Ontario Transit Debate

[Black Dog]

No but I'd imagine standing for 10 to 15 minutes on a crowded bus or subway car is better than driving within the city and paying to park.

To a point. A monthly metropass is already $128.50 (a one zone pass in Vancouver is $91; an unlimited MTA MetroCard for NYC is $112). Tack on an extra $5, $10 on that for transit and the cost/benefit gap starts to grow.

[Boges]

I still think it's best that TTC provides free parking to drivers at Finch station and other terminals. Go already does that. Another thing I like about the YRT is that you can use a ticket for two hours rather than having to use two tickets for a return trip to a supermarket.

I've mentioned in this thread that they might start charging to park at Go Stations. Edited May 31, 2013 by Boges

[Archanfel]

I've mentioned in this thread that they might start charging to park at Go Stations.

What?! Terrible idea. I doubt they will even break even from the lost of ridership.

[Patton74]

Can anybody tell me they believe that the price will stay at 50 billion?

Taking 25 years of construction, all the people that are pushing this will be dead or might as well be. If they manage to stay on schedule.

We have a sitting government that has a proven track record of not being able to keep their word or being able to handle a project of a tenth of the size.

We are once again dealing with estimates on the cost.

How many roads will have to be moved to appease Liberal riding's after they have started?

How many unions will have to bought off too stop a strike?

How many billions from the "revenue tools" will make its way into the general revenue?

The Liberals may have the best intentions but lack the ability to deliver and after 9 years of failures and scandals seem to be only getting worse.

I am of the mind that the liberals want out of power more than the people of this province do and are doing their very best to be forced from office so somebody else can screw this up and they can blame them.

[Fletch 27]

Indeed... Wasn't it Dalton and the Wynne team that "estimated" the immediate cancelling of the Power Gen projects would be a piddly 27-54Million? Well, its now in excess of 800M.. almost a Billion... An THAT estimation was only a year out!

This band on thieves being propped up by the NDP need to be ousted before its too late.. With the amount of sheer collusion between the 2 spend-thrifts, we are on the right track for complete bankruptcy..

Can anybody tell me they believe that the price will stay at 50 billion?

Taking 25 years of construction, all the people that are pushing this will be dead or might as well be. If they manage to stay on schedule.

We have a sitting government that has a proven track record of not being able to keep their word or being able to handle a project of a tenth of the size.

We are once again dealing with estimates on the cost.

How many roads will have to be moved to appease Liberal riding's after they have started?

How many unions will have to bought off too stop a strike?

How many billions from the "revenue tools" will make its way into the general revenue?

The Liberals may have the best intentions but lack the ability to deliver and after 9 years of failures and scandals seem to be only getting worse.

I am of the mind that the liberals want out of power more than the people of this province do and are doing their very best to be forced from office so somebody else can screw this up and they can blame them.

[Black Dog]

Can anybody tell me they believe that the price will stay at 50 billion?

Taking 25 years of construction, all the people that are pushing this will be dead or might as well be. If they manage to stay on schedule.

We have a sitting government that has a proven track record of not being able to keep their word or being able to handle a project of a tenth of the size.

We are once again dealing with estimates on the cost.

How many roads will have to be moved to appease Liberal riding's after they have started?

How many unions will have to bought off too stop a strike?

How many billions from the "revenue tools" will make its way into the general revenue?

The Liberals may have the best intentions but lack the ability to deliver and after 9 years of failures and scandals seem to be only getting worse.

I am of the mind that the liberals want out of power more than the people of this province do and are doing their very best to be forced from office so somebody else can screw this up and they can blame them.

All this may be so.

What are the opposition parties putting forward on transit? Nothing.

[Fletch 27]

Well, Hudak is wisely stating "NOT NOW" given the current state of the Global economy.. Do Ontarians need at "projected" 470 dollar an year tax?? Again, and "Estimate" from Wynne... And the Liberals have a great track record of "forecasted" expenditures..

All this may be so.

What are the opposition parties putting forward on transit? Nothing.

[Boges]

Certain Toronto lines are already planned. They just started with the Cross-town LRT. I'm assuming the Yonge Relief Line will be funded with existing resources. Ditto with the Peel region's LRT up Highway 10.

They were able to build the useless HOV lanes without using a dedicated extra gas tax or an increase to the HST. They've also doubled GO Train service along the Lakeshore line because it's ridership is saturated.

These "tools" are just excuses for the government not to be accountable for how they currently spend money. I've read that the Crosstown LRT could have been paid for with the money the Liberals flushed down the toilet canceling the Gas Plants.

Most of this 2 billion per year could have been funded by the All-Day Kindergarten thing that Don Drummond said we couldn't afford. But they went with it anyway AND they added to the cost by allowing unionized teachers take control of what amounts to a daycare position.

This government has done so many thing to waste money that giving them these tools are an obvious recipe for more indebtedness.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

Well, Hudak is wisely stating "NOT NOW" given the current state of the Global economy..

Wisely?

Certain Toronto lines are already planned. They just started with the Cross-town LRT. I'm assuming the Yonge Relief Line will be funded with existing resources. Ditto with the Peel region's LRT up Highway 10.

They were able to build the useless HOV lanes without using a dedicated extra gas tax or an increase to the HST. They've also doubled GO Train service along the Lakeshore line because it's ridership is saturated.

These "tools" are just excuses for the government not to be accountable for how they currently spend money. I've read that the Crosstown LRT could have been paid for with the money the Liberals flushed down the toilet canceling the Gas Plants.

Most of this 2 billion per year could have been funded by the All-Day Kindergarten thing that Don Drummond said we couldn't afford. But they went with it anyway AND they added to the cost by allowing unionized teachers take control of what amounts to a daycare position.

That money is gone. Is not funding transit going to bring it back?

This government has done so many thing to waste money that giving them these tools are an obvious recipe for more indebtedness.

Right better to do nothing at all. Which is exactly why we're where we are today on this.

[Boges]

That money is gone. Is not funding transit going to bring it back?

Just speaking to the point that giving this government more revenue probably won't solve these problems because they waste it like it was monopoly money.

Right better to do nothing at all. Which is exactly why we're where we are today on this.

There are tools I do support, I never said we should do nothing.

But there are tools 2 of which I've mentioned several times, that I oppose. Both of them (Gas Tax and HST hike) were in the Metrolinx proposal, where they ignored a zones fare system for the TTC, tolling of any highways and they're only proposing a modest 15% increase to development charges.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Boges

[DFCaper]

All this may be so.

What are the opposition parties putting forward on transit? Nothing.

When did Transit become a provincial responsibility? Just because TO always votes for incompent the Muncipal Governments, doesn't mean it should become the focus of the government.

Plus as stated, these Liberials are not capable of any kind of management. If the only way they can come up with 2 Billion is to raise taxes, How much do they need to raise taxes to fix their 15 Billion dollar issue... They have enough problems, they should worry about their own responsibilies before they try to take on new ones. Even if their problems are huge and created by their own incompetence.

[Black Dog]

Just speaking to the point that giving this government more revenue probably won't solve these problems because they waste it like it was monopoly money.

So why have taxes at all if the government is going to piss it away? This isn't an argument against new taxes it's an argument for more accountability.

[Boges]

So why have taxes at all if the government is going to piss it away? This isn't an argument against new taxes it's an argument for more accountability.

Well they should do the accountability thing first before they try to ram through a 25 year plan to raise our taxes significantly. Maybe small steps like the HOT lanes before HST and Gas Taxes.

Regardless, the government has a very uphill climb to get these tools put into law. Both opposition parties oppose it and the Feds won't let them hike the HST.

This is the type of change that should be a platform of an election. If the Wynne Liberals try to unilaterally implement these tools before going to the polls, it'll be truly scandalous.

Also people don't trust giving money to Metrolinx. They are the organization that implemented the Presto program, which became the most expensive program of it's kind in the world.

[guyser]

When did Transit become a provincial responsibility?

When they took all the money.

[Boges]

When they took all the money.

I think the problem is the idea of Metrolinx. It's another layer of highly paid bureaucrats doing consultation and, quite frankly, wasting money. There's already a regional transit operation and it's called GO transit.

I know Metrolinx is supposed to be an organization that brings GO and the local transit providers together but it's not doing a very good job of that.

I know that Tim Hudak wants GO to control all the GTHA transit, except maybe TTC Subway service. I think that would be a great idea.

[Patton74]

The Big Move has many flaws but the one question I have yet to find an answer to is how will this get people out of their cars?

What if you build a transit system and nobody uses it?

This giant political scandal in the making is 100% based on getting the people that drive now out of their cars and into public transit.

[Boges]

The Big Move has many flaws but the one question I have yet to find an answer to is how will this get people out of their cars?

What if you build a transit system and nobody uses it?

This giant political scandal in the making is 100% based on getting the people that drive now out of their cars and into public transit.

It's not meant to get people out of their cars. It's using drivers to fund transit projects.

I don't hear any plans to expand highways to reduce congestion. Also their plan to charge for parking at GO Stations will make people think twice about using the, already very expensive, GO Train.

[Michael Hardner]

The Big Move has many flaws but the one question I have yet to find an answer to is how will this get people out of their cars?

What if you build a transit system and nobody uses it?

This giant political scandal in the making is 100% based on getting the people that drive now out of their cars and into public transit.

If they don't expand roads, then you can guarantee they won't take their cars.

[Boges]

If they don't expand roads, then you can guarantee they won't take their cars.

That's not always true. The roads will have to get pretty bad for some to choose transit. It's very expensive and time consuming to take regional transit.

Gridlock hasn't really grown exponentially with the population because a lot of people do live where they work, or drive out of Toronto not in. or they commute at non rush-hour times.

Don't get me wrong traffic at times is bad but taxes that charge everyone in the province for everything they do and every litre of gas they buy is simply punitive. Want to effect gridlock at certain time? toll key arteries only at rush-hour. But Metrolinx isn't proposing to do that.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Boges

[guyser]

Ok folks, pick this one apart.

Still think the city(s) shouldnt get some help from the Prov/Feds/ taxpayers?

oops...link... http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/07/11/toronto-traffic-hamilton-cost_n_3582256.html

The study released by C.D. Howe Institute on Thursday suggests between $1.5 billion to $5 billion should be added to government estimates on the cost of congestion to the Greater Toronto and Hamilton area

Edited July 12, 2013 by Guyser2

[Boges]

Ok folks, pick this one apart.

Still think the city(s) shouldnt get some help from the Prov/Feds/ taxpayers?

oops...link... http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/07/11/toronto-traffic-hamilton-cost_n_3582256.html

The study released by C.D. Howe Institute on Thursday suggests between $1.5 billion to $5 billion should be added to government estimates on the cost of congestion to the Greater Toronto and Hamilton area

They want people to commute less, but when people do commute less they say it's a loss to the economy.

They've admitted the Big Move won't do too much to reduce commute times. It's goal is to make public transport more appealing. I personally fail to see how it accomplishes that outside Toronto and bordering 905 communities.

Buy does that figure take into account the drastically increased cost of commuting and doing business if the revenue tools are put into place?

[Black Dog]

They want people to commute less, but when people do commute less they say it's a loss to the economy.

They've admitted the Big Move won't do too much to reduce commute times. It's goal is to make public transport more appealing. I personally fail to see how it accomplishes that outside Toronto and bordering 905 communities.

Buy does that figure take into account the drastically increased cost of commuting and doing business if the revenue tools are put into place?

Well, that's 40 per cent of Ontario's population right there.

[Boges]

Revenue Tool advocates need to get their story straight because if this "Cost of Congestion" talking point is what they'll use now, it's doomed to fail.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/07/18/gta_congestion_and_lack_of_infrastructure_have_high_costs.html

A boutique store that would only exist if potential customers across the city could reach it would shut down if it was limited to only a small pocket of nearby customers.

Less congestion will mean you have access to a larger labour market. That will mean that you are less dependent on your current employer and can more easily switch to another job that better matches your skills.

With traffic congestion snarling Toronto, trips from many parts of the city are becoming so onerous as to prevent many of the above benefits.

Access to a wider pool of friends, jobs and entertainment opportunities in the city would be lost because getting there would take too long. The costs of not being able to take advantage of the benefits of urban living add considerably to the oft-cited estimates of the cost of congestion.

Around the world, and here in Canada, when people are surrounded by more people, their incomes increase. The evidence shows that doubling the size of the accessible labour market surrounding any Torontonian could increase that person’s income by about 4 per cent.

Do you know what else makes people less likely to go from one end of the region to another? THE BLEEPING PRICE OF GAS!!!!!

If I want to go to a Blue Jays game and come into the city, I'll do it on the weekend where traffic is rather manageable and parking costs less. If you're going to some "boutique" store on the other end of the region and you choose to do it in the morning or evening of a weekday, you're a clown and deserve to be stuck in traffic, you're the reason there's congestion.

First people advocate and urban lifestyle where people have all they need within walking distance because it's better for the environment and it's healthier. I only usually leave town to see family, friends or go to work. But NOW the talking point is that people who choose to live a more urban lifestyle because they aren't interested in contributing to congestion are costing people money. INCREDIBLE!!! If you're on the road from like 7-9am or 4-6pm for anything other than commuting to work then you're the problem.

There are still times during the week where moving across the region is very easy. GO-Train is already quite convenient but very expensive, lots of people drive because it's cheaper. Increasing the price of gas and tolling major arteries will make people less likely to commute across the region, regardless of traffic.

How will these talking head take into account the increased cost of transportation into the "cost to the region" when they jack up taxes and the price of gas?

Edited July 18, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

Revenue Tool advocates need to get their story straight because if this "Cost of Congestion" talking point is what they'll use now, it's doomed to fail.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/07/18/gta_congestion_and_lack_of_infrastructure_have_high_costs.html

Do you know what else makes people less likely to go from one end of the region to another? THE BLEEPING PRICE OF GAS!!!!!

If I want to go to a Blue Jays game and come into the city, I'll do it on the weekend where traffic is rather manageable and parking costs less. If you're going to some "boutique" store on the other end of the region and you choose to do it in the morning or evening of a weekday, you're a clown and deserve to be stuck in traffic, you're the reason there's congestion.

First people advocate and urban lifestyle where people have all they need within walking distance because it's better for the environment and it's healthier. I only leave town to see family, friends or go to work. But NOW the talking point is that people who choose to live a more urban lifestyle because they aren't interested in contributing to congestion are costing people money. INCREDIBLE!!! If you're on the road from like 7-9am or 4-6pm for anything other than commuting to work then you're the problem.

There are still times during the week where moving across the region is very easy. GO-Train is already quite convenient but very expensive, lots of people drive because it's cheaper. Increasing the price of gas and tolling major arteries will make people less likely to commute across the region, regardless of traffic.

How will these talking head take into account the increased cost of transportation into the "cost to the region" when they jack up taxes and the price of gas?

To be fair, all these different organizations (TO Board of Trade, Civic Action and now the CD Howe Institute) aren't necessarily singing from the same hymn book.

[Boges]

I know this is just a matter of tens of thousands of dollars but it's an example of why arms length government organization can't really be trusted with properly using government money.

Why are organizations like Metrolinx sponsoring private events anyway?

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/08/18/metrolinx-bureaucrats-score-premium-tickets

Bureaucrats at a provincial agency asking for billions to expand transit in the GTA had exclusive access to premium tickets to the Toronto International Film Festival and a Buffalo Bills game, the Toronto Sun has learned.

The sponsorship deals came to light because Metrolinx had trouble managing two agreements in 2011 that yielded premium tickets to the prestigious events.

The agreements forced an internal audit and policy overhaul of its own promotional program, according to documents obtained under provincial freedom of information legislation.

The reports show that $27,000 worth of NFL tickets, some of which were intended to raise money for charity, were sold to Metrolinx staff at a steeply discounted rate. The agency also forked over $30,000 of taxpayer cash to the Toronto International Film Festival (TIFF) to sponsor the event and in exchange received a bevy of free tickets to red carpet events, film screenings and exclusive parties.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Boges