Apartheid? in the West Bank and Gaza

[WIP]

And I wonder how well either a "majority" Palestine or South Africa would do without Western subsidies. Or for that matter how well the real people, other than the ruling thugs, would do.

I don't know South Africa's situation today, but Palestine has been turned into something similar to those Bantustans of Apartheid-era South Africa....I said it again....so if you set up a state or a territory or whatever you want to call it, but make sure that it does not allow free movement or transportation within its borders, or control its own necessary water resources, have access to trade without having to go through a hostile foreign nation, how can you expect it to be economically viable in the first place?

[DogOnPorch]

Sure they would! They are the largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid, and that's the official aid. Thanks to the power of AIPAC and associated pro-Israel lobbies, they receive many indirect subsidies that are not given to any other nations, as well as special tax deferments set up to give Israeli exporters an advantage; U.S. military hardware sold to Israel at low cost has often been resold to third parties like China and even Iraq - during the Saddam Hussein era; so besides the direct subsidies, there are likely many more indirect subsidies of Israel that have been obscured by other labels. And I don't think Israel would be trying so hard to manipulate U.S. elections if they really were as independent as you claim.

And that was a long time ago! I was a child when the Six Day War happened, and still in high school when they had the Yom Kippur War. Those wars have been used as the justification for turning Israel into a modern day version of the ancient Greek "city of soldiers" - Sparta. The Israeli military-industrial complex is the main game in town now, and a big part of the reason why the last thing Israeli policy makers would want is for peace to break out.

I wonder why those damn Russians are so obsessed with the Great Patriotic Wa...errrr....WW2?

[

Edited January 31, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

...heh...pretty awesome, eh?

[WIP]

I wonder why those damn Russians are so obsessed with the Great Patriotic Wa...errrr....WW2?

Why do you think? Not that it has anything to do with the topic, but Russians lost more soldiers and civilians in WWII than anyone else, and they recovered national prestige lost by the disasters of WWI and a retreat that Lenin had no choice on even if he wanted to fight a war with Germany. As for today: where does Russia rank compared to the U.S. in military spending? According to a recent factoid, the U.S. spends more than the next 13 nations combined, who are either allies or neutral parties, not direct threats to the U.S.. So what is the purpose of all that spending which will soon bankrupt the U.S.?

[bush_cheney2004]

. So what is the purpose of all that spending which will soon bankrupt the U.S.?

To give Canadians jobs and a fine selection of military aircraft to choose from.

[BC_chick]

They can't give the land back because they need it for security. They can't have Arabs living so close to their major population centers. Somehow having settlers on that land with the military protecting them will keep Israel safer. Those aren't settlers, they're security guards.

This is my understanding of JGB's argument. Really the only way it makes sense to me is if Israel annexes the West Bank. And then what do they do with all the Palestinians there? Let them stay and force them to take birth control? Because otherwise the Jews will be swamped by the much greater birthrate of the Arabs? Push all the Palestinians across the Jordan? Isn't that ethnic cleansing? I admit, I don't get it.

I think the bolded part was the plan, except that they thought Palestinians would slowly leave on their own if living conditions were bad enough. They didn't. Instead some Israelis left when they realised the fighting is not about to stop, and the ones that stayed became more hawkish.

I'm not bashing anyone of course, that's to be expected when there is bloodshed for decades after decades.

40+ years later, you're right, there is no solution anymore. Israel will continue expansion in the name of 'security' and there will be plenty of people who will buy it up without questioning the absurdity of the argument.

Edited February 1, 2013 by BC_chick

[DogOnPorch]

Why do you think? Not that it has anything to do with the topic, but Russians lost more soldiers and civilians in WWII than anyone else, and they recovered national prestige lost by the disasters of WWI and a retreat that Lenin had no choice on even if he wanted to fight a war with Germany.

Of course.

I'd hazard that there are Israelis still alive that remember the Mufti and pals attempting their elimination. Then Nasser & crew. Then Sadat and Assad. Now Hamas and Hezbollah + backers. There was a desperate point in the Yom Kippur War where WW2-era Shermans were up against top shelf Soviet armor in the largest tank battles since Kursk.

Folks in Winnipeg (et al) have never had a war run across them both ways. We just don't understand the reality.

As for today: where does Russia rank compared to the U.S. in military spending? According to a recent factoid, the U.S. spends more than the next 13 nations combined, who are either allies or neutral parties, not direct threats to the U.S.. So what is the purpose of all that spending which will soon bankrupt the U.S.?

The US is expected to be world cop. Don't pretend it isn't.

Russia would love to be able to reclaim true superpower status. Don't pretend it wouldn't.

[jbg]

Push all the Palestinians across the Jordan? Isn't that ethnic cleansing? I admit, I don't get it.

As I keep on repeating maybe that possibility should have occurred to the Arabs when they made war on Israel. What do you think the Arabs would do to the Jews if they conquer Israel?

[WIP]

Of course.

I'd hazard that there are Israelis still alive that remember the Mufti and pals attempting their elimination. Then Nasser & crew. Then Sadat and Assad. Now Hamas and Hezbollah + backers. There was a desperate point in the Yom Kippur War where WW2-era Shermans were up against top shelf Soviet armor in the largest tank battles since Kursk.

Folks in Winnipeg (et al) have never had a war run across them both ways. We just don't understand the reality.

Your warped version of history ignores the fact that the Arabs living in Palestine had legitimate objections:

such as huge tracts of land purchased by zionists were bought from absentee landlords of the old Ottoman Empire who often didn't have legitimate title to the land that they sold

Jews arriving in Palestine were European...bringing European culture and attitudes, that weren't welcomed by the locals. In some cities like Jerusalem, there had already been a Jewish community living there for centuries, who were tolerated....otherwise they would not have been there....until more and more Jews arrived, bringing in numbers that indicated they would take over by mass migration.

The US is expected to be world cop. Don't pretend it isn't.

Don't pretend this "world cop" motif is legitimate. It's plain bullshit! The U.S. isn't playing policeman trying to keep world peace; the U.S. is using its military to enforce banking and commerce policies, as well as setting up proxies to act on America's behalf: in South America, Columbia is the primary U.S. enforcer. Using the excuse of fighting against Columbian revolutionaries, Columbia has sent troops across its borders into Ecuador and Venezuela several times over the last 10 years, using money and armaments supplied by the U.S. for their War on Drugs.

In Africa, U.S. commercial interests have risen in priorty, leading to the creation of AFRICOM, and setting up the oil-funded government in Nigeria as their main enforcer in West Africa, with Ethiopia, Uganda, and to a lesser extent - Rwanda, being used as proxies to invade Eritrea, Somalia, Kenya, the Congo...and I'm sure there are other examples where the U.S. uses its military force along with their proxy forces to back up business interests....especially the oil.

And then there's the Middle East, where the U.S. has it's allies: Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Bahrain in an increasingly desperate gambit to overthrow the Assad Government, so they can cut the chain of Shia and Shia-allied nations from Lebanon - Syria - Iraq to Iran. In case anyone has noticed of late - the U.S. has their Sunni mercenaries (the Awakening Council) reactivated and fighting with the Shia-dominated central government, committing terrorist attacks, attacking convoys of supplies and refugees traveling the highway that connects Iraq with Syria.

America's Empire of Bases

the-new-war-in-iraq-us-occupation-shifts-to-proxy-subversion

The African Union: A tool of Western rule

Russia would love to be able to reclaim true superpower status. Don't pretend it wouldn't.

And all the time I was growing up, we were led to believe that the problem with Russia and their satellite republics in the former Soviet Union was communism! So, they abandon communism, adopt Friedmanomics and they are still the enemy! Could it be that different countries are going to have their own, competing national interests regardless of what form of government they have? It's a moot point anyway.....at least until the American Empire collapses!

[DogOnPorch]

Your 'warped version of history' fails to mention the campaigns of WW1, General Allenby, Pasha Glub and Moshe Dyan. Two can play your game.

Re: US as police. Will you volunteer to be #2 al-Qaeda/Taliban/Jihad Guy and accept the red cell phone of honour? No? Other than perhaps ideology...why not?

Re: Russia

What's a seven letter word for something found in Russia? (old joke...again)

[GostHacked]

Re: US as police. Will you volunteer to be #2 al-Qaeda/Taliban/Jihad Guy and accept the red cell phone of honour? No? Other than perhaps ideology...why not?

But the USA is already supporting Al-Queda.

But GH, durrrr where are they getting the weapons from .. huuuurrrrrdurrrrrrrrr....... where da M-16s at?? L:OLOLOLOl omg .. durrrrr..

[DogOnPorch]

But the USA is already supporting Al-Queda.

But GH, durrrr where are they getting the weapons from .. huuuurrrrrdurrrrrrrrr....... where da M-16s at?? L:OLOLOLOl omg .. durrrrr..

You still seeing Stan Smith under the bed, eh? Say hello to Roger.

[Canuckistani]

As I keep on repeating maybe that possibility should have occurred to the Arabs when they made war on Israel. What do you think the Arabs would do to the Jews if they conquer Israel?

Yet this is what you advocate. I guess being God's chosen gives you special privileges to do as I say, not as I do. Or imitate your former victimizers with actions and excuses for them that are eerily similar.

[Hudson Jones]

Yet this is what you advocate. I guess being God's chosen gives you special privileges to do as I say, not as I do. Or imitate your former victimizers with actions and excuses for them that are eerily similar.

This is very true.

It's ironic to see some of the human rights abuses and degrading actions being repeated by Israel that was born after its people experienced them.

What does it mean when people say: "Never forget" ?

[DogOnPorch]

This is very true.

It's ironic to see some of the human rights abuses and degrading actions being repeated by Israel that was born after its people experienced them.

What does it mean when people say: "Never forget" ?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574400532495168894.html

[WIP]

Your 'warped version of history' fails to mention the campaigns of WW1, General Allenby, Pasha Glub and Moshe Dyan. Two can play your game.

I've mentioned at least a time or two that I'm not interested in the back and forth of who did this/who did that. If I see any argument based on the position that one nation is 100% right and the other side is 100% wrong then I can't take it seriously right from the start. The point is where are we now and if we are allowing ourselves to be drawn into the Middle East as non-critical Israeli ally, how does this benefit Canada? Or what is the end game for the conflict or Canadian participation - even if it's just at an economic and political level? I don't see any plus side for Canada by joining the Israeli lobby; just sinister motives of Harper, making sure we are right on side whatever the U.S. happens to be doing, and keeping wealthy right wing Jews in Canada happy who own so much of this Country's private media, and get those evangelical Christian zionists to work for the federal tories at the local level. So far, Harper has mostly treated social conservative issues as a third rail that he doesn't want to touch. So, agreeing with every crazy, stupid thing Netanyahu says is his way of ingratiating himself with the right wing church crowd.

Re: US as police. Will you volunteer to be #2 al-Qaeda/Taliban/Jihad Guy and accept the red cell phone of honour? No? Other than perhaps ideology...why not?

It's already been mentioned, but to elaborate as much as I can, the U.S. took one of those jihad terrorist groups - the M.E.K. off their terrorist list because they need them to try to topple the Assad Government in Syria right now. Maybe after the job is done, they'll go right back to 'the threat of Islamist terrorists' again! And, you wonder why I am cynical about all this War On Terror crap?

A superficial glossing over of the history provides no context for how things got to the state their in today. The Islamic World doesn't seem to take to economic and cultural encroachment from outsiders as well as Latin Americans for example. They put up with a lot more shit and took a lot longer to rise up against U.S.-backed puppet regimes.

Even today, as one of the primary offenders - Reagans' favourite - Ephraim Rios Montt is finally dragged before a court to answer for the genocide and ethnic cleansing in Guatemala, there are other nations in the region (like Honduras) where the U.S. deliberately set up one of their School of the America's graduates to overthrow the democratic government because they were doing things that foreign companies and landowners didn't like. This sort of policy gets a lot more blowback from the Muslim World, but the takeaway for me is that if the U.S. wasn't trying to enforce their economic conditions on these countries, they wouldn't have an Al Qaeda to deal with in the first place!

[DogOnPorch]

And, you wonder why I am cynical about all this War On Terror crap?

Heh...you want some higher purpose other than it's all just a high stakes game of Civilization? Good luck. There's the way it aught to be and then there's the way it is. Just like good ol' Sgt Barnes said. Fence sit @ your peril.

[jbg]

Your warped version of history ignores the fact that the Arabs living in Palestine had legitimate objections:

such as huge tracts of land purchased by zionists were bought from absentee landlords of the old Ottoman Empire who often didn't have legitimate title to the land that they sold

I don't know what was questionable about the title. Are you saying the tenants on this land (if indeed there were any) bought and paid for the land? I highly doubt it. The land was largely unproductive, mostly swamp and desert. The Zionist settlers drained the swamps and irrigated the desert. Of course nomadic types would want the land, now improved at the cost of others.

Jews arriving in Palestine were European...bringing European culture and attitudes, that weren't welcomed by the locals. In some cities like Jerusalem, there had already been a Jewish community living there for centuries, who were tolerated....otherwise they would not have been there....until more and more Jews arrived, bringing in numbers that indicated they would take over by mass migration.

Are you saying this was the first migration of peoples that displaced others? Surely you jest. The problem for you is that the incoming migrants were Jewish.

Don't pretend this "world cop" motif is legitimate. It's plain bullshit! The U.S. isn't playing policeman trying to keep world peace; the U.S. is using its military to enforce banking and commerce policies, as well as setting up proxies to act on America's behalf: in South America, Columbia is the primary U.S. enforcer. Using the excuse of fighting against Columbian revolutionaries, Columbia has sent troops across its borders into Ecuador and Venezuela several times over the last 10 years, using money and armaments supplied by the U.S. for their War on Drugs.

In Africa, U.S. commercial interests have risen in priorty, leading to the creation of AFRICOM, and setting up the oil-funded government in Nigeria as their main enforcer in West Africa, with Ethiopia, Uganda, and to a lesser extent - Rwanda, being used as proxies to invade Eritrea, Somalia, Kenya, the Congo...and I'm sure there are other examples where the U.S. uses its military force along with their proxy forces to back up business interests....especially the oil.

I guess anything productive or capitalist offends you. Who pays your bills or subsidizes your life style?

And then there's the Middle East, where the U.S. has it's allies: Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Bahrain in an increasingly desperate gambit to overthrow the Assad Government, so they can cut the chain of Shia and Shia-allied nations from Lebanon - Syria - Iraq to Iran. In case anyone has noticed of late - the U.S. has their Sunni mercenaries (the Awakening Council) reactivated and fighting with the Shia-dominated central government, committing terrorist attacks, attacking convoys of supplies and refugees traveling the highway that connects Iraq with Syria.

You don't think the Syrian regime is a mite bit brutal? And while we're at it, the Arab Spring hasn't worked out to well (link to related thread,Egypt & Syria Explode - Buffet of Violence, and Guess Who Kills?).

And all the time I was growing up, we were led to believe that the problem with Russia and their satellite republics in the former Soviet Union was communism! So, they abandon communism, adopt Friedmanomics and they are still the enemy! Could it be that different countries are going to have their own, competing national interests regardless of what form of government they have? It's a moot point anyway.....at least until the American Empire collapses!

Russia has embraced crony capitalism, not "Friedmanomics." Next? North Korea maybe (link)? Edited February 2, 2013 by jbg