Jump to content

Only 60 per cent of Hamilton and GTA workers have secure jobs, report


WIP

Recommended Posts

The recent sell off of some resource companies to China does not allow the fair trade to take place. There is no way Canada can invest in any Chinese company.

Which is one of the reasons why further acquisitions will be extremely difficult to do. The Nexen deal was allowed to go through because it would give the Canada an opportunity to push for reciprocity (i.e. BNS take over of a Chinese bank). Refusing to allow the deal would have guaranteed that Canadian companies would be locked out of China.

It is also difficult to retroactively change the rules. Nexen was a small enough player that it could be used to advertise changes to the rules so CEOs know in advance what deals they should avoid because of political complications.

Do you know why companies outsource? Cheap labour, lowest bidder.

Not true. If that was the case Mali would be a manufacturing hot spot. Stability, supply chain and access to educated workers matters a lot. If a country like China or Thailand can do the same work with the same quality as a Canadian worker then please explain why companies should locate in China. Edited by TimG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 77
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

The recent sell off of some resource companies to China does not allow the fair trade to take place. There is no way Canada can invest in any Chinese company.

I believe the Canadian banks are investing in China right now.

http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/en/0,,2701,00.html

Manufacturing jobs have been outsources overseas for decades simply because of cheap labour.Do you know why companies outsource? Cheap labour, lowest bidder.

That's not the same labour market, though. In a global market, of course wages have gone down, that's elementary.

We're talking about workers bidding for jobs, though. The supplier of labour (ie. the employer) does not necessarily take the lowest bidder.

Both jobs will be filled, once the position with benefits is filled, what do you think is left?

You're agreeing with my point though. The benefits job got more interest from suppliers of labour.

Most of your post seems to be arguing that manufacturing wages have been hit by competition from Asia. That's just so obvious that it's not worth debating here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which is one of the reasons why further acquisitions will be extremely difficult to do. The Nexen deal was allowed to go through because it would give the Canada an opportunity to push for reciprocity (i.e. BNS take over of a Chinese bank). Refusing to allow the deal would have guaranteed that Canadian companies would be locked out of China.

Without reciprocity, I'd say the deal is off. We need fair trade. I do believe in some level of protectionism. We are selling off this company in the hopes that reciprocity will happen? That seems really delusional to me.

Not true. If that was the case Mali would be a manufacturing hot spot.

Mail is not buying our resources to manufacture things to eventually sell a final product back to us.

Stability, supply chain and access to educated workers matters a lot. If a country like China or Thailand can do the same work with the same quality as a Canadian worker then please explain why companies should locate in China.

Mali is not a global player as far as I can tell. May lack infrastructure for said business.

If your job could be done by cheap Chinese labour, why is your job not outsources then?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We're talking about workers bidding for jobs, though. The supplier of labour (ie. the employer) does not necessarily take the lowest bidder.

The salary is set before the job is put out. Job will go to the most qualified.

You're agreeing with my point though. The benefits job got more interest from suppliers of labour.

Still only one person is going to fill that spot no matter how many applicants it gets. I would also say the ratio of those jobs compared to the contract work is low. Most IT jobs now that I am searching for are nothing but contract work. 1-2 years, no guarantee of permanent employment.

Most of your post seems to be arguing that manufacturing wages have been hit by competition from Asia. That's just so obvious that it's not worth debating here.

Yes it is obvious, and it is still a factor.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The salary is set before the job is put out. Job will go to the most qualified.

Ok - so it's not the lowest bidder.

Still only one person is going to fill that spot no matter how many applicants it gets.

What does that have to do with it ? We're talking about wages + benefits here. You said that the benefits job will be filled first, which means that they will have more interest, ie. more labour supply and more to choose from.

I would also say the ratio of those jobs compared to the contract work is low. Most IT jobs now that I am searching for are nothing but contract work. 1-2 years, no guarantee of permanent employment.

What kind of IT work ? If you're doing mainframe work, working on very large projects that can be packaged and shipped offshore then, yes, your market value is under pressure. Time to adapt.

Yes it is obvious, and it is still a factor.

Of course it's a factor - rather than complaining, or generally calling for "more fairness", what do you suggest to do about this - both as policy and as individuals ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok - so it's not the lowest bidder.What does that have to do with it ?

It was a question you raised, correct?

We're talking about wages + benefits here. You said that the benefits job will be filled first, which means that they will have more interest, ie. more labour supply and more to choose from.

What kind of IT work ? If you're doing mainframe work, working on very large projects that can be packaged and shipped offshore then, yes, your market value is under pressure. Time to adapt.Of course it's a factor - rather than complaining, or generally calling for "more fairness", what do you suggest to do about this - both as policy and as individuals ?

I did not spend 30Gs going to school just to spend another 30Gs learning another trade because my job was shipped overseas. I do some mainframe support, but most of my work involves maintaining the network and related equipment for the warehouse. On site support is needed.

Well I suggest stop shipping jobs overseas for one. The more jobs we outsource what does that mean for our overall economy? And what type of economy are we looking at if manufacturing ect are shipped out of country?

With those jobs shipped overseas, the government is actually facilitating in it's own eventual crisis. Less money gained by taxes to the government, because people are in a lower income tax bracket, providing less and less money for essential services. We have shipped our wealth out of country and can no longer adequately pay for our own government. We need to reverse that trend.

As an example, my job is shipped overseas. I now have to find another job, hopefully with the same benefits and wages I once had. But that won't be the case the majority of the time. So I find another job but I am making less money. Good thing my job was outsourced so the company I buy goods from are cheaper. So now I am in a lower tax bracket and my taxes don't contribute to the level they were before. I don't find services getting any cheaper.

Let's revisit trade deals. Get rid of things like NAFTA and other free trade agreements and get to fair trade. And if we do these agreements, let's make sure we get more out of the deal than what we are putting in.

How does one think a foreign owned NEXEN will benefit Canada? There is no immediate benefit, only the hope of having a benefit down the road. Somehow I don't think this was through through well.

But by the same token Mike, your job can be shipped overseas too. How would you adapt to that? Are you in a position to make that transition if it needed to happen?

I suggest outsourcing our government to cheap labour overseas. Maybe they will be more productive too.

Now we have government services being cut and scaled back in many areas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How does one think a foreign owned NEXEN will benefit Canada? There is no immediate benefit, only the hope of having a benefit down the road. Somehow I don't think this was through through well.

People who build businesses will eventually want to sell whether they are founders or simply angel investors. They wish to sell at the highest price. If Canada blocked all foreign takeovers it would dramatically reduce the incentive for people to invest in businesses in the first place because their ability to cash out in the future would depend on their ability to find Canadians willing to buy.

This is particularly true in the IT business which you say you depend on.

IOW - there is no doubt about why Canada benefits by allowing foreign takeovers. However, in individual circumstances a foreign takeover may not be in the best interests of Canada and Canada needs to retain the right to review such takeovers.

I suggest outsourcing our government to cheap labour overseas. Maybe they will be more productive too.

Now we have government services being cut and scaled back in many areas.

Already happening. A lot of IT work for the BC government is done in India now. Edited by TimG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was a question you raised, correct?

We were talking about how some jobs have no benefits, and some have benefits. My point was that obviously the job with benefits will be more attractive to applicants. You said something like 'only one person gets the job'. I'm trying to figure out what that means. Yes, one person, but more $/benefits means the employer gets a better applicant.

I did not spend 30Gs going to school just to spend another 30Gs learning another trade because my job was shipped overseas. I do some mainframe support, but most of my work involves maintaining the network and related equipment for the warehouse. On site support is needed.

Well, uh... you did do that. I did too. It's because these things are out of your control - you have no choice.

Well I suggest stop shipping jobs overseas for one. The more jobs we outsource what does that mean for our overall economy? And what type of economy are we looking at if manufacturing ect are shipped out of country?

The overall economy benefits in the long term - and if you don't see that then you need to just stay on that point and argue it. You can "stop shipping jobs" by ripping up trade agreements and putting up trade barriers - which is economically very risky and completely at odds with the status quo.

It's been pointed out to you how the Nexen sale could benefit Canada, but you're just against globalized trade.

You need to recognize that there are losers in such deals, and you and I are both losers in that respect - adapt or die as they say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why can't people look after their own benefits? It isn't that expensive. Around $100 a month from Blue Cross or Sun Life.

Actually it is expensive because any time you make a claim the price goes up to recover all of the money you claimed. The only time insurance prices are reasonable is when most people don't expect to claim (fire, theft or life) or when people who don't claim are forced to contribute to a pool with high claimers (i.e. mandatory employer coverage). Edited by TimG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually it is expensive because any time you make a claim the price goes up to recover all of the money you claimed. The only time insurance prices are reasonable is when most people don't expect to claim (fire, theft or life) or when people who don't claim are forced to contribute to a pool with high claimers (i.e. mandatory employer coverage).

Is that true? I had no idea, I only did a cursory search and plugged in some numbers into the online quote thingy. Hrm, if that's true then that's terrible. So if one gets private benefits and goes for a routine dental checkup their premiums will go up is what you're saying? Or would they have to claim something expensive in order to see a rise?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Or would they have to claim something expensive in order to see a rise?

Nope. Claimed a couple routine dental check ups my first year. Premiums went up accordingly. I quickly figured out that paying for it out of pocket and claiming the tax deduction makes the most financial sense.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope. Claimed a couple routine dental check ups my first year. Premiums went up accordingly. I quickly figured out that paying for it out of pocket and claiming the tax deduction makes the most financial sense.

Hrm, good to know thank you. I wonder what the hell they are taking the fees for then if they're only going to charge more for it later. Seems rather sneaky to me. Actually kind of pisses me off. I'm sure it upset you as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WIP. In your example the union worker is greedy. They are already have good wages yet they want more. Same thing happening here. Too many greedy unions who just want more and more forever. For no good reason other than to be greedy. They need to.learn that being employed at a decent wage is better then unemployment.

I knew there would be many here (on a predominantly right wing board) who sympathize with the billionaire, rather than the wage earners, that's why I posted the entire letter. The reason why that eye opening, candid response by a major capitalist caught my eye and seemed relevant to local job losses in the GTA is that the threat of withdrawing capital and closing factories and other businesses applies here as much as it does in France, Latin America, Africa or Asia.

Before you joined here, I posted a thread about that horrible sweatshop fire in Bangladesh, because soon after the tragedy, it was already apparent that the fire, the loss of life (this was actually only the worst of similar fires and workplace accidents that caused death of workers before and after that fire) were products of globalization every bit as much as the job losses in my area, Europe and the poorest countries like Bangladesh, which are accepting whatever terms the capitalists wishing to set up shop throw at them.

In the case of the Dacca fire at that sweatshop set up to supply cheap clothing to Walmart and other major retailers, employment conditions if anything, were worse than anything Dickens wrote about in his novels of capitalist excess and abuse 150 years ago in London! Workers were paid an average of 35c an hour with no paid overtime, no benefits, the factory - needless to say - had no real safety standards that were enforced, workplace injuries were common...as was sexual harassment and sex abuse of the mostly female workforce. All the local government officials cared about was reaping the benefits of having that factory there, and yet, in spite of this rock bottom pay and work standards environment, Walmart executives visiting Bangladesh and sending emails, were threatening to pull their purchase agreements and turn to new sweatshops being set up in Sri Lanka and elsewhere. That's why more than a few analysts determined that the pressure applied by Walmart to keep lowering prices (which is typical for their operations wherever their suppliers are located) was the main catalyst that led to the disaster.

The take away for me is that if your job is at risk even when you are working for 35c an hour with no health and safety conditions, then there is no bottom to the floor created by globalization, which has allowed the owners of capital to pick up and move whenever they want to threaten or leverage their workers for more concessions. So anyone who is not a wage earner, and is living off of capital may consider this system to be proper, and those who are swimming in the wake of the major capitalists, like the army of flunkies - lawyers, accountants, engineers and other professionals who they need to actually run their operations - may also prefer to benefit off the misery of those under them in the economic pecking order since it provides them higher status than the majority, but everybody else....who is a wage earner, rather than an investor or a business owner is an absolute fool if they identify their interests with the owners, rather than fellow workers. I have these sorts of arguments all the time at work, because among those of us who are part of the dying breed of unionized, well compensated workers, we have a staggering number of clueless idiots who think they have more power than what they actually have these days!

Unionized workers who receive middle class incomes are now the wealthy minority of the working class, and there are lots of people further down the pay scale in non-union jobs who despise us because we earn twice or three times what they do. And since the unions in the private sector are a dying force thanks to globalization, the time came to attack public sector unions....since government jobs aren't subject to the movements of capital directly. That's why - in case anyone hasn't noticed yet - that right wing media from the Sun to the Post to the Globe and all of the assorted and U.S.-funded right wing think tanks like the Fraser Institute, have started a strategy to take down public sector workers today....just as they did in the U.S. starting about 10 or 15 years ago. First, there would be years of non-stop onslaughts about greedy teachers, municipal and state employees (they usually have enough sense to avoid criticizing fire and police though) in the media, which was mostly ignored by both the public and remaining private sector unions, and then what do you know? Once the public impression of teachers and government workers was poisoned sufficiently, then it's time for the pigs like Chris Christie, Scott Walker, and that bald headed creep in Florida...whatever his name is, to pull the switch and enact modeled legislation disbanding their unions.

So, the final point is that those of us who are wage slaves are all in this together...whether we work in manufacturing or for the government or are working for barely minimum wage in a Tim Hortons! Globalization has put the hammer in the hands of the owners, who as you can see from that candid letter to a French Government official above, feel entitled to take almost all of the surplus income that their workers earn for them. All someone like him feels is there obligation is to leave enough behind through wages - to maintain their workers for another day of work....no different than legal slavery for that matter! And that's where all of the worshipers of capital are taking us today. Because those who are the most privileged, feel they are superior to us and entitled to all of the privileges they can leverage for themselves. Sounds like time for everyone else to educate themselves and organize against the owners, because all we have are sheer numbers - being in the majority. If we take our eye off the ball and follow the misdirections that the billionaires and their propagandists throw in front of us, we will keep sliding down hill, because we live in a new era of diminishing returns on capital, and the only way the capitalists can extract what they feel they are entitled to is to keep taking more and more from us! That is all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hrm, good to know thank you. I wonder what the hell they are taking the fees for then if they're only going to charge more for it later. Seems rather sneaky to me. Actually kind of pisses me off. I'm sure it upset you as well.

Insurance was never designed for 'stuff which we do regularly'. It is designed to protect against catastrophic losses. Any employer benefit plan that pays for 'stuff which we do regularly' is simply averaging the cost across many workers so those that don't use the services (single and childless) are getting paid less than they should so the people who use the services (with children) can have these benefits.

I am happier getting paid more and managing the cost of the benefits myself.

Edited by TimG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So instead of becoming an uneducated factory worker or Timmies employee why not push children to stay in school and go onto post secondary? Or into the trades to avoid this low wage problem.

The time of the uneducated western people being able to make a living wage are over. Stay in school and become educated. The western nations are supposed to be for the white collar people while the lower countries are to be our labour force imho.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So instead of becoming an uneducated factory worker or Timmies employee why not push children to stay in school and go onto post secondary? Or into the trades to avoid this low wage problem.

Not with the price of tuition these days. Trades are a good area to get into though.

The time of the uneducated western people being able to make a living wage are over.

Because we shipped those jobs overseas.

Stay in school and become educated. The western nations are supposed to be for the white collar people while the lower countries are to be our labour force imho.

Who can afford tuition at those prices? What do you propose about blue collar jobs? Mexicans? Edited by GostHacked
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So instead of becoming an uneducated factory worker or Timmies employee why not push children to stay in school and go onto post secondary? Or into the trades to avoid this low wage problem.

The time of the uneducated western people being able to make a living wage are over. Stay in school and become educated. The western nations are supposed to be for the white collar people while the lower countries are to be our labour force imho.

Did this make any sense while you were writing it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did this make any sense while you were writing it?

of course. If people aren't going to spend the time to get an education then they should expect to work at Tim Hortens for low wages.

If they want to make more money then give employers a reason to pay them more. Education equals more money.

The western people should be aspiring to be the white collar managers while leaving the grunt blue collar work to the other people who are not as educated. Leave the high wages for the white collar people and less money to the blue collar people who who should be just happy to have a job at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

of course. If people aren't going to spend the time to get an education then they should expect to work at Tim Hortens for low wages.

I know many educated people doing blue collar work, because that is all that they could find.

If they want to make more money then give employers a reason to pay them more. Education equals more money.

Well this is a load of bull. I went back to school for IT stuff just as the bubble was bursting in 2000-2001. Now my position is worth about 50% of what it was a decade ago.

The western people should be aspiring to be the white collar managers while leaving the grunt blue collar work to the other people who are not as educated. Leave the high wages for the white collar people and less money to the blue collar people who who should be just happy to have a job at all.

I am sensing some racism here, but I can't quite put my finger on it. But I think I 'C' it now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know many educated people doing blue collar work, because that is all that they could find.

Well this is a load of bull. I went back to school for IT stuff just as the bubble was bursting in 2000-2001. Now my position is worth about 50% of what it was a decade ago.

I am sensing some racism here, but I can't quite put my finger on it. But I think I 'C' it now.

There are tons of white collar jobs out there today. Tons.

This isn't the 1950's, education today needs to take place throughout your career to update the skills not just once.

No racism at all. This isn't about race, it's about education. The day and age of people being uneducated and expecting to have jobs for life at great wages are over. Education is very important now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I knew there would be many here (on a predominantly right wing board) who sympathize with the billionaire, rather than the wage earners, that's why I posted the entire letter. The reason why that eye opening, candid response by a major capitalist caught my eye and seemed relevant to local job losses in the GTA is that the threat of withdrawing capital and closing factories and other businesses applies here as much as it does in France, Latin America, Africa or Asia.

Before you joined here, I posted a thread about that horrible sweatshop fire in Bangladesh, because soon after the tragedy, it was already apparent that the fire, the loss of life (this was actually only the worst of similar fires and workplace accidents that caused death of workers before and after that fire) were products of globalization every bit as much as the job losses in my area, Europe and the poorest countries like Bangladesh, which are accepting whatever terms the capitalists wishing to set up shop throw at them.

In the case of the Dacca fire at that sweatshop set up to supply cheap clothing to Walmart and other major retailers, employment conditions if anything, were worse than anything Dickens wrote about in his novels of capitalist excess and abuse 150 years ago in London! Workers were paid an average of 35c an hour with no paid overtime, no benefits, the factory - needless to say - had no real safety standards that were enforced, workplace injuries were common...as was sexual harassment and sex abuse of the mostly female workforce. All the local government officials cared about was reaping the benefits of having that factory there, and yet, in spite of this rock bottom pay and work standards environment, Walmart executives visiting Bangladesh and sending emails, were threatening to pull their purchase agreements and turn to new sweatshops being set up in Sri Lanka and elsewhere. That's why more than a few analysts determined that the pressure applied by Walmart to keep lowering prices (which is typical for their operations wherever their suppliers are located) was the main catalyst that led to the disaster.

The take away for me is that if your job is at risk even when you are working for 35c an hour with no health and safety conditions, then there is no bottom to the floor created by globalization, which has allowed the owners of capital to pick up and move whenever they want to threaten or leverage their workers for more concessions. So anyone who is not a wage earner, and is living off of capital may consider this system to be proper, and those who are swimming in the wake of the major capitalists, like the army of flunkies - lawyers, accountants, engineers and other professionals who they need to actually run their operations - may also prefer to benefit off the misery of those under them in the economic pecking order since it provides them higher status than the majority, but everybody else....who is a wage earner, rather than an investor or a business owner is an absolute fool if they identify their interests with the owners, rather than fellow workers. I have these sorts of arguments all the time at work, because among those of us who are part of the dying breed of unionized, well compensated workers, we have a staggering number of clueless idiots who think they have more power than what they actually have these days!

Unionized workers who receive middle class incomes are now the wealthy minority of the working class, and there are lots of people further down the pay scale in non-union jobs who despise us because we earn twice or three times what they do. And since the unions in the private sector are a dying force thanks to globalization, the time came to attack public sector unions....since government jobs aren't subject to the movements of capital directly. That's why - in case anyone hasn't noticed yet - that right wing media from the Sun to the Post to the Globe and all of the assorted and U.S.-funded right wing think tanks like the Fraser Institute, have started a strategy to take down public sector workers today....just as they did in the U.S. starting about 10 or 15 years ago. First, there would be years of non-stop onslaughts about greedy teachers, municipal and state employees (they usually have enough sense to avoid criticizing fire and police though) in the media, which was mostly ignored by both the public and remaining private sector unions, and then what do you know? Once the public impression of teachers and government workers was poisoned sufficiently, then it's time for the pigs like Chris Christie, Scott Walker, and that bald headed creep in Florida...whatever his name is, to pull the switch and enact modeled legislation disbanding their unions.

So, the final point is that those of us who are wage slaves are all in this together...whether we work in manufacturing or for the government or are working for barely minimum wage in a Tim Hortons! Globalization has put the hammer in the hands of the owners, who as you can see from that candid letter to a French Government official above, feel entitled to take almost all of the surplus income that their workers earn for them. All someone like him feels is there obligation is to leave enough behind through wages - to maintain their workers for another day of work....no different than legal slavery for that matter! And that's where all of the worshipers of capital are taking us today. Because those who are the most privileged, feel they are superior to us and entitled to all of the privileges they can leverage for themselves. Sounds like time for everyone else to educate themselves and organize against the owners, because all we have are sheer numbers - being in the majority. If we take our eye off the ball and follow the misdirections that the billionaires and their propagandists throw in front of us, we will keep sliding down hill, because we live in a new era of diminishing returns on capital, and the only way the capitalists can extract what they feel they are entitled to is to keep taking more and more from us! That is all.

1. This is not a "predominantly right wing board" as should be obvious to anyone.

2. Everyone can and should be both a wage earner and an investor/capitalist. There's no reason to not take a portion of your wages and use them to build your own savings, which can and should be comprised of a mix of investments. This enables you to benefit from corporate profits as much as the next guy.

3. Workers, unionized or not, can and should bargain to get the best deal they can get from their employer. This works great in private industry. Less great in the government sector, where the government can cave to arbitrary demands and the cost gets passed on to the taxpayer. A responsible government should seek to deliver the services it has to deliver in the most cost-effective way possible, and paying union salaries and benefits that are far above comparable positions in the private sector does not achieve that end. There is no evil or conspiracy in pointing this out.

4. There is indeed a "bottom" created by globalization, and that bottom is rising all the time. As places like China raise their living standards, manufacturers move to less developed countries where applicable, but the list of countries which can offer rock bottom wages is rapidly declining. The developing world is indeed developing, and very rapidly, thanks to the profits of international corporations that are investing in developing nations at record levels.

5. The pace of outsourcing is already slowing as the wage differential has started to decline and the real costs of global logistics and communication barriers have become more apparent to companies.

6. Your general sense of "owners" as some kind of evil people who look down on the "masses" and think themselves better and want to oppress those below them is false. Business owners (investors/shareholders) are people just like everyone else, looking after their own best interests. Only difference is they are a bit more successful at it, and generally tend to think that such success should not be punished. There is no one to band together against, employers and employees are all interdependent, and anyone who wants to hold shares in a given company can do so and be an owner too.

Edited by Bonam
Link to comment
Share on other sites

... Sounds like time for everyone else to educate themselves and organize against the owners, because all we have are sheer numbers - being in the majority. If we take our eye off the ball and follow the misdirections that the billionaires and their propagandists throw in front of us, we will keep sliding down hill, because we live in a new era of diminishing returns on capital, and the only way the capitalists can extract what they feel they are entitled to is to keep taking more and more from us! That is all.

Sounds like a pity party for losers to me. How did "we" ever get into such a sorry situation ? The world is full of global opportunities, but only for those with the drive to compete. The rest will get the scraps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...