Bridal Shop Refuses Transgender Customer

[jacee]

They can still ask....free speech.

Nobody has to answer. It's an invasion of privacy.

Your rights end where someone else's rights begin.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nobody has to answer. It's an invasion of privacy.

Your rights end where someone else's rights begin.

Not in a personal residence or private setting....don't answer....no sleepover !! Anybody presenting themselves as a "transgender" in transition with an expectation of variance from social/legal norms better be prepared to discuss the matter or be denied cooperation.

[cybercoma]

people have the right to feel comfortable

Nope.

[cybercoma]

It's incredible that the exact same posters on this forum still conflate the distinct concepts of sexual preference, biological sex, gender identity, and gender appearance, despite the fact that I've provided clarification on these things many times.

In regard to this topic, the idea of gender-segregated dressing rooms makes little sense as it is. Why do we even have gender segregated bathrooms too? Have you ever seen another person's genitals in a public washroom? Even as a man, standing in the open at urinals, I've never caught a glimpse of anyone else.

The kind of segregation that we have now is an absurd anachronism of a puritanical past.

Edited May 5, 2013 by cybercoma

[Guest]

In regard to this topic, the idea of gender-segregated dressing rooms makes little sense as it is. Why do we even have gender segregated bathrooms too? Have you ever seen another person's genitals in a public washroom? Even as a man, standing in the open at urinals, I've never caught a glimpse of anyone else.

I think you just weren't trying hard enough.

[cybercoma]

I think you just weren't trying hard enough.

What's your point? Does it bother you that someone might see you? It doesn't bother me and I think people are way too uptight about these things.

[jacee]

Not in a personal residence or private setting....don't answer....no sleepover !! Anybody presenting themselves as a "transgender" in transition with an expectation of variance from social/legal norms better be prepared to discuss the matter or be denied cooperation.

In your private residence - your business if you discriminate. But that isn't the issue here: That's just AW's red herring because she has no logical defense for her position.

In a business serving the public, can't discriminate, can't demand info about people's genitals.

[bush_cheney2004]

In your private residence - your business if you discriminate. But that isn't the issue here: That's just AW's red herring because she has no logical defense for her position.

No, it's a logical and obvious example of the legal and social barriers that transgender people face every day.

Businesses "discriminate" in many ways that do not violate the law.

[TimG]

What I find ironic is the same yahoos arguing that denying access to transgendered people is wrong will turn around and demand that we accommodate muslim obessions at public facilities:

http://moralcompassblog.com/2013/04/09/toronto-pools-ban-dads-after-muslims-demands/

Society is entitled to set standards. The idea that anyone should be entitled to do whatever they want whenever they want is absurd.

[Bonam]

It's incredible that the exact same posters on this forum still conflate the distinct concepts of sexual preference, biological sex, gender identity, and gender appearance, despite the fact that I've provided clarification on these things many times.

In regard to this topic, the idea of gender-segregated dressing rooms makes little sense as it is. Why do we even have gender segregated bathrooms too? Have you ever seen another person's genitals in a public washroom? Even as a man, standing in the open at urinals, I've never caught a glimpse of anyone else.

Umm, ever been in a changing room / bathroom for a public swimming pool, for example?

[cybercoma]

What I find ironic is the same yahoos arguing that denying access to transgendered people is wrong will turn around and demand that we accommodate muslim obessions at public facilities:

It's ironic that people who don't think transgendered people should be discriminated against would also think that Muslims shouldn't be discriminated against too? Shocking.

[cybercoma]

Umm, ever been in a changing room / bathroom for a public swimming pool, for example?

Is that what this thread was about? Because I swear, we were talking about someone trying on a wedding dress.

Regardless, what difference does it make? If women shared the same change rooms, would you be so out of control that you would be raping them all?

Edited May 5, 2013 by cybercoma

[Guest]

What's your point? Does it bother you that someone might see you? It doesn't bother me and I think people are way too uptight about these things.

My point is, that just because you don't sneak a peek at someone who (I assume) holds no attraction for you is no reason to dispense with gender segregated changing rooms/bathrooms. There might be those who would.

[jacee]

Even better, apparently if you don't "show your genitals" they won't even know you're a man!

Well ... how can you be absolutely certain ... certain enough to justify discriminating in a place of business?

[Bonam]

Is that what this thread was about? Because I swear, we were talking about someone trying on a wedding dress.

I was responding to your own post about how "even as a man" you had never glimpsed another's genitalia in a public washroom. So no, you weren't talking about wedding dresses.

Regardless, what difference does it make? If women shared the same change rooms, would you be so out of control that you would be raping them all?

You're one of the first people here to defend the idea of women not having to be subjected to men "leering" at them or otherwise acting inappropriately. And yet you don't think women should have the comfort of mind to not have to worry about men staring at them in public washrooms/showers/changerooms/etc?

Man, the knots you people twist your minds into with issues such as this are just unbelievable.

[bush_cheney2004]

My point is, that just because you don't sneak a peek at someone who (I assume) holds no attraction for you is no reason to dispense with gender segregated changing rooms/bathrooms. There might be those who would.

Those folks maybe should wear a burqa to the rest room ? Building codes have even started to require stall barriers between urinals to prevent peeking at your neighbour's junk !

[Guest American Woman]

You're one of the first people here to defend the idea of women not having to be subjected to men "leering" at them or otherwise acting inappropriately. And yet you don't think women should have the comfort of mind to not have to worry about men staring at them in public washrooms/showers/changerooms/etc?

Man, the knots you people twist your minds into with issues such as this are just unbelievable.

You beat me to it - some people are all over the place with their opinions. It truly is unbelievable.

I thought I was reading the post wrong when I read that cybercoma said it shouldn't make any difference if males were to share the same changing rooms as females at a public pool. This from someone who didn't think children should be subjected to Katy Perry showing cleavage on Sesame Street.

But evidently seeing a naked man in a public pool changing room should be A-ok.

[TimG]

It's ironic that people who don't think transgendered people should be discriminated against would also think that Muslims shouldn't be discriminated against too? Shocking.

So you are basically saying it is ok to ban fathers from public swimming pools unless they claim they are transgendered because being transgender trumps being muslim?

I am amazed that you cannot see the inane hypocrisy in your world view.

The fact is many people are not comfortable with transgendered people using facilities designed for a sex opposite to what they currently appear to have. This discomfort is no different from the discomfort felt by muslims when strange men watch them swimming. Why should we accomodate Muslim discomfort if everyone else is told they have to put up with transgendered? If we accommodate Muslim discomfort then why can't we tell the transgendered they have to accommodate the discomfort of the majority?

Edited May 5, 2013 by TimG

[Bryan]

It's ironic that people who don't think transgendered people should be discriminated against would also think that Muslims shouldn't be discriminated against too? Shocking.

What are you smoking?

a/ The trans person was asked to leave the bridal shop because patrons were uncomfortable with his/her presence.

b/ Men were asked to leave a public pool because patrons were uncomfortable with their presence.

Either exclusion to accommodate discomfort IS legitimate, or it's not. If b/ is acceptable, then so is a/.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Bryan

[jacee]

a/ The trans person was asked to leave the bridal shop because patrons were uncomfortable with his/her presence.

That's not quite what happened.

http://m.thespec.com/news/canada/article/929278--bridal-shop-refuses-to-let-transgender-customer-try-out-dress?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thespec.com%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2Farticle%2F929278--bridal-shop-refuses-to-let-transgender-customer-try-out-dress

She said, Oh, I dont allow men to wear dresses in my store. I explained to her that Im not a man, Im a transgender and my sex-change procedure is going on, Singh said.

She told me, It doesnt matter to me. And then she snatched that dress from my hand.

There were no complaints from patrons, just a snap decision by a clerk/storekeeper.

I suspect after the publicity and the rally, some rethinking of that decision may happen.

b/ Men were asked to leave a public pool because patrons were uncomfortable with their presence.

Either exclusion to accommodate discomfort IS legitimate, or it's not. If b/ is acceptable, then so is a/.

I have trouble with the second one simply because parents should never be excluded from supervising their minor child's activities. The father should have been told upfront, so he could enrol his child in a different class.

In fact, it should say "No viewing" clearly on the program description for the class.

Edited May 5, 2013 by jacee

[TimG]

There were no complaints from patrons, just a snap decision by a clerk/storekeeper.

So? Transgender men who still appear to be men should expect to be treated as men.

They have no right to expect people to treat them as women.

Edited May 5, 2013 by TimG

[jacee]

So? Transgender men who still appear to be men should expect to be treated as men.

They have no right to expect people to treat them as women.

Ahhh ... but a transgender man who appears more feminine is ok?

What about a woman who happens to look like a man?

I just raise these examples to demonstrate the sticky problem of ... Who gets to decide who 'appears' to look enough like a man or a woman?

On what basis are those decisions made?

Can those judgements be made accurately enough?

[Bryan]

So? Transgender men who still appear to be men should expect to be treated as men.

They have no right to expect people to treat them as women.

Even that is giving far too much consideration. Neither should have any right to be treated as the other. If they want to lie to people, that's on them.

[TimG]

a transgender man who appears more feminine is ok?

Depends. Does a third party see the man as a feminine man or woman?

What about a woman who happens to look like a man?

Such a person could produce ID that identifies herself as a woman.

Who gets to decide who 'appears' to look enough like a man or a woman?

Whoever is enforcing the rules. We live in a society with clear genders. If someone has an ambiguous genders then they they must live with the problems that come up. The onus in not on others to accommodate them.

This reminds me of the case where a transgender wanted to volunteer at a rape crisis center. The people running the facility refused because she was not born a woman. It may seem arbitrary but it is reasonable given the primary purpose of a rape crisis line is to help women in trouble.

Edited May 5, 2013 by TimG

[Bryan]

That's not quite what happened.

http://m.thespec.com/news/canada/article/929278--bridal-shop-refuses-to-let-transgender-customer-try-out-dress?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thespec.com%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2Farticle%2F929278--bridal-shop-refuses-to-let-transgender-customer-try-out-dress

She said, Oh, I dont allow men to wear dresses in my store. I explained to her that Im not a man, Im a transgender and my sex-change procedure is going on, Singh said.

She told me, It doesnt matter to me. And then she snatched that dress from my hand.

There were no complaints from patrons, just a snap decision by a clerk/storekeeper.

HIS side of the story, not credible. He already has an established pattern as a habitual liar.