RBC replaces Canadian staff with foreign workers

[Michael Hardner]

They seem to be inevitable because trade agreements can't be honestly and justly executed. If there is only one thing we're justifiably entitled to it's honest transparent governance. Virtually all of our problems stem from a lack thereof and I have say it's people with an attitude of inevitability and that there's nothing that can be done about it are probably the biggest impediments to doing anything about it. Protesting and making noise alone just doesn't cut it. The only thing that seems inevitable is violence, it's just a matter of when.

Maybe people don't take responsibility either - do you see that as a problem ?

[Canuckistani]

You're right - you didn't. It was this sentence that prompted my footnote:

"It is morally wrong to make individuals bear the costs of outsourcing or new technology."

So now that we've acknowledged that job losses can and will happen, what are some examples of acceptable losses.

They're pretty well all acceptable as long as they're legal. We can't force companies to retain people. As I said, we should emulate Sweden. It's very easy to hire and fire there, compared to say France, but the people fired are well supported, not just left for the wolves. And we need the sort of industrial strategey/cooperation that Germany has, where unions, companies and government all work together for what's best for the country. The responsiblity of the individual worker is to be adaptable. Move to where the jobs are, be willing to retrain. The responsiblity of the government is to support the worker so that the transition is as easy as possible.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Canuckistani

[Michael Hardner]

And we need the sort of industrial strategey/cooperation that Germany has, where unions, companies and government all work together for what's best for the country. The responsiblity of the individual worker is to be adaptable. Move to where the jobs are, be willing to retrain. The responsiblity of the government is to support the worker so that the transition is as easy as possible.

Yes, this all sounds reasonable but you will have a hard time getting entrenched people such as union reps, government and business to work together - but I'm intrigued. How would it happen ?

[Canuckistani]

Yes, this all sounds reasonable but you will have a hard time getting entrenched people such as union reps, government and business to work together - but I'm intrigued. How would it happen ?

Only if people get desparate enough, maybe. We just don't have the culture for it. Instead we'll go with the continued conflict model, and import large numbers of people from countries that have no sense of social solidarity outside the family to weaken our social systems even further.

[Michael Hardner]

Only if people get desparate enough, maybe. We just don't have the culture for it. Instead we'll go with the continued conflict model, and import large numbers of people from countries that have no sense of social solidarity outside the family to weaken our social systems even further.

It strikes me that it would be easier to get this done with one less player at the table.

[eyeball]

Maybe people don't take responsibility either - do you see that as a problem ?

Depends on what you're talking about. I see it as a very big problem that smaller regions are prevented from taking greater responsibility for many of the things going on within them and defer instead to Ottawa or their provincial counterparts for their management. Including things like corporate charters.

I remain convinced our problems stem from how we govern ourselves but after years of discussing that around here and what I see in the media it's patently obvious Canadians generally and governments directly, are just to stuck in the mud when it comes to any sort of meaningful reforms. The time for that is past now and change is not going to be very easy or manageable. If anything it will be completely out of the government's control - which is not necessarily a bad thing IMO.

[Canuckistani]

It strikes me that it would be easier to get this done with one less player at the table.

Which one.

[eyeball]

Get what done?

[eyeball]

It strikes me that it would be easier to get this done with one less player at the table.

That's what they said around the table when trying to allocate salmon.

[Michael Hardner]

Which one.

Without organized labour represented then you have fewer constraints, and of course government and business will act in the worker's best interests right ?

[Canuckistani]

Without organized labour represented then you have fewer constraints, and of course government and business will act in the worker's best interests right ?

Little time out for sarcasm here I guess.

[Argus]

What's the difference between replacing a Canadian worker with a computer or replacing a Canadian worker with a foreign worker? If something or someone else can do the job at lower cost, that's a good thing.

The difference is the money goes out of Canada. Instead of spending the money on something here, some efficiency, the bank will be shipping that money to India.

[Argus]

I certainly don't argue against those policies. Thanks to Canada's fair EI policies, and excellent job search systems as well as education grants I was able to realign and start moving forward again after 5 years or so in the doldrums.

Was that meant to be sarcastic?

[eyeball]

The difference is the money goes out of Canada. Instead of spending the money on something here, some efficiency, the bank will be shipping that money to India.

I thought the bank was only shipping jobs to India. The cost savings will be passed on to shareholders here as profits which will presumably trickle down to everyone else, or so I've been led to believe, but I stand to be corrected.

[Argus]

By that logic, we should never trade with foreigners because "our money goes abroad".What difference does it make if we manage to improve productivity through a robot, or finding a foreigner who will do the job at lower cost. In both cases, Canadian society overall is better off.

How is society better off? When you outsource hundreds of thousands of well-paying jobs to a foreign country you now have hundreds of thousands of people who can't support themselves, who aren't paying taxes, who have to be supported by society, and who can no longer create commercial activity like they used to. They're not buying cars and TVs, for example. Now the economic theory is those people will now find more efficient employment in something Canada does better than other nations, but the reality is they generally wind up in much lower paying jobs, again, without the same ability to create economic activity, or often, to support themselves properly.

A hundred years or so ago Ford wanted his workers to earn enough money to buy his vehicles. He helped create the middle class. Well, the workers at US auto makers now, the younger ones, in the renegotiated agreements, often can't afford to buy those cars. So the more we outsource our middle class jobs the less the population will be able to afford the goods and services these companies produce.

[Argus]

It makes no difference if someone who loses their job to a foreigner, a computer, or a change in market conditions. They lost their job. But that frees the person to do something else more valuable with their time.

Right. All those IT guys can now become barristas.

[Argus]

You guys have been moving away from the actual issue for the last ten pages. The issue is not, in this case, about outsourcing jobs to India. It's actually about bringing workers from India to Canada as 'temporary workers'. The temporary worker program is a Tory invention which basically is built to do an end run around Capitalism. Capitalism is something all business pays lip service to but really doesn't like when it works against them.

Now the way capitalism controls labour is that when there is a shortage of a particular skill set, the businesses which need that skill set will bid up the value of that skill set. Other workers will be attracted to the increased pay, and relocate/retrain. What business ought to be doing is increasing salaries, and working with colleges to get more people trained in the skills which are allegedly in short supply. But that's not what they're doing. Instead they've gone to the government and gotten permission to bring in hundreds of thousands of cheap foreign employees.

This ensure there will be no increased labour costs to them, and that other workers in Canada will not retrain or relocate to fill those job shortages. Thus the job shortages become permanent. In fact, since the government lets business pay 15% less to foreign 'temporary workers' it actually tends to drive down the value of that skill set, and so more workers move out of that area, unable to find work at a reasonable wage.

From Canada's perspective, this leads to hundreds of thousands of jobs in the hands of foreign workers who are not buying houses or cars or TVs, but putting that money away to send home. It also produces hundreds of thousands of Canadians who have no jobs, who also aren't buying houses and cars and TVs, and who have to be supported by society.

It is a dumb, short-sighted program which satisfies the craving of business for cheap, compliant labour at the expense of society at large. It is damaging to the economy because it results in less economic activity and fewer taxes. At the same time the government is offering billions to industry to train workers (which is a farce) it puts in place a program which allows them to easily just hire a foreign worker to do work cheaper than a Canadian worker.

It is just another indication of how un-conservative, and economically illiterate this government is.

[Michael Hardner]

Was that meant to be sarcastic?

Nope. I lived it, so I know.

[GostHacked]

Argus

You have raised some of the points I have in regards to the effects of temp workers or outsourcing to foreign countries. What you are talking about is a bigger picture than just a few temp workers, and I agree. I think people are in too small of a mindset when it comes to this. Possibly too much for them to process at any given time. One thing affects another, and then that affects something else and the ripple effect goes out.

[Michael Hardner]

Or they're thinking "my, these electronics are getting cheaper and cheaper" ...

[TimG]

People seem to be ignoring the fact that a large segment of the software industry in Canada is devoted to providing outsourcing services to clients in other countries. As with all questions of trade, protectionists fail to consider what would happen if other countries responded the same way that they want the Canadian government to respond.

[Michael Hardner]

People seem to be ignoring the fact that a large segment of the software industry in Canada is devoted to providing outsourcing services to clients in other countries. As with all questions of trade, protectionists fail to consider what would happen if other countries responded the same way that they want the Canadian government to respond.

There's just a negative sentiment towards trade, it seems. Your point seems lost to those who just assume Canada is too expensive.

[eyeball]

Speaking about expenses, what about the positive sentiment towards government interference in the labour market for the benefit of employers?

It's only getting easier to get pissed off at all the sycophancy on display around here.

[shortlived]

This is a bit like all the fast food restaurants in Alberta hirering temporary foreign workers so they can pay them 15% under the minimum wage Canadian workers would cost. (which accounts for 60% of temporary Skilled foreign worker applications in Alberta or something absurd like that

Personally I think businesses should be able to hire who they like, and minimum wage shouldn't exist, none the less I can understand how workers could feel upset they are being passed over for foreigners intended for "skilled workers"

when the jobs are largely unskilled. customer service requires the right personality but requires little skill.

Edited April 10, 2013 by shortlived

[eyeball]

My wife answered ads for employment, more than a few times the last year or so, for positions at a local resort and never once heard a word back. It was, of all places, the local employment office who finally told her she was wasting her time and that the ads were just a formality Ottawa required of it's Temporary Foreign Worker Program clients, for appearances sake I guess. To demonstrate that they couldn't find anyone before bringing in a busload of workers from the Philippines at 15% less than the market rate for labour.

I've had to take a cut in pay to keep working myself and now my wife is in Alberta where it appears she'll still be up against the same economic abuse that's being facilitated here in BC by the almighty fucking State. It's not a race, it's a chase to the bottom. RBC is just one of a stampede of hounds that's been unleashed against Canadians.

I really feel like taking a baseball bat to...something - not the Philipinos mind you, it's certainly not their fault.