Bridal Shop Refuses Transgender Customer

[bush_cheney2004]

Now here is an interesting story from beautiful Saskatoon. Seems that a bridal shop owner is in hot water for refusing to let a (pre-operation) transgender male try on wedding dresses. You can predict what followed, including the pending HRC complaint.

Did/does the shop owner have the right to discriminate in such a way ? As a male, should I be able to shop for bras or any other form of garments traditionally associated with only females, even if it makes the female customers uncomfortable ? Let the fun begin !!

A Saskatoon woman who identifies herself as transgender says a bridal shop in the city refused to let her try on dresses as she planned her wedding.

Rohit Singh says she was looking at outfits in Jenny's Bridal Boutique but when she asked to try one on, she was refused.

Singh said she plans to file a formal complaint about her treatment with the Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/story/2013/05/02/sk-bridal-shop-transgender-130502.html

[scribblet]

Saw that on the news today. I'm guessing he/she will win because a bill has been passed on this.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/03/21/transgender-bathroom-bill-passes-with-crucial-support-of-16-tories/

I really do having a problem with men using women's bathrooms, now this could now be used as an excuse by the perverts to get in and go after kids.

[jacee]

Saw that on the news today. I'm guessing he/she will win because a bill has been passed on this.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/03/21/transgender-bathroom-bill-passes-with-crucial-support-of-16-tories/

I really do having a problem with men using women's bathrooms, now this could now be used as an excuse by the perverts to get in and go after kids.

That's silly. What ever stopped male pedophiles from dressing like women to get into washrooms? Nothing!

Why is it that some people can't get it through their heads that gay or transgender people ARE NOT PEDOPHILES!

We're talking about an adult who identifies as a woman, in a committed relationship with another adult.

Your response is not only nonsense, it's offensive.

She'll win her case. The store may have reacted without thinking it through, but they're going to have to rethink.

[bush_cheney2004]

So did the women at a client site where I used to work. My boss was a pre-operation transgender male with breast implants. She/he was 6 feet 7 inches tall and weighed about 300 lbs. In heels, she/he was almost 7 feet tall. Anyway, the women went nuts when she/he tried to use the women's rest room.

Gender discrimination is still widely practiced in many forms of public accommodation, with rest rooms being the prime example.

And I bet that if I went to a department store for a Maidenform or Bali bra fitting, I could legally be refused...even in Saskatoon.

[Guest American Woman]

Now here is an interesting story from beautiful Saskatoon. Seems that a bridal shop owner is in hot water for refusing to let a (pre-operation) transgender male....

I think perhaps it should depend on how an individual is legally recognized - as a man or a woman - and should be treated accordingly in such situations. If someone is not legally female, then I don't think they have the "rights" afforded females. So I think the key word here is "pre-operation," which leads me to believe the legal sex of the person in question is male.

[jacee]

So did the women at a client site where I used to work. My boss was a pre-operation transgender male with breast implants. She/he was 6 feet 7 inches tall and weighed about 300 lbs. In heels, she/he was almost 7 feet tall. Anyway, the women went nuts when she/he tried to use the women's rest room.

Gender discrimination is still widely practiced in many forms of public accommodation, with rest rooms being the prime example.

And I bet that if I went to a department store for a Maidenform or Bali bra fitting, I could legally be refused...even in Saskatoon.

I doubt that.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think perhaps it should depend on how an individual is legally recognized - as a man or a woman - ....

OK, but I don't know how the law can selectively discriminate based on gender. There was a famous case involving Curves gyms and banned males, as women did not want males leering at them during workouts.

Now most of these conventions ironically stem from patriarchal and sexist views, but they exist nonetheless.

[Guest American Woman]

OK, but I don't know how the law can selectively discriminate based on gender. There was a famous case involving Curves gyms and banned males, as women did not want males leering at them during workouts.

Now most of these conventions ironically stem from patriarchal and sexist views, but they exist nonetheless.

So what happened with the Curves case? And do you agree with it? I'm not familiar with it.

[scribblet]

That's silly. What ever stopped male pedophiles from dressing like women to get into washrooms? Nothing!

Why is it that some people can't get it through their heads that gay or transgender people ARE NOT PEDOPHILES!

We're talking about an adult who identifies as a woman, in a committed relationship with another adult.

Your response is not only nonsense, it's offensive.

She'll win her case. The store may have reacted without thinking it through, but they're going to have to rethink.

I didn't say they were all pedophiles, or that any of them where as a matter of fact, you are imputing words I didn't say.

I said "now this could now be used as an excuse by the perverts to get in and go after kids." What's to stop any male from dressing up as a woman under the pretense of being transexual, how do we know - we don't. Any pervert can dress up and go into the washroom now.

Personally I don't feel comfortable with men using the ladies rooms. Pre-op they still have it all, so until post-op they should use the mens.

[jacee]

I think perhaps it should depend on how an individual is legally recognized - as a man or a woman - and should be treated accordingly in such situations. If someone is not legally female, then I don't think they have the "rights" afforded females. So I think the key word here is "pre-operation," which leads me to believe the legal sex of the person in question is male.

The law varies by province in Canada.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changing_legal_gender_assignment_in_Canada

On 11 April 2012, the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario ruled that genital surgery isn't required to recognize a change in sex designation. In its decision, the Tribunal ordered that the Ontario government "shall cease requiring transgendered persons to have 'transsexual surgery' in order to obtain a change in sex designation on their registration of birth" and has 180 days to "revise the criteria for changing sex designation on a birth registration". [2][3] This makes Ontario the first jurisdiction in Canada to allow transgendered people to change the gender on their birth certificates without sex reassignment surgery.

...

The relevant legislation is the Saskatchewan Vital Statistics Act. It requires a medical certificate of completed SRS from a physician licensed in the jurisdiction where the surgery took place (or, if this cannot be obtained, other documentation as required by the director of vital statistics); a certificate signed by a second licensed physician attesting that the person was examined and found to be of the target sex; and "any other evidence the director may require." With this, the sex on a birth certificate issued in Saskatchewan may be altered. The fee is $20.

Personally, I think gender is more a state of mind than body, and there are more than two genders: It's more like a continuum.

I don't think people should have to have a 'genital check' before going into a bathroom cubicle ... or a private change cubicle.

It's nobody's business.

Edited May 4, 2013 by jacee

[Guest]

I wonder what would happen if he went for a haircut at that Muslim barber's place.

[bush_cheney2004]

So what happened with the Curves case? And do you agree with it? I'm not familiar with it.

It's a mixed bag, depending on the state where lawsuits have been filed. Men are more likely to win based on employment law. Some states have legislated exceptions for women's health clubs (but not men's ???).

http://fitbiz.tv/2011/04/are-women-only-gyms-guilty-of-discrimination/

I personally come down on the side of public vs. private accommodation to be consistent with libertarian principles / freedoms.. About ten years ago, I needed to buy a dress/skirt for a gag at work, but nobody at Kohl's would help me figure out my equivalent women's size. So I just took a pair of men's trousers that were my size and matched it to a skirt's waist size. Turn's out I was a size 14 !

[jacee]

I didn't say they were all pedophiles, or that any of them where as a matter of fact, you are imputing words I didn't say.

I said "now this could now be used as an excuse by the perverts to get in and go after kids." What's to stop any male from dressing up as a woman under the pretense of being transexual, how do we know - we don't. Any pervert can dress up and go into the washroom now.

Personally I don't feel comfortable with men using the ladies rooms. Pre-op they still have it all, so until post-op they should use the mens.

Ya? So are you going to do the genital checks?

Are we going to pay government employees to check people's genitals at all public washrooms?

Just how do you plan to implement this?

[jacee]

I wonder what would happen if he went for a haircut at that Muslim barber's place.

Well crap, we're hiring public servant genital checkers ONLY for public facilities!

Private businesses have to pay for their own inspectors so they can discriminate.

Ya, this is gonna work!

[Bonam]

Just how do you plan to implement this?

The same way that men not going into women's washrooms and vice versa in general is implemented. Hint: it doesn't require gender checkers at all washrooms.

[jacee]

The same way that men not going into women's washrooms and vice versa in general is implemented. Hint: it doesn't require gender checkers at all washrooms.

In the case of the bride, she was refused service because she looked like a man.

Who decides who looks too much like a man?

Some women have facial hair. Where do they pee?

What if they want a bridal gown?

Who has the right to discriminate because someone "looks" a different gender?

Who's going to check?

[Bonam]

In the case of the bride, she was refused service because she looked like a man.

Who decides who looks too much like a man?

Some women have facial hair. Where do they pee?

What if they want a bridal gown?

Who has the right to discriminate because someone "looks" a different gender?

Who's going to check?

Who's going to notice/care when a man goes into the women's washroom? How about the women in that washroom? Seriously, these questions don't take a rocket scientist to figure out...

[Guest American Woman]

In the case of the bride, she was refused service because she looked like a man.

Who decides who looks too much like a man?

Some women have facial hair. Where do they pee?

What if they want a bridal gown?

Who has the right to discriminate because someone "looks" a different gender?

Who's going to check?

In cases like this, the proprietor can do the "checking," and it can be done without "genital checks;" a legal ID showing gender would suffice.

[bush_cheney2004]

Women / moms can usually get a break from such strict gender based rules. I have seen single moms take their male children into the women's swimming pool locker rooms. It gets awkward as the child gets older and moms worry about sending them into the men's locker room alone. Many now just avoid the locker areas entirely by changing in the car or wearing wet suits home.

Most women are tolerant of small boys in female rest rooms when escorted by another woman. Some women tired of waiting in a long line outside the female rest room will use the men's room in a pinch.

[jacee]

In cases like this, the proprietor can do the "checking," and it can be done without "genital checks;" a legal ID showing gender would suffice.

What about public bathrooms?

Who's checking the women who 'look too much like men'?

What about the legal transgender person from Ontario whose ID says "F", but still has male genitals, making her not a legal woman in Sask.?

My questions are intended to point out the inanity of demanding proof of gender.

If a person dressed like a woman goes into a washroom cubicle, who's going to know if they have a penis?

And btw, interesting to note that another bridal shop was happy to sell a dress to the bride, regardless of 'looking like a man'.

The shop owner thought Singh was a man and said other people in the store would be uncomfortable with Singh trying on a dress, CBC News reports.

She said, Sorry we dont allow men to wear dresses here,

[GostHacked]

Private business making their own rules. It' their right to refuse anyone service for any reason.

Non-issue.

[Michael Hardner]

Private business making their own rules. It' their right to refuse anyone service for any reason.

Non-issue.

Why do you think that ? You think it's legal in Canada to put a WHITES ONLY sign on the front door of your business ? I'm amazed, if that's what you think.

The Saskatchewan Human Rights Code:

http://www.qp.gov.sk.ca/documents/English/Statutes/Statutes/S24-1.pdf

Discrimination prohibited in places to which public admitted

12(1) No person, directly or indirectly, alone or with another, or by the interposition

of another shall, on the basis of a prohibited ground:

(a) deny to any person or class of persons the accommodation, services or

facilities to which the public is customarily admitted or that are offered to the

public; or

( discriminate against any person or class of persons with respect to the

accommodation, services or facilities to which the public is customarily

admitted or that are offered to the public.

[GostHacked]

Why do you think that ? You think it's legal in Canada to put a WHITES ONLY sign on the front door of your business ? I'm amazed, if that's what you think.

Thanks for the attempt to put words into my mouth. You might have a point if there was a sign at this store saying 'no men allowed' or 'no transgenders allowed'.

You can be denied service for whatever reason the establishment says. It's private property, their rules.

As a man can I walk into an establishment that is geared towards women? Like a women's only gym? I think there are double standards in how this is applied and classified as discrimination.

[Michael Hardner]

Thanks for the attempt to put words into my mouth. You might have a point if there was a sign at this store saying 'no men allowed' or 'no transgenders allowed'.

You can be denied service for whatever reason the establishment says. It's private property, their rules.

As a man can I walk into an establishment that is geared towards women? Like a women's only gym? I think there are double standards in how this is applied and classified as discrimination.

I wasn't doing that, I was characterizing your position. Whether it's a sign or it's just an unwritten policy, it's discrimination and it's illegal.

That's what the law says.

The women's only gym issue went to the courts - I don't know what the ruling was. In any case, that's an interpretation of the law. If you read below, they allow for some discrimination, for example family discounts or seniors' discounts.

[kimmy]

Private business making their own rules. It' their right to refuse anyone service for any reason.

Non-issue.

Wrong, as MH's link indicated. There's a principle called "public accommodations" where if your place of business serves the general public, you're not allowed to exclude members of the general public for arbitrary reasons.

"He smelled horrible" is a valid reason to kick somebody out of your restaurant... "he was Jewish" isn't.

"His presence was upsetting to the other customers" is somewhat of a grey area, IMO.

OK, but I don't know how the law can selectively discriminate based on gender. There was a famous case involving Curves gyms and banned males, as women did not want males leering at them during workouts.

Now most of these conventions ironically stem from patriarchal and sexist views, but they exist nonetheless.

I think that Curves and Spa Lady can exclude men for the same reason that the Augusta Golf and Country Club and the Loyal Order of Water Buffalo can exclude women. I think that gyms are operated as private clubs rather than places of public accommodation.

-k