Riots in Turkey

[GostHacked]

.... Day 4.

Riots over police brutalizing protesters in a sit-in to protest a park being replaced with a shopping mall.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/turkey-s-pm-president-divided-as-violence-flares-for-4th-straight-day-1.1308263

Turkey has been hit my demonstrations since Friday that grew out of anger over excessive police force against protesters holding a sit-in to prevent the uprooting of trees at Istanbul's main Taksim Square.

The demonstrations spiraled into Turkey's biggest anti-government disturbances in years, challenging Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's power. The protests were seen as a display of frustration against Erdogan, who has appeared to be increasingly authoritarian and is accused of meddling in all aspects of live.

If this goes more than a week, I would guess it will get bigger and there will be huge cries for Erdogan to step down, more so than what I have already seen.

[danielrw]

Power to the people I guess. Sometimes it's hard to tell during these protests what's really going on though. You see a few 10,000 people protesting and you assume it's the whole country. 74 million people live in Turkey.

[bush_cheney2004]

More people attend a Blue Jays game....well...some nights, anyway.

[GostHacked]

So when does NATO step in and help the uprising population to take down the so called 'fascist regime' that is Drogoban's government?

IF anything you are going to see western support for Drogoban and the west will help subdue this uprising. Just like it was done in Bahrain.

[GostHacked]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22793193

Police rounding up people suspected of starting the protests. When do we send some freedom to Turkey?

[-TSS-]

A clear rift between generations here. The youth won't have it the old way any more.

[eyeball]

A generational spring seems inevitable but maybe I'm just feeling a little older.

[Michael Hardner]

These protests don't sound much different to me than what happened in Quebec last year (was it last year ?)

This is Europe, remember. They protest there.

[Michael Hardner]

So when does NATO step in and help the uprising population to take down the so called 'fascist regime' that is Drogoban's government?

IF anything you are going to see western support for Drogoban and the west will help subdue this uprising. Just like it was done in Bahrain.

Has anyone ever suggested NATO step in to quell protests (not an uprising yet) in a NATO country ?

[GostHacked]

Has anyone ever suggested NATO step in to quell protests (not an uprising yet) in a NATO country ?

Bahrain is not a NATO country, but Saudi Arabia and the USA helped crush the uprisings there. Can't have that where the US Navy hosts their 5th Fleet.

But the way I see it, if Turkey gets into more problems with these protests and ends up toppling the government this will effect how NATO is supporting the FSA in Syria. If that happens, Assad will win and a two year civil war (in my view initiated by the west) will have failed to oust Assad.

[Michael Hardner]

Bahrain is not a NATO country, but Saudi Arabia and the USA helped crush the uprisings there. Can't have that where the US Navy hosts their 5th Fleet.

What happened to our Turkey discussion ? Are you saying that because the US intervenes in any country, they would intervene in a NATO country protest. Okay, well then I guess you're saying anything is possible. By the laws of physics, that's true but it makes it hard to decide what to reasonably discuss in a political forum.

But the way I see it, if Turkey gets into more problems with these protests and ends up toppling the government this will effect how NATO is supporting the FSA in Syria.

Turkey is nowhere near being "toppled". To discuss how such a thing would impact Syria seems bizarre to me. Turkey is in NATO. We could also discuss how the overthrow of England would affect our policy towards Egypt I guess.

[Guest Peeves]

Riots in Quebec were over a proposed raised tuition in the province with the lowest tuition of any. In other words a bunch of spoiled kids that have entitlement issues.

On the other hand, as I understand the demonstrations, Turkey has riots for freedom in society from the gradual implemantation of restrictive government turning more and more to sharia laws and fundamental demands for dress codes and loss of women's rights.

Quite a difference. Suggestion that they are the same is quite erroneous.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Peeves

[Michael Hardner]

It is a difference - but Sharia law is not in question here. One of the things they're protesting is the restriction of alcohol sales overnight - something we don't have in Ontario.

[Guest Peeves]

http://www.ideastream.org/news/npr/187334924

Among the many reasons for ongoing riots in Turkey: A recent law restricting the advertising and sale of alcohol. Secular Turks see the new rules as the latest effort by the ruling AK Party to impose religious values on the population.

Diners drinking raki, a traditional Turkish alcoholic drink flavored with anise, at a restaurant in Istanbul.

The ongoing anti-government protests in Turkey are about a lot of things — including a recent law to restrict the advertising and sale of alcohol. The limits aren't any more onerous than those in some other Western countries, but secular Turks see them as another step in a push by the ruling party to impose conservative social values on the population

The plan to take a park away for building sparked the riots, but, "the ruling AK Party to impose religious values on the population." That =sharia threat in many eyes.AND it should.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Peeves

[Guest Peeves]

The Turkish airlines have imposed stricter rules even on lipstick. There is a general fear that restrictions and infringement on the 'secular' country and human rights are being eroded and need a show of support for secular rights.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Peeves

[Michael Hardner]

That =sharia threat in many eyes.AND it should.

Link, please. The "restrictions" posed - so-called - from what I have seen are as such:

The Turkish government has imposed a strict ban on alcohol advertising and tightened restrictions on sales, totally prohibiting the sale of alcohol in stores from 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. -- a proposal the government insists is aimed at protecting the young from the negative effects of alcohol consumption.

http://www.askaysun.com/about-antalya/latest-news/107-turkish-government-imposes-strict-restrictions-on-alcohol-sales-and-ads.html

So - we're talking about imposition of religious values that still leave Turkey far more liberal than Ontario, for example.

[Guest Peeves]

In any Muslim country there are factions that will push for sharia law on any pretext.It is that concern that has the secular Turks responding on any issue that seems a camel's nose in the tent. Good for them.

http://www.ideastream.org/news/npr/187334924

Among the many reasons for ongoing riots in Turkey: A recent law restricting the advertising and sale of alcohol. Secular Turks see the new rules as the latest effort by the ruling AK Party to impose religious values on the population

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/erdogan-dreams-of-full-sharia-law-in-turkey/story-e6frgd0x-1226545827254

Erdogan dreams of full sharia law in Turkey

• by: Daniel Pipes

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/most-muslims-want-sharia-split-on-interpretation-study.aspx?pageID=238&nid=46047

i"n some countries where Muslims make up more than 90 percent of the population, relatively few want their government to codify Islamic law. In Turkey 12 percent support sharia as the national law"

[Guest Peeves]

Tens of thousands (it is now reported) are resisting an attack on the secular rights in place following Atatürk's reforms.

The increasing threats to the secularist culture by a regime that is inclined to take the country towards more Islamic religion/government has caused the riots. The riots started over the issue of a local park being torn up for a shopping mall.

When liberty is threatened there is revolt if there's opportunity.

[Guest Peeves]

A clear rift between generations here. The youth won't have it the old way any more.

Not so, they along with older generations want to retain the secular state their families back to Ataturk's reforms, have enjoyed. It is gradually becoming apparent that the regime in power would aspire to a more Islamic code.

The younger generation is in lock step with 'the old way.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atat%C3%BCrk%27s_Reforms

[GostHacked]

Not so, they along with older generations want to retain the secular state their families back to Ataturk's reforms, have enjoyed. It is gradually becoming apparent that the regime in power would aspire to a more Islamic code.

The younger generation is in lock step with 'the old way.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atatürk's_Reforms

I am thinking my prediction will come true. If this continues in Turkey it will be a blow to the Free Syrian Army that has been operating out of Turkey since the Syrian conflict started.

If this changes the direction Turkey wanted to go in, then things are going to get ugly, not that they already are.

[GostHacked]

This is an interesting thing.

I am not for violent protest, because I don't want to give anyone a reason to bust my chops. People are taking notice of this!!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/06/18/turkey-protests-erdogan.html

Protesters have adopted the new form of resistance, following the lead of Erdem Gunduz, a Turkish man who on Monday stood for hours in the square.

Seems like a great move, change the game on the government. Giving them the silent treatment makes them nervous.

[Rue]

Yegads I might agree with the Ghost on something.

The current uprising in Tuirkey is very interesting because Erdogan has thrown his support behind the Sunni Muslims in Syria and against Hezbollah and the Iranian Revolutionary Guard now openly fighting on behalf of Assad on the ground.Not long ago Erdogan was cozing up to Assad and Iran and Hezbollah and the Syrian cell operating Hamas and baiting Israel.Now oopsy, he has the US arrange an impromptu save my face with Israelas suddenly he realizes Syria, Hezbollah and Iran are Shiites and he is Sunni and ooopsy they don't like him.

So he puts his support behind the rebels who are in fact a gathering of many cells some atheist, some communist-socialist, others extremist Sunni Islam, i.e.,Al Qaeda. To do that he of course alienates his fellow citizens.

Turks LIKE Iranians were Westernized. You can put a leader like him in Turkey or have an Iranian cleric council put a stranglehold on Iran, but the people, of both country are Westernized. You can spew extremist Sunni (Turkjey) or Shiite (Iran) Islam at them, but the seeds of Western behaviour

are too deeply entrenched.

Iran can barely keep a strangehold on its restless population wanting to modernize and go back to being Western and rid themselves of the dinosaur age of extremist Islam.Try impose extremist Islam on Turks you will be sorry. They do not visualize themselves as religious extremists. They do not identify

with Sunni or Shiite extremists.

So now Erdogan has a problem. The Liberal moderates who put him in realize the same thing the Egyptians do about their leader-they have a bunch of rigid, inflexible dictators who say one thing and practice another.

The current Egyptian leader just came out all but calling for Egyptians to enter Syria to defend it against Shiites.

There is a civil war been Sunnis and Shiites. Fueling both are extremist Sunni Muslims and extremist Shiite Muslims and in between are a simply enormous range of Muslim peoples some religious, some not so religious, some fed up with religion, all fed up with corrupt politics and bankrupt economies all wondering how much longer the Muslim v.Muslim violence goes on.

See in this equation the attempt to blame the US or Israel falls short. Neither country sides with anyone. They find extremists on both sides equally

as problematic. What will most probably happen is we face a civil war in Lebanon, a possible military coups in Turkey,a reform movement springing out of yesterday's election in Iran all adding to the combustion in Syria.

Hamas extremists backed by Syria face an Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood who want Hamas back and Hezbollah and Iran out of Syria, the Gaza and Lebanon.

Now the US is in Jordan and there to stay which makes Israel and Jordan happy and Putin furious.

Putin has shown his true colours as a supporter of Shiite extremism as a convenient way to keep his own Sunni Chechnyan Muslims and other Muslims at bay.So has China. China and Russia with their own internal Sunni Muslim problems thought allying with Iran was away to buffer these Muslims.

Hasn't worked. They face even more uprisings now in their own nations as everyone becomes angry as Iran and Hezbollah lose their grip.

Make no mistake there will be another civil war in Lebanon and Jordan and Israel are gritting their teeth worrying about getting sucked in.

The move by the US into Jordan is badly needed. It was a necessary move to offer stabilization to an area and present a real concern for Hezbollah to watch itself on its other side.

Israel will not get involved in Syria but if anything spills onto its borders-look out.If it goes back into Lebanon because of Hezbollah violating its borders,all bets are off.

Erdogan has to cool it. This is not a time to have his military throw his butt out and it will if he does not cool it. The Turkish military is pro Western,pro US and barely tolerates him. Israel has strong allies within the Turkish senior military command built from years of working together before Erdogan was around. They both share an equal concern as to any extremism. So does Jordan. Those three nations are at best reluctant allies but their existence

is precarious without cooperation.

Man oh Man, Sudan, Egypt, Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Iran, Turkey, Afghanistan, Pakistan the Muslim populations in China and Russia, not to mention Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Mali, all capable of blowing up in a second. All gripped with inter Muslim factional disputes.

And we have not even mentioned the Philippines, Indonesia and Kashmir.

[Rue]

^{Turkey's support of extremist Sunni Muslim factions could well alienate his own followers. Erdogan created his own problems. Not too long ago he openly supported Iran, Hezbollah and the pro Syrian cell now controlling Hamas.}

^{Now he realizes ooopsy all of these parties are engaged in a war against his version of Islam. Oooooooopsy. So much for that alliance.}

^{Please do not ask me to feel sorry for this oaf.}

^{He's been hoisted by his own pretentious petard.}

^{He should have thought about it when he was openly inciting terrorists to run the blockade off the coast of Gaza knowing that}

^{was not a solution to finding peace with Hamas the very Hamas that now supports Assad.}

^{Take a look. Just yesterday as a reformist gets elected in Iran, the Egyptian President not surprisingly who is a member of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood who wants Hamas back calls on his citizens to volunteer to go into Syria and fight the Hezbollah.Hah.}

^{You have Iranian Revolutionary Guard and Hezbollah on the ground in Syria wiping out Syrian Sunni Muslims.}

^{You have Sunni extremist Muslims in Syria from other countries wiping out not just Hezbollah and Shiites, but their own Sunni Muslims for not being religious enough.}

^{You have chaos. Absolute chaos because Muslim extremists whether Shiite or Sunni will kill anyone including their own people.}

^{The key to Islamist extremist from either Shiite or Sunni factions is that each cell's leader has their own version of Islam.}

^{Each cell leader engages in violence to impose their beliefs as to how the religion should be expressed.}

^{This means Shiite Muslims fear their own leaders and government as do Sunnis just as much as they do their enemies.}

^{This is precisely why Turks are fed up.Turks like Iranians see themselves as Westerners first. They have not embraced the kind of}

^{Islamic extremism the Iranian clergy council in Iran or the Erdogan Sunni ideologists of Turkey would have liked for their citizens.}

^{This is why Erdogan now must act brutally as his counterparts in Syria and Iran have made a history of.}

^{The difference though is in Turkey the military will not hesitate to seize back power if it has too.}

^{There is a very real possibility if Edrogan loses control as his people resist religious extremism and the support of extremism Muslims in Syria, that the Turkish military will seize back power.}

^{There is a very real if not immediate possibility of a civil war in Lebanon as Sunni Muslims in that nation are urged not to sit back and let Hezbollah continue to kill fellow Sunnis in Syria not to mention ruling them.}

^{There is a very real and immediate possibility given the increasingly bellicose statements of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood President that he will now support its wanting to take back Hamas from the current Syrian cell that controls it and he has said to his citizens feel free to volunteer to invade Syria.}

^{The only thing I will say is I am glad the US sent in a physical presence to Jordan and will keep it there. It is needed to buffer the Russian support of Syria and send a message to Russia that it is not the only foreigner that can have a physical presence on the ground in that area.}

^{The US presence in Jordan sends a clear message the US will support both Israel and Jordan physically in the event of a spread of war and opens up another front Hezbollah must watch if it feels like going on a rampage in Lebanon or inciting a war with Israel to defocus from Syria.}

[Guest Peeves]

Link, please. The "restrictions" posed - so-called - from what I have seen are as such:

http://www.askaysun.com/about-antalya/latest-news/107-turkish-government-imposes-strict-restrictions-on-alcohol-sales-and-ads.html

So - we're talking about imposition of religious values that still leave Turkey far more liberal than Ontario, for example.

Absolute hog-wash. Certainly our liquor laws are antiquated, but your generalization is disingenuous. Our 'religious laws' are certainly more secularly constrained than those of Turkey.

Care to cite (your) examples of imposed religious values here that make Turkey so much more Liberal than Canada?