes.

[kimmy]

Can you elaborate?

The damage-control strategy in response to the surveillance revelations seems to be to attack Edward Snowden.

It seems like people who are framing this discussion in terms of whether they "respect" Snowden or "have sympathy" for him or whether they think he is a "hypocrite" for seeking refuge in countries with crappy human rights records have fallen for that strategy, by letting the conversation be about Snowden instead of the program that he exposed.

I think that the people responsible for this program ought to be forced to defend it on its merits and its legality, not on the basis of whether Edward Snowden is a douchebag.

-k

[kimmy]

Nope, we don't forget about the fourth amendment. But we also don't excuse an individual sharing national security information with countries unfriendly to the United States. The later has nothing to do with the fourth amendment and civil liberties. Aiding countries that have significantly worse records when it comes to privacy and freedom undercuts any high ground Snowden had. I thank him for his initial action. Now it's time for him to go to jail. Because he sailed long past whistleblower long ago. Whistleblowers don't leave the country. And they certainly do share their information with dictatorial regimes.

I'm not aware of any claims that Snowden is actually sharing any information beyond what he already revealed to the public in The Guardian newspaper article.

The charges of "aiding and abetting" America's enemies are founded on the claim that by revealing this program's existence, he has exposed their "security playbook" to the enemy (as one congressman put it.) I'm not aware of anyone claiming that he's going around shopping additional secrets that he didn't already reveal to the public; and the legal charges of "aiding and abetting" America's enemies are all founded on the initial newspaper report that you said you approved of.

-k

[Shady]

Can you elaborate?

The damage-control strategy in response to the surveillance revelations seems to be to attack Edward Snowden.

It seems like people who are framing this discussion in terms of whether they "respect" Snowden or "have sympathy" for him or whether they think he is a "hypocrite" for seeking refuge in countries with crappy human rights records have fallen for that strategy, by letting the conversation be about Snowden instead of the program that he exposed.

I think that the people responsible for this program ought to be forced to defend it on its merits and its legality, not on the basis of whether Edward Snowden is a douchebag.

-k

Like I said, I applaud his initial actions. But the issue isn't whether he's a douchebag, it's his sharing of other sensitive information with hositle governments. Why does China and Russia need to know the details of the program? Why do they need to know other details of other programs? He has 4 laptops with him, with much more than just information about the domestic programs. I think the country as a whole can walk and chew gum at the same time. They can have a discussion about whether or not these programs are necessary and legal, and also have a discussion about Snowden's other questionable actions regarding foreign governments. It's not an either or.

[cybercoma]

Not to worry, this champion of freedom, having fled to China because it's a bastion of free speech has now reportedly flown to Russia, that other champion of freedom, supposedly on his way to Venezuela. There, he'll be given all the freedom he wishes -- so long as he doesn't say or do anything critical of the government or its cronies.

They're also champions of not giving into US pressure, which is pretty important when you're trying to avoid being extradited.

[cybercoma]

Yep, he completely discredits himself with his China and now Russian road trip. At first I was sympathetic to his actions. But now he's completely lost me. As far as I'm concerned, at this point, he probably deserves the usual punishment dealt to traitors. Hanging.

The road trip discredits nothing. This is the true definition of an ad hominem. He could literally be Hitler himself and that wouldn't make a damn bit of difference with the argument that's being made against American policies here.

[cybercoma]

I think that the people responsible for this program ought to be forced to defend it on its merits and its legality, not on the basis of whether Edward Snowden is a douchebag.

-k

This highlights perfectly the faulty logic with the way this whole debacle is being framed.

[Guest American Woman]

Not to worry, this champion of freedom, having fled to China because it's a bastion of free speech has now reportedly flown to Russia, that other champion of freedom, supposedly on his way to Venezuela.

Evidently he's going to Ecuador. He can say 'hi' to Julian Assange.

[Hudson Jones]

As far as I'm concerned, at this point, he probably deserves the usual punishment dealt to traitors. Hanging.

What a goofball you are.

[Hudson Jones]

The Americans could have gotten him if they hadn't messed up:

The 30-year-old had not been stopped on his way to Chek Lap Kok airport, and was allowed to slip away on a hot and humid morning, despite American demands that he be arrested and extradited to face trial for espionage offences.

The reason?

The Americans had mucked up the legal paperwork, the authorities claimed in a statement released at 4.05pm local time. Hong Kong had no choice but to let the 30-year-old leave for "a third country through a lawful and normal channel".

Link

[Guest American Woman]

The Americans could have gotten him if they hadn't messed up:

The 30-year-old had not been stopped on his way to Chek Lap Kok airport, and was allowed to slip away on a hot and humid morning, despite American demands that he be arrested and extradited to face trial for espionage offences.

The reason?

The Americans had mucked up the legal paperwork, the authorities claimed in a statement released at 4.05pm local time. Hong Kong had no choice but to let the 30-year-old leave for "a third country through a lawful and normal channel".

Link

That's one story. Another story is that it put Beijing in a difficult position, so claiming that the extradition orders didn't fully comply with legal requirements under Hong Kong law gave them time for him to have the opportunity to be allowed to leave.

....there are strong suspicions in the former British colony that the Hong Kong authorities deliberately gave the fugitive NSA whistleblower time to get out.

Snowden's departure eliminates a possible fight between Washington and Beijing at a time when China is trying to deflect U.S. accusations that it carries out extensive surveillance of American government and commercial operations.

I strongly doubt that "the American had mucked up the legal paperwork."

[Argus]

So what's the message here? We should forget about the Fourth Amendment because Edward Snowden is a douchebag?

-k

I don't think the framers of the Fourth Amendment were worried about metadata being processed by computers. It's not like they're reading your email, you know, not without a warrant anyway.

[Argus]

So, how is a person from any country, suppose to do with information against their government that could hurt their citizens or others? How many countries have whistle blower protection and is it protection there, if one is going against their country? I understand why he left, anyone would.

First of all, how is the information he possessed hurting Americans? If he kept his mouth shut, as per the secrecy act he signed, how would Americans have been harmed. It's not like he revealed the government was secretly radiating people in bizarre experiments or something. He outed and gave details of a program whose existence was more or less assumed by everyone with even a passing understanding of the internet and what the NSA's mission statement is. A completely legal program which is supported by all branches of government and which is signed off by federal judges.

[cybercoma]

That's one story. Another story is that it put Beijing in a difficult position, so claiming that the extradition orders didn't fully comply with legal requirements under Hong Kong law gave them time for him to have the opportunity to be allowed to leave.

....there are strong suspicions in the former British colony that the Hong Kong authorities deliberately gave the fugitive NSA whistleblower time to get out.

Snowden's departure eliminates a possible fight between Washington and Beijing at a time when China is trying to deflect U.S. accusations that it carries out extensive surveillance of American government and commercial operations.

I strongly doubt that "the American had mucked up the legal paperwork."

So your position is that Hong Kong is lying? Why do you suppose that is? Do you think it has anything to do with the cyber espionage that the United States has been conducting against them that also just recently came to light? The Hong Kong authorities also asked the US to elaborate on that. If these claims of cyber espionage are true, why should they co-operate with a state that has been attacking them electronically?

[Argus]

I think that the people responsible for this program ought to be forced to defend it on its merits and its legality, not on the basis of whether Edward Snowden is a douchebag.

-k

I have no issue with the program as I understand it and said so at the beginning. Snowden's itinerary just shows what a flaming hypocrite he is when he snivels about how he's doing this because he cares so deeply for freedom.

[Argus]

So your position is that Hong Kong is lying? Why do you suppose that is? Do you think it has anything to do with the cyber espionage that the United States has been conducting against them that also just recently came to light? The Hong Kong authorities also asked the US to elaborate on that. If these claims of cyber espionage are true, why should they co-operate with a state that has been attacking them electronically?

China is almost certainly the worst in the world when it comes to electronic espionage. There are still Canadian government departments whose computer systems are unsafe several years after being penetrated by China. For them to whine about Americans doing it is a bit rich.

And they have a signed extradition agreement with the US. An honourable people would abide by their signed agreement. But the Chinese, let's face facts and history, have never been an honourable people. They sign agreement after agreement and then cheat on them before the ink is dry. Maybe Snowden should stay with them. He has the same concept of integrity.

[cybercoma]

I have no issue with the program as I understand it and said so at the beginning. Snowden's itinerary just shows what a flaming hypocrite he is when he snivels about how he's doing this because he cares so deeply for freedom.

And you say this because you assume he's selling information to the Chinese and Russians?

Do you think he's maybe stuck between a rock and a hard place with the US aggressively looking to attack him, despite Obama promising to protect whistleblowers, while China and Russia are saying to him, "Sure we'll help keep you away from them, but it'll cost you." The US dropped the ball pretty bad by going after him so publicly and so aggressively. Had they not done this, then he wouldn't have had to run and hide in these states that are going to refuse to play ball with the US. They're also states that probably told him if he wants safe passage, he's going to pay by giving them information that they want. None of that would have happened if the US wasn't so aggressive about trying to crush a whistleblower that simply brought to light something the public ought to know about.