Texas Public School Bible Classes Teach Races Come from Noah’s Sons, B

[Mighty AC]

In some places, they cannot freely hand out Bibles. Bibles had to be smuggled in....and they could get killed when caught.

Wouldn't it be nice if they just brought medicine, pumps and mosquito nets instead?

[Mighty AC]

I wouldn't say all religions bring out the best in people, but those that do have the advantage of combining tradition, ritual and even the subtle coercion of being part of the group, to motivate people towards a stronger commitment than just talking about doing good deeds.

The coercion of groups is certainly beneficial, though not limited to religious organizations. People in secular service groups give more than they would on their own. People who workout in groups make it to the gym more often and work harder while there.

I have friends that volunteer for their church. They are great people and eager to help out. Unfortunately, most of their work is simply to raise funds to cover the costs of the Church's own activities and programs. Since we are social creatures I expect people will still band together in groups as traditional religion declines. I expect many of these groups will continue to help others but without the costly overhead that comes along with traditional religions.

[Canuckistani]

Religious orgs should not be able to treat proseletysing as charity. No tax deductions and pay taxes on the funds used for it. Also church property should be taxed, same as any other.

[GostHacked]

In some places, they cannot freely hand out Bibles. Bibles had to be smuggled in....and they could get killed when caught.

Better off leaving the bibles at home and making room for more much needed supplies for the poor. The bible is not good eats no matter how it is served up. Might need more salt.

[Michael Hardner]

I was simply pointing out that I am an atheist who belongs to several charitable groups and only one has an atheist focus. People will lend a hand regardless of their belief systems.

Ok - but I would think that a belief system that demands charity of its members would cause adherents to contribute more than a belief system that doesn't.

[Mighty AC]

I think power of group coercion causes the godless, like me, to contribute more as well. Secular groups provide social contact, companionship and charity without the dangerous religious baggage.

[Michael Hardner]

I think power of group coercion causes the godless, like me, to contribute more as well. Secular groups provide social contact, companionship and charity without the dangerous religious baggage.

But - absence of religion isn't a group at all, right ? So there's no group pressure to do anything if you're just atheistic and ... uh ... group-less. So, although it's not my point it's WIPs, I think he has a point there.

EDITED TO ADD; Or she ?

[GostHacked]

Ok - but I would think that a belief system that demands charity of its members would cause adherents to contribute more than a belief system that doesn't.

But where does that charity go? Some of those fancy (and especially older) churches require a lot of upkeep.

[GostHacked]

But - absence of religion isn't a group at all, right ? So there's no group pressure to do anything if you're just atheistic and ... uh ... group-less. So, although it's not my point it's WIPs, I think he has a point there.

EDITED TO ADD; Or she ?

Just because religion does not come in to play, does not mean that there is this cohesiveness among all atheists. There are groups of people out there who simply want to help their fellow man. But sometimes there is also a benefit in helping people without inciting god all the time.

[Mighty AC]

But - absence of religion isn't a group at all, right ? So there's no group pressure to do anything if you're just atheistic and ... uh ... group-less. So, although it's not my point it's WIPs, I think he has a point there.

EDITED TO ADD; Or she ?

Groups exist without religion and groups coerce without religion. Many atheists, including myself, belong to groups that perform charitable acts. Since, the groups and charity exists without the relgion, I am not worried about the future as religious participation continues to decline.

[guyser]

Better off leaving the bibles at home and making room for more much needed supplies for the poor. The bible is not good eats no matter how it is served up. Might need more salt.

Empty calories no matter how you serve it.

[Michael Hardner]

But where does that charity go? Some of those fancy (and especially older) churches require a lot of upkeep.

Some of it goes to people who need it.

[Michael Hardner]

Groups exist without religion and groups coerce without religion. Many atheists, including myself, belong to groups that perform charitable acts. Since, the groups and charity exists without the relgion, I am not worried about the future as religious participation continues to decline.

You're not worried, but... WIP's point still seems to stand. Without group mores demanding certain behaviors, people can be less likely to perform those behaviors. Seems to be self-evident, even if it doesn`t excuse religion for their so-called `bad points`.

[Mighty AC]

All groups lean on members. The point stands if people leaving religion do not get involved in other groups; but, I don't expect that will be the case. We're social creatures and it feels good to help. Volunteerism is up in all age categories in my particular region of Ontario. I'm not sure if that holds true across Canada but I will look into it later.

[betsy]

I'm not saying non-religious organizations are not doing any help at all. The point is: Don't knock down Christian charity groups for proselytizing and handing out Bibles, since not only are they filling the physical needs of the people but they also fill the spiritual need as well - something that would give hope to these people - something which you may not even fathom to understand (because you have not seen first hand or experienced the same ordeal), and since you're secured amidst the luxurious surroundings of your materialistic environment!

That sounds so hypocritical....or so juvenile. And obviously there is some lack of deeper understanding.

If you care about these suffering people, instead of knocking down Christian Charity groups....you should encourage them all the more!

Help is help.....no matter who gives it or where it comes from. I bet that is the sentiment of those poor people suffering. They'll tell you to, "please, shut up! Get real. You're not here with us going through what we experience day in and day out. It's us who's needing all the help we can get."

[GostHacked]

I'm not saying non-religious organizations are not doing any help at all. The point is: Don't knock down Christian charity groups for proselytizing and handing out Bibles, since not only are they filling the physical needs of the people but they also fill the spiritual need as well - something that would give hope to these people - something which you may not even fathom to understand (because you have not seen first hand or experienced the same ordeal), and since you're secured amidst the luxurious surroundings of your materialistic environment!

I can bet the person Christian groups are helping would prefer another serving of food instead of a bible. Many of these people are already spiritual in their own way. If you really want to help people, leave the bibles at home and bring more much needed supplies.

[Mighty AC]

I'm not saying non-religious organizations are not doing any help at all. The point is: Don't knock down Christian charity groups for proselytizing and handing out Bibles, since not only are they filling the physical needs of the people but they also fill the spiritual need as well - something that would give hope to these people - something which you may not even fathom to understand (because you have not seen first hand or experienced the same ordeal), and since you're secured amidst the luxurious surroundings of your materialistic environment!

That sounds so hypocritical....or so juvenile. And obviously there is some lack of deeper understanding.

If you care about these suffering people, instead of knocking down Christian Charity groups....you should encourage them all the more!

I don't knock the charity work of Christian organizations, I knock the proselytizing. As a nonbeliever I don't place any value in selling religion. The people requiring charity already have belief systems that provide them with hope. Why force them to hear your message in order to receive help? It reminds me of a time share sales pitch, but instead of free tickets or discount lodgings as the lure, food and medicine are used. To me proselytizing is marketing, not charity and so I refuse to let my donations be wasted on such efforts.

Imagine if Doctors Without Borders required that all patients be taught about the evils of religion in exchange for care. Now imagine that vaccination budgets were cut in order to pay for deprogramming materials. If you can see the fault in that scenario then you should be able to understand the problem some of us have with the use of charitable funds to proselytize.

[guyser]

If you really want to help people, leave the bibles at home and bring more much needed supplies.

Like condoms....oh wait, cant do that, must have AIDS numbers grow . Good job Popester !

[Peanutbutter]

Like condoms....oh wait, cant do that, must have AIDS numbers grow . Good job Popester !

Being disrespectful of someone isn't going to help foster good, productive conversation. If a certain groups beliefs aren't to your liking you don't have to associate with them. It isn't the law here in Canada that you must be Catholic. Some Islamic countries it is the law however, all others are often tortured or killed. We should be thankful that we are fortunate enough to live in a fairly free society where we're free to believe whatever we want.

It would be better if the Catholic Church allowed t he use of condoms but it their interpretation of the scripture that makes the rules. The RCC cannot just make up whatever rules they wish, the rules they set in place must be grounded in scripture or it will not make any sense.

So again, being disrespectful and name calling isn't going to help foster good , worthwhile debate.

[guyser]

Being disrespectful of someone isn't going to help foster good, productive conversation.

Neither does being polite and cogenial.

Screw the Pope, the CC and the rest of them that have rules that put peoples lives in unneccessary danger.

AIDS could well be under control if those dickheads didnt go there and teach stupidity.

Good job Popester , ya dumb ass.

[Mighty AC]

From what I understand the RCC can make up rules. Protestants consider the Bible to be the only rule of faith but Catholics must also follow papal rules. I think the ban on contraception is more of an apostolic tradition than rule of scripture.

I agree with Guyser on this one. The RCC is doing a lot of damage on this front. Maybe the next pope will overrule the stupidity.

[guyser]

From what I understand the RCC can make up rules. Protestants consider the Bible to be the only rule of faith but Catholics must also follow papal rules. I think the ban on contraception is more of an apostolic tradition than rule of scripture.

I agree with Guyser on this one. The RCC is doing a lot of damage on this front. Maybe the next pope will overrule the stupidity.

Every religion makes up its own rules. Some are really stupid and not based in anything remotely based in reality.

Whats even funnier are the woman who worship these religions all the while being told they are second class citizens.

Hey,,,dont we have a thread about women being degraded? Maybe we could merge them?

[betsy]

I don't knock the charity work of Christian organizations, I knock the proselytizing. As a nonbeliever I don't place any value in selling religion. The people requiring charity already have belief systems that provide them with hope. Why force them to hear your message in order to receive help? It reminds me of a time share sales pitch, but instead of free tickets or discount lodgings as the lure, food and medicine are used. To me proselytizing is marketing, not charity and so I refuse to let my donations be wasted on such efforts.

Imagine if Doctors Without Borders required that all patients be taught about the evils of religion in exchange for care. Now imagine that vaccination budgets were cut in order to pay for deprogramming materials. If you can see the fault in that scenario then you should be able to understand the problem some of us have with the use of charitable funds to proselytize.

Review what you wrote.

"Evils" of religion - surely that's not the Christian religion you refer to....otherwise I'd really roll my eyes and regrettably admit that I've misjudged you and had therefore wasted time talking to you. It could only be an ignorant person indeed to think of Christianity as an "evil" religion. And someone who have not spared enough time to read, study and understand the Bible, and undoubtedly quote-mine verses from it....not to mention quote-mine the usual criticisms anyone can find on-line.

As a non-spiritual person, of course you won't understand what I say about the hope and courage that springs from having faith. Hence you've got no authority to knock down proselytizing! You knock it down to suit your own self-interest - being an anti-religion that you are! That's what makes your views about this so self-serving. And since we're talking about desperate people in other parts of the world, like Africa - when hunger/AIDS is not the only issue but also genocide and britalities from their own people - your petty comment about proselytizing and handing out of Bibles, makes you sound so out of touch with the reality those people (and the Chrisrtian Missionaries) face everyday.

Since you criticize and discredit Christian charity organizations to suit your own self-serving views, would you think it fair then if those desperate people who welcome the courage and hope that Christianity brings describe you as, "evil?"

That being said, I'm not criticizing DWB or any non-religious groups for doing their share. We also have Christian doctors doing that kind of thing.

Like I've said: help is help.

Physical needs is not the only thing that has to be met - especially when one is faced with the horrors happening in other parts of the world.

After all, man does not live by bread alone.

[guyser]

Like I've said: help is help.

Except when it kills...a la AIDS and idiot christian/Catholic teaching and charity work .

SOS for sure.

[Mighty AC]

"Evils" of religion - surely that's not the Christian religion you refer to....otherwise I'd really roll my eyes and regrettably admit that I've misjudged you and had therefore wasted time talking to you. It could only be an ignorant person indeed to think of Christianity as an "evil" religion. And someone who have not spared enough time to read, study and understand the Bible, and undoubtedly quote-mine verses from it....not to mention quote-mine the usual criticisms anyone can find on-line.

...

Since you criticize and discredit Christian charity organizations to suit your own self-serving views, would you think it fair then if those desperate people who welcome the courage and hope that Christianity brings describe you as, "evil?"

Of course Christianity is evil. Your religions was spread by the sword. It slaughtered countless heretics, church splinter groups, dissenters, atheists, agnostics, deists, pagans for hundreds of years. Have you heard of the crusades, the inquisition or witch hunts? Sure it is less homicidal now, but it's kind of like being a current member of the Nazi party.

Even today your religion is a beacon of immorality. Christianity is blatantly misogynistic, it terrorizes homosexuals, and is responsible for the suppression of knowledge, and worsening the spread of disease. This is only scratching the surface, your beliefs themselves are patently unethical. Original sin, though crimes and a god who is the prototypical dictatorial, abusive father. You people treat fear of this genocidal, megalomaniac as a positive. That's just sick. I can go on but this is likely better discussed in a separate thread.

Anyway, I am very clear on why I think Christianity is evil. I oppose the misappropriation of charitable funds to convert those in serious need of help and who already have their own belief systems. Please explain how that view is self serving or evil.