Bridal Shop Refuses Transgender Customer

[Bob Macadoo]

Actually I don't see the difference situationally. Why is it less acceptable that a 13 yr old boy be allowed into separate women's stalls as opposed to alone in an open urinal area with 45 yr old men?

The same laws that protect your 13 yr old son will work for your daughter.

[jacee]

We have clear way to implement.

The only person that does not understand is you.

Everyone understands that government issued ID states a sex.

That is one's sex one has until it is changed and that change is certified by a doctor.

(who presumably does 'genital checks').

If a manly women is wrongly rejected when she wants to join an all women fitness club she can show her ID.

It is no more embarrassing than a young looking 30 year old who has to show ID to buy booze.

A transvestite who 'thinks he is a woman' would not qualify.

Ahh ... legal definition. Well that's different than discriminating according to physical gender.

In Ontario, and I suspect soon in other jurisdictions, one can legally be a woman and have a penis.

After this media flap, I suspect Saskatchewan may think again about demanding castration before a woman can try on a wedding dress.

Let's cut to the chase here:

http://capone.mtsu.edu/phollowa/5sexes.html

In 1843 Levi Suydam,a twenty-three-year-old resident of Salisbury, Connecticut,asked the town board of selectmen to validate his right to vote as a Whig in a hotly contested local election. The request raised a flurry of objections from the opposition party, for reasons that must be rare in the annals of American democracy:

it was said that Suydam was more female than male and thus (some eighty years before suffrage was extended to women) could not be allowed to cast a ballot. To settle the dispute a physician,one William James Barry,was brought in to examine Suydam. And, presumably upon encountering a phallus,the good doctor declared the prospective voter male. With Suydam safely in their column the Whigs won the election by a majority of one.

Barry's diagnosis,however, turned out to be somewhat premature. Within a few days he discovered that, phallus notwithstanding, Suydam menstruated regularly and had a vaginal opening. Both his/her physique and his/her mental predispositions were more complex than was first suspected.

...

But if the state and the legal system have an interest in maintaining a two-party sexual system,they are in defiance of nature. For biologically speaking,there are many gradations running from female to male;and depending on how one calls the shots,one can argue that along that spectrum lie at least five sexes-- and perhaps even more.

For some time medical investigators have recognized the concept of the intersexual body. But the standard medical literature uses the term intersex as a catch-all for three major subgroups with some mixture of male and female characteristics ...

Is it not perhaps barbaric to demand surgical mutilation to fit society's '2 genders, M or F' obsession when nature itself defies those socially constructed 'rules' both physically and mentally?

And is it not barbaric to demand that Aunt Agnes with facial hair, Uncle Joe with breasts, Sylvia with an adam's apple or any other human being produce gender ID before they can pee or try on clothes?

Does the shop owner check all ID, or just those people who 'look different'? Who the hell checks ID for public washrooms?

The identification process itself is public humiliation and discrimination against anyone who may 'look different', many of whom would be repeatedly accosted this way.

It's ridiculous to even think of trying to do so.

'There might be a penis in the bridal shop!

There might be a vagina in the men's room!

Omg! Call the gender police!'

Edited May 13, 2013 by jacee

[Boges]

Ahh ... legal definition. Well that's different than discriminating according to physical gender.

In Ontario, and I suspect soon in other jurisdictions, one can legally be a woman and have a penis.

After this media flap, I suspect Saskatchewan may think again about demanding castration before a woman can try on a wedding dress.

Let's cut to the chase here:

http://capone.mtsu.edu/phollowa/5sexes.html

In 1843 Levi Suydam,a twenty-three-year-old resident of Salisbury, Connecticut,asked the town board of selectmen to validate his right to vote as a Whig in a hotly contested local election. The request raised a flurry of objections from the opposition party, for reasons that must be rare in the annals of American democracy:

it was said that Suydam was more female than male and thus (some eighty years before suffrage was extended to women) could not be allowed to cast a ballot. To settle the dispute a physician,one William James Barry,was brought in to examine Suydam. And, presumably upon encountering a phallus,the good doctor declared the prospective voter male. With Suydam safely in their column the Whigs won the election by a majority of one.

Barry's diagnosis,however, turned out to be somewhat premature. Within a few days he discovered that, phallus notwithstanding, Suydam menstruated regularly and had a vaginal opening. Both his/her physique and his/her mental predispositions were more complex than was first suspected.

...

But if the state and the legal system have an interest in maintaining a two-party sexual system,they are in defiance of nature. For biologically speaking,there are many gradations running from female to male;and depending on how one calls the shots,one can argue that along that spectrum lie at least five sexes-- and perhaps even more.

For some time medical investigators have recognized the concept of the intersexual body. But the standard medical literature uses the term intersex as a catch-all for three major subgroups with some mixture of male and female characteristics ...

Is it not perhaps barbaric to demand surgical mutilation to fit society's '2 genders, M or F' obsession when nature itself defies those socially constructed 'rules' both physically and mentally?

And is it not barbaric to demand that Aunt Agnes with facial hair, Uncle Joe with breasts, Sylvia with an adam's apple or any other human being produce gender ID before they can pee or try on clothes?

Does the shop owner check all ID, or just those people who 'look different'? Who the hell checks ID for public washrooms?

The identification process itself is public humiliation and discrimination against anyone who may 'look different', many of whom would be repeatedly accosted this way.

It's ridiculous to even think of trying to do so.

'There might be a penis in the bridal shop!

There might be a vagina in the men's room!

Omg! Call the gender police!'

So then Jacee, in your world, we should get rid of gender definitions all together. Men and women's bathrooms, changerooms and stores should be done away with all together. I don't see that ever happening but if you're being consistent with your views then all the power to you.

You would see a problem with a women's only gym then right? Because if you feel you're a woman, it shouldn't matter what you look like right? You can dress like a man and still feel like you're a woman just like a "real" woman can feel comfortable dressing like a man.

Unless you want someone to carry around documentation from a mental health professional that states that even though genetically you're a man, mentally you're a woman you wouldn't be able to prove, any old man is just saying they're transgendered because they're a perv.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Boges

[g_bambino]

In Ontario, and I suspect soon in other jurisdictions, one can legally be a woman and have a penis

Which is, if true, ridiculous.

The identification process itself is public humiliation and discrimination against anyone who may 'look different', many of whom would be repeatedly accosted this way

Ah. So, when a woman alerts the authorities to the presence of a person she thinks is a man in the women's washroom with her, the authorities will simply shrug and tell the woman that the individual may or may not be a man and they won't ask for any identification to prove one way or another, since that would be publicly humiliating. Gotcha.

[TimG]

Which is, if true, ridiculous.

Not if they also have a vagina. Hermaphrodites exist which is why we have sex change operations. However, not all people who ask for a sex operation can get it because the professionals sometimes decide it is psychological rather than a physiological issue. This is why it is reasonable to expect a professional to approve a legal gender change. Once that is done everyone should be expected to treat the person as the assigned gender no matter how they look.

An assertion that one 'feels like a woman' is not enough.

People that look ambiguous will often experience awkward social situations and there is nothing government can do to change that. Being asked for ID is a minor issue in comparison and has a benefit because its everyone rules to follow that are not dependent on the mind reading.

Edited May 14, 2013 by TimG

[g_bambino]

Not if they also have a vagina. Hermaphrodites exist which is why we have sex change operations.

I doubt all hermaphrodites have operations of the kind we're talking about. And, besides, does a hermaphrodite have to choose between 'M' and 'F' on their driver's licence or any other identification?

[TimG]

I doubt all hermaphrodites have operations of the kind we're talking about. And, besides, does a hermaphrodite have to choose between 'M' and 'F' on their driver's licence or any other identification?

Every birth certificate has a legal name and gender and this is what goes on drivers licenses.

People cannot change their legal name or their gender without going through a process.

Hermaphrodites could presumably ask for re-assignment as an adult but I would expect that to require medical evidence that they have ambiguous gender.

Edited May 14, 2013 by TimG

[Boges]

I doubt all hermaphrodites have operations of the kind we're talking about. And, besides, does a hermaphrodite have to choose between 'M' and 'F' on their driver's licence or any other identification?

Yeah they would identify as one sex or the other. I'm not sure if policies should be made based on the small percentage of the population that are born with both sets of reproductive organs.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Boges

[Boges]

I'd imagine if the lady in the OP looked like this, no one would have questioned him/her.

http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/Sun_Media_features_transsexual_Sunshine_Girl-13571.aspx

[guyser]

thats hilarious boges.

And did you read the end, it isnt the first time. Good on them for not caring a whit .

I recall this person, and I thought , man them some strong legs !

[Boges]

thats hilarious boges.

And did you read the end, it isnt the first time. Good on them for not caring a whit .

I recall this person, and I thought , man them some strong legs !

I get the Sun and remember this one. He/She is actually better looking than many they end up using.