Tamerlan IED - He didn't build that.

[Pliny]

Like Obama said about business. If you've got a business; you didn't build that. Can we take it the other way when responsibility is blame? Tamerlan Tsarnaev built a bomb but he had help otherwise he would never have been able to build his bomb. Someone had to manufacture those pressure cookers, someone had to build the roads and sidewalks for him to place his IED. Is this how liberals arrive at the conclusion that all of society is really to blame for this tragedy?

The line is blurred on responsibility by liberal ideology. The individual is nothing and the collective is all powerful but then when things go awry how do we correct the collective? We don't we usually look for the culprit responsible. But I suppose there are those lefties that think the individual is just a victim and is lashing out against his oppressors. Does that make it okay for individuals to act irresponsibly?

We might think, on the conspiratorial side that, it is a plot by the state to lessen or make nothing of the individual. Truly, the individual is being vilified.

Has anyone ever said to you that they don't vote because it doesn't matter who gets in because either the politicians are all crooks or liars and nothing ever changes. This is an example of how the individual has been marginalized. But also if the individual built a business then he is also marginalized by those who claim he needed society to build his business and couldn't have done it without what society provided him. It implies that society must lay claim to some of his reward - if he is rich he must pay, give back to the community.

Well, if you can lay claim to the individual's property by claiming some part of the responsibility for the creation of his wealth then you have to take the blame when the outcome is negative or disastrous. Does it make us all murderers?

In truth it is the individual that government has been given the mandate to protect against force and the collective. Special interest groups are a collective. They have replaced the individual. Barack Obama knows full well the power of the collective and he uses it. If he thinks he can't get something through he enlists a representative of a special interest to gain the sympathy of the public. He surrounds himself with union workers when he wants to bail out GM. He surrounds himself with victims of violence and organizes them to lobby for gun control bills to be passed. Obama has already succumbed to the idea that he is ineffective as an individual and that he needs groups to accomplish anything.

It's been hard to pin anything on the WH administration, from Fast and Furious to Benghazi, no one is held responsible. That their policies have any positive effect on society is most probably accidental as he strives to further the state and further bury the individual.

Think of it this way, if you are in any way an individual you probably don't appreciate big government and all they do to you, and if you are more concerned with the collective or special interests then you are probably in favour of all the government is doing for you.

I know the idea is that individuals are not aware of the damage they cause in the form of externalities regarding his environment but to say that politicians do and can run one's life better than he can is not making an informed or rational conclusion. And political agendas allied

with science makes a formidable bully. And I think that is what governments have become - bullies. All the while preaching against bullying. The individual can't stand up to this bullying but he must. Because it is individuals that are important, without them there is no collective.

[kimmy]

Oh for the love of...

You know, it seems like the Rugged Individualists have become the biggest crybabies in our society.

Tell me this: if a society where the government does nothing and everything is up to the individual is the optimum environment for the heroic Job Creator to function in, then why isn't Mogadishu the Free Enterprise Capital of the planet? Why haven't John Galt types flooded into that area to create the free market paradise that you think they could if only the government would unshackle them?

-k

[Pliny]

Oh for the love of...

You know, it seems like the Rugged Individualists have become the biggest crybabies in our society.

Tell me this: if a society where the government does nothing and everything is up to the individual is the optimum environment for the heroic Job Creator to function in, then why isn't Mogadishu the Free Enterprise Capital of the planet? Why haven't John Galt types flooded into that area to create the free market paradise that you think they could if only the government would unshackle them?

-k

They have. You are important.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Pliny

[Pliny]

I didn't intend the OP to be about individualism but more about the recognition of responsibility and how it is blurred by collective thought.

[Joe Btfsplk]

Whose responsibility is it for taking a quote out of context?

[kimmy]

They have. You are important.

hmm? Instead of trying to respond to the question, you just have some passive-aggressive quip?

I didn't intend the OP to be about individualism but more about the recognition of responsibility and how it is blurred by collective thought.

Well you prefaced that point with a bunch of WAAAHmbulance-grade whining about how the heroic Job Creator is being "marginalized", and I couldn't let that go without comment.

I believe it is patently obvious that each and every successful business in Canada, the United States, and every other modern democracy has benefited from doing business in nations that provide law and order, reliable infrastructure, legal systems and contract law, and educated work forces.

You and the other Free Market Heroes seem to think that the heroic Job Creators would be better off working in a society that didn't provide any of those things. So if this government-free paradise you envision is such a great environment to do business in, why is Mogadishu a lawless hellscape instead of a Free Enterprise Utopia?

-k

[Guest Derek L]

You and the other Free Market Heroes seem to think that the heroic Job Creators would be better off working in a society that didn't provide any of those things. So if this government-free paradise you envision is such a great environment to do business in, why is Mogadishu a lawless hellscape instead of a Free Enterprise Utopia?

-k

Anarchy and a “Free market paradise” are not one and the same…………The closest thing to a “Libertarian Utopia” (and even then so far removed) is probably Texas, when you preclude United States Federal Laws and intervention, and examine Texas Commercial Law and the lack of State Interference in businesses……..I’d liken the comparison between Somalia and Texas as this: In Somalia you need an AK-47, in Texas you can have one if you want.

Quite obviously Government does have a role to play in a stable society, but how much of a role is the question…..

[kimmy]

Yeah, low-regulation Texas, where they don't bother with job-killing regulations like inspecting fertilizer plants.

Business is BOOOOMING!!!

-k

[Guest Derek L]

Yeah, low-regulation Texas, where they don't bother with job-killing regulations like inspecting fertilizer plants.

Business is BOOOOMING!!!

-k

OSHA is an organ of United States Department of Labor.......Federal Government...........Granted the Federal Government isn't exactly popular in McLennan County

[BubberMiley]

Like Obama said about business. If you've got a business; you didn't build that.

I didn't bother to read the rest of your post because the first line was a ridiculous lie, so why bother. But the best part about the 2012 U.S. election was it showed that assuming the electorate is so stupid that they will believe anything at all is a losing strategy. It's also nice to see the conservatives haven't learned a thing from that, particularly Stephen Harper and his recent copy-cat attempts to devise fake quotations from Justin Trudeau.

I thank you for perpetuating this losing strategy on behalf of your fellow conservatives. I sincerely hope you never learn.

[kimmy]

OSHA is an organ of United States Department of Labor.......Federal Government...........Granted the Federal Government isn't exactly popular in McLennan County

OSHA isn't the only agency that could have looked into the plant (and they're badly understaffed anyway, because you can't go around spending taxpayer money on job-killing safety inspections!)

There's a Texas Department of State Health Services, a Texas Commission on Environmental Quality, and an Office of the Texas State Chemist. The Dept of State Health Services is the one that interacts directly with the plant to collect records. The Dept of State Health Services did know the plant had 270 tons of ammonium nitrate, but didn't forward that information to other agencies.

I read that Texas is the only place in America where zoning laws would let you to build a fertilizer plant right next to a school and a residential neighborhood and a nursing home.

The week after the fertilizer plant exploded, Rick Perry was touring the country telling businessmen in other states they ought to relocate to Texas because of low regulations. And one expects that after Bangladesh cracks down on factories over fire regulations and building codes, Rick will be booking a trip to Bangladesh too.

-k

[kimmy]

Think of it this way, if you are in any way an individual you probably don't appreciate big government and all they do to you, and if you are more concerned with the collective or special interests then you are probably in favour of all the government is doing for you.

I think that an individual who says they don't appreciate things like law and order, a credible legal system, functional infrastructure, and an educated society is probably a big fat liar.

-k

[Argus]

Anarchy and a “Free market paradise” are not one and the same…………The closest thing to a “Libertarian Utopia” (and even then so far removed) is probably Texas,

Clearly Bangladesh is far superior. There you can pretty much put up any building you want, make your workers do anything you desire, pay nothing, not worry about unions or safety issues, pollution or those nasty regulations. It's a libertarian paradise!

[Guest Derek L]

OSHA isn't the only agency that could have looked into the plant (and they're badly understaffed anyway, because you can't go around spending taxpayer money on job-killing safety inspections!)

There's a Texas Department of State Health Services, a Texas Commission on Environmental Quality, and an Office of the Texas State Chemist. The Dept of State Health Services is the one that interacts directly with the plant to collect records. The Dept of State Health Services did know the plant had 270 tons of ammonium nitrate, but didn't forward that information to other agencies.

I read that Texas is the only place in America where zoning laws would let you to build a fertilizer plant right next to a school and a residential neighborhood and a nursing home.

The week after the fertilizer plant exploded, Rick Perry was touring the country telling businessmen in other states they ought to relocate to Texas because of low regulations. And one expects that after Bangladesh cracks down on factories over fire regulations and building codes, Rick will be booking a trip to Bangladesh too.

-k

That only confirms my point on the libertarian & business friendly environment that is Texas………And if the fertilizer company is found negligent, those affected by the explosion, under Texas law can sue the company and if the State government is also found negligent, under the Texas Tort Claims Act, they too can be sued…………..Now try that in civilized and over regulated Canada without a judicial review….

[Guest Derek L]

Clearly Bangladesh is far superior. There you can pretty much put up any building you want, make your workers do anything you desire, pay nothing, not worry about unions or safety issues, pollution or those nasty regulations. It's a libertarian paradise!

I don't know about that...........Never been there, but their legal system shares the same foundation in English law as ours..... As such, I would imagine the avenues for civil recourse in Bangladesh are less open then in Texas.

[bush_cheney2004]

...I read that Texas is the only place in America where zoning laws would let you to build a fertilizer plant right next to a school and a residential neighborhood and a nursing home.

I doubt that.....and the fertilizer plant has existed at that site since 1962, pre-dating the school and many of the residential buildings, which were built close to the plant because the land was so cheap. Development of lots near existing industrial or commercial sites is very common in many states (and I suspect it even happens in the provinces...oh my ! ).

[kimmy]

That only confirms my point on the libertarian & business friendly environment that is Texas………And if the fertilizer company is found negligent, those affected by the explosion, under Texas law can sue the company and if the State government is also found negligent, under the Texas Tort Claims Act, they too can be sued…………..Now try that in civilized and over regulated Canada without a judicial review….

I'm not doubting that Texas is indeed a low-regulation and business-friendly environment, I'm just suggesting that Texas residents may have a new perspective about how good of a thing that is.

As for suing the fertilizer company... well, it turns out they have a grand total of $1 million of liability insurance. (you and I have more than that from ICBC.) So if and when they are successfully sued by the survivors, they're not going to pay anyway. They're just going to declare bankruptcy. The survivors won't get a cent of compensation from this company. Hopefully their own insurance coverage is adequate, because the fertilizer company's certainly isn't.

And I'd say that whatever compensation they could get from a lawsuit is a poor substitute for the lives and limbs they've lost.

-k

[Guest Derek L]

I'm not doubting that Texas is indeed a low-regulation and business-friendly environment, I'm just suggesting that Texas residents may have a new perspective about how good of a thing that is.

As for suing the fertilizer company... well, it turns out they have a grand total of $1 million of liability insurance. (you and I have more than that from ICBC.) So if and when they are successfully sued by the survivors, they're not going to pay anyway. They're just going to declare bankruptcy. The survivors won't get a cent of compensation from this company. Hopefully their own insurance coverage is adequate, because the fertilizer company's certainly isn't.

And I'd say that whatever compensation they could get from a lawsuit is a poor substitute for the lives and limbs they've lost.

-k

I highly doubt this explosion will change the manner in which business is conducted within Texas, as to the companies level of liability insurance, I don’t doubt they have very little, namely due in part to Texas commercial law and the required levels of insurance one needs to have to operate down there……oil refineries, trucking companies etc are just the same.

Now if I were the Devil’s Fertilizer plants advocate (or one representing the State), as correctly mentioned by BC, why would you build or buy a house (or other development) next to a fertilizer plant? Now maybe the families of the deceased or injured workers might have a case if it can be determined that the company was negligent in workplace safety, or that State/County Government was remiss in finding unsafe practices at the plant, but the residents surrounding the plant will likely be SOL…….It would be like buying a house at the end of a runway of an airport, then suing the airport if an airliner crashed….

[The_Squid]

It would be like buying a house at the end of a runway of an airport, then suing the airport if an airliner crashed….

.

And what law would prevent this? If the airport was negligent somehow, of course someone who lived near an airport could sue.

[Guest Derek L]

.

And what law would prevent this? If the airport was negligent somehow, of course someone who lived near an airport could sue.

In Canada, the "owner" of airports is the Federal Government........good luck with that.........In Texas, a person could sue the airport, just as they could sue a fertilizer plant.

[ReeferMadness]

That only confirms my point on the libertarian & business friendly environment that is Texas………And if the fertilizer company is found negligent, those affected by the explosion, under Texas law can sue the company and if the State government is also found negligent, under the Texas Tort Claims Act, they too can be sued…………..Now try that in civilized and over regulated Canada without a judicial review….

Yeah, I think all those dead people should just get together and file a class action suit. That would make everything better!

Some things can't be fixed.

[Guest Derek L]

Yeah, I think all those dead people should just get together and file a class action suit. That would make everything better!

Some things can't be fixed.

Are you expecting a mature response?

Clearly the family members of the deceased could attempt to sue the plant and/or the State government (over negligence), in effect allowing the individual to seek recourse against big bad corporations and the Government………

Where as in Canada, the avenues of recourse for the individual is next to nonexistent……..Case in point: Just vs. British Columbia……..An individual tried to sue the Provincial Government over negligence in upkeep of the highways after a family member was killed. The case went to both the Supreme Court of British Columbia and Canada, and both Courts rendered a decision that prevented Government from being liable for policy (or lack there of) decisions. People have successfully sued various levels of Government in Canada, but to a much lesser degree then is available to Americans.

[eyeball]

…The closest thing to a “Libertarian Utopia” (and even then so far removed) is probably Texas, when you preclude United States Federal Laws and intervention, and examine Texas Commercial Law and the lack of State Interference in businesses……..I’d liken the comparison between Somalia and Texas as this: In Somalia you need an AK-47, in Texas you can have one if you want.

Quite obviously Government does have a role to play in a stable society, but how much of a role is the question…..

Can you smoke pot if you want to in Somalia? I'm pretty sure Texas still cracks down hard and jumps all over it's citizen's backs for that.

[Guest Derek L]

Can you smoke pot if you want to in Somalia? I'm pretty sure Texas still cracks down hard and jumps all over it's citizen's backs for that.

Yeah, you probably don't want to be a reefer addict down there (Unless you play for the Cowboys)........A couple of ounces will get you 6 months and $2000 fine……….Stick to the Lone Star

Edited May 6, 2013 by Derek L

[The_Squid]

In Canada, the "owner" of airports is the Federal Government........good luck with that.........In Texas, a person could sue the airport, just as they could sue a fertilizer plant.

People sue the government and win all the time. What are you talking about?