Debate on a Downtown Toronto Walmart

[Boges]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/06/05/toronto-kensington-walmart-petition.html

"More than 50,000 people have signed an online petition opposing a proposed Wal-Mart shopping complex at Bathurst and Nassau streets, just west of Kensington Market.

Real estate firm RioCan announced its plans last week to build a three-storey building that would house a number of stores, including the retail giant.

Dominique Russell, the Kensington resident behind the online petition, says the proposed complex will have a negative effect on the area.

"It will change the character of the neighbourhood," she said.

Russell hopes the petition, which will be presented at a public meeting Thursday night, will send a strong message to city officials.

"There's no knockout punch with the developer. They own the property and they will come back. But I think we really need a strong public response because it can't be allowed to happen," she said."

If enough people don't want a Walmart in a certain location then people won't go and it will fail.

The fear here is that, people think the Walmart will succeed and put people out of work. Seems very anti-freedom doesn't it?

Regardless if you like Walmart, or not, they provide a service and they employ lots of people. Whenever I go to a Walmart it's usually in a strip mall or conventional mall with many other businesses. There are also usually other independent businesses located inside the Walmart.

Are we to believe those business are all suffering located next to or inside a Walmart? It's obvious other businesses can survive in a community with Walmart.

Walmart is a one-stop shop stuff. I don't go there when all I want is food, or when all I want is clothe. I usually go when there are other things I want, whether it be some clothing, a small appliance, a furnace filter, shoes, or toiletries.

Almost all retailers sell products made in China or other foreign countries so that argument is no longer valid.

This Walmart isn't going to be a gaudy big box. It would be a the top two floors of an existing building, the bottom floor will likely have other businesses. It's a very urban version of the chain.

I think the opposition to this smacks of elitism and is very un-capitalist. You think a tourist to downtown Toronto would go to a Walmart instead of Kensington Market? or people that want to go to the food market would say screw it, let's go to Market.

If you were to believe that then you would believe that any community that has a Walmart currently doesn't have a farmer's market or any boutique stores that sell high-end items.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Boges

[scribblet]

I didn't realize that they would only be on the top two floors, I thought it was going to be a big superstore thing that would destroy the ambiance of the area etc.

I don't think it would put the markets out of business as the produce is probably better than Walmart anyway and most the boutique stuff isn't available at Walmart. I'm not sure it's a bad thing, at least it's not for the shoppers who want lower prices.

[Black Dog]

Wal Mart is an awful, awful company and I would never shop there just to save a few bucks. Still, I think the line of opposition here is a bit screwy. It's not in the market, it's just outside the borders of it. People who appreciate what Kensington has to offer will continue to go there. Also, the market has changed a lot in just the few years I've been here. There's more bars, more upscale, boutique style shops and restaurants (like Sanagan's, Le Kensington etc.) and that's without the influence of big box chains. I don't think it's reasonable to expect to freeze a neighbourhood in amber in the face of changing demographics and market realities. That being said, i'm against the development simply because it will promote more traffic and gridlock in the core.

[Boges]

Wal Mart is an awful, awful company and I would never shop there just t. That being said, i'm against the development simply because it will promote more traffic and gridlock in the core.

Wouldn't that be the case for any retail development in the city? This building has a parking lot doesn't it? I saw one in the the picture.

As a side note. How do people who live in a downtown core, who don't use cars do the suburban tradition I partook in last Saturday. I emptied out my basement of empties of beer bottles and liqour bottles, drove to a beer store, returned them for a sizable discount on a new case of beer.

How do you even buy a case of beer without a car? I guess you could use a cab.

[Black Dog]

Wouldn't that be the case for any retail development in the city?

No, only ones designed for people to drive to to buy tons of crap.

This building has a parking lot doesn't it? I saw one in the the picture.

Yeah a big one. Which supports my point.

As a side note. How do people who live in a downtown core, who don't use cars do the suburban tradition I partook in last Saturday. I emptied out my basement of empties of beer bottles and liqour bottles, drove to a beer store, returned them for a sizable discount on a new case of beer.

How do you even buy a case of beer without a car? I guess you could use a cab.

I never take my bottles back, i just leave them on the curb and they are usually gone in five minutes. I've also never had an issue with taking lots of booze on the TTC or bike. It just takes a little planning is all.

[Boges]

No, only ones designed for people to drive to to buy tons of crap.

You could say that about any supermarket. I think Mike Layton was bitching about Loblaws too. So it's not just about American Box Stores. It's about places that sell lots of different stuff.

I never take my bottles back, i just leave them on the curb and they are usually gone in five minutes. I've also never had an issue with taking lots of booze on the TTC or bike. It just takes a little planning is all.

Carrying a 2-4 on a bike would be good times.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

You could say that about any supermarket.

Sure. And?

Carrying a 2-4 on a bike would be good times.

I just take the beer out of the case and put it in a couple of good sized panniers.

Mind you I almost never buy cases as I like to have a variety of beer son hand, so I usually just load up on tallboys.

[Boges]

Sure. And?

Just being clear, it's not about Walmart, it's about large retailers of any kind.

Wonder what would happen if they wanted to put a Canadian Tire there.

[Black Dog]

Just being clear, it's not about Walmart, it's about large retailers of any kind.

Wonder what would happen if they wanted to put a Canadian Tire there.

Well, it goes to that other debate we're having. I'm all for infill development so people don't have to drive out to the 'burbs for their crap (it's a pain in the ass for me to get a zip car everytime i want to hit IKEA). But Toronto's road infrastructure is lagging behind the pace of development and things like this just add to the problem. Now that I think about it, the real ill effect on Kensington would probably be nincompoops cutting through the market from Spadina.

[guyser]

the real ill effect on Kensington would probably be nincompoops cutting through the market from Spadina.

Wouldnt they be nincompoops for thinking that short cut would work? Im only down there Saturdays once in awhile and trafffic is always bad.

[DFCaper]

Just being clear, it's not about Walmart, it's about large retailers of any kind.

Wonder what would happen if they wanted to put a Canadian Tire there.

Maybe it is a low cost retailer in their area that they fear. Want the neighborhood to be only for the upper crust of society?? I am not familiar with that neighborhood, but I am wondering if this is the case.

[GostHacked]

You could say that about any supermarket. I think Mike Layton was bitching about Loblaws too. So it's not just about American Box Stores. It's about places that sell lots of different stuff.

Big box stores are all like that in any company. Hate them.

Carrying a 2-4 on a bike would be good times.

And have a couple pops on the way home. Nothing illegal about driving a non-motorized vehicle while under the influence! I think.

[Boges]

So Honest Eds is for Sale. It's located close to where this proposed Walmart that's making the locals freak out is.

If Walmart bought the Honest Eds location wouldn't the opposition to Walmart then be exposed as utter hypocrisy?

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/07/16/iconic-honest-eds-store-quietly-put-up-for-sale/

Edited July 16, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

So Honest Eds is for Sale. It's located close to where this proposed Walmart that's making the locals freak out is.

If Walmart bought the Honest Eds location wouldn't the opposition to Walmart then be exposed as utter hypocrisy?

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/07/16/iconic-honest-eds-store-quietly-put-up-for-sale/

Uh, only if the same people who are against Wal Mart at near Kensigton are in favour of a WalMart in place of Honest Eds.

[guyser]

Big box stores are all like that in any company. Hate them.

And have a couple pops on the way home. Nothing illegal about driving a non-motorized vehicle while under the influence! I think.

Do you honestly think Wal Mart would pay upwards of $100M for the spot?

I dont

[Michael Hardner]

Do you honestly think Wal Mart would pay upwards of $100M for the spot?

I dont

They might do it just for the publicity, I suppose. Really, I have no idea.

[Boges]

If not them, who? Another Condo?

It seems like a reasonable alternative since people are making a stink at the other location near Kensington.

[guyser]

If not them, who? Another Condo?

It seems like a reasonable alternative since people are making a stink at the other location near Kensington.

I think Condo with retail will be the final answer. I could see WM lease the entire street level floor w condo's above but all speculation

[Boges]

I've heard that building isn't sound enough to support a Condo. So it would have to be leveled and all those Heritage lovers will have a meltdown.

[guyser]

I've heard that building isn't sound enough to support a Condo. So it would have to be leveled and all those Heritage lovers will have a meltdown.

Use the shell only, happens all the time.

A Heritage designation would be a horrible thing should your last name be Mirvish ! I suspect he has that covered through various channels.

[Boges]

I guess the people down there aren't just opposed to Large US retailers. They hate Large Canadian retailers too.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/01/28/loblaws_set_to_open_beside_kensington_market.html

Grocery store giant Loblaws is set to open a new, “unique” location next to Kensington Market, on College St. west of Spadina Ave.

Despite protests and a petition by Friends of Kensington Market that has notched more than 7,000 signatures, Loblaw Companies Ltd. confirmed to the Star Tuesday that a 15-storey condo development at 297 College St. will include a Loblaws on the second floor.

“This will be a unique store, a smaller-than-usual footprint, and a creative second-story location,” said Kevin Groh, vice-president corporate affairs, in an emailed statement.

“It will be part of a mixed-use development, which is — by definition — designed to support the healthy combination of high-density living with various services and retail nearby.”

Groh said community members should not be worried about the Loblaws having a negative effect.

“We understand but do not share the concern about the impact a new grocery store will have on community vitality,” he said. “Our stores are proven to support local customers and local communities.”

Friends of Kensington Market has been pushing back against the chain grocery store since 2011, when Tribute’s condo development came to their attention.

“The backbone of the market is and has always been the small independent stores,” states the community association’s online petition against a Loblaws.

“These smaller stores, many generations old and family-run — are fragile. They may not withstand the impact of a Loblaws moving into the community.”

This Nimby attitude is so anti free market. Not everyone can afford over priced groceries at a tourist trap.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Boges

[GostHacked]

One thing to understand is that Loblaw has a property holding company that is as big, or bigger than Loblaw itself.

[guyser]

This Nimby attitude is so anti free market. Not everyone can afford over priced groceries at a tourist trap.

Huh?

[Boges]

Huh?

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/01/29/kensington_market_loblaws_is_toronto_becoming_a_city_of_no.html

Toronto seems to be all about saying No to development. AKA Nimbyism.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Boges

[Black Dog]

This Nimby attitude is so anti free market.

So in the free market, anyone should be able to do anything they want anywhere they want?

Not everyone can afford over priced groceries at a tourist trap.

LOLz. I go out of my way to shop in Kensington because stuff (especially produce) is generally (and often significantly) cheaper there than at Loblaw's.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Black Dog