I want to offend you.

[Scotty]

There is a certain child-like entertainment to be had in simply offending people, just to giggle at how upset they get. But that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about speaking about issues, or taking positions on issues, which offend others. I'm talking about speaking your mind, your true mind, without regard to whether others are offended by it.

I think we as a society have been moving towards the position that we should never give offense to others. We've even incorporated it into law to some degree. Most workplaces have any number of rules about behavior designed to not have one party offending another party. Web sites like this have rules banning statements or opinions which might give offense. Schools certainly have such rules, especially universities. In all cases, those who offend risk being banished

Now I'm not talking about offending simply to offend. I'm not speaking about trolling, either online or in real life. There was once a triumvirate of popular topics which the three main parties NEVER discussed, because, however many Canadians were unhappy with them, the three main parties (Libs, NDP, PCs) moved in lockstep. These were bilingualism, immigration, and abortion.

Any politicians who was not fully in support in all three was labelled a dinosaur by the popular media, and had both their intelligence and value widely dismissed and derided. Such topics are also judged harshly in private life, as are innumerable others. The problem is as we move towards a society which protects delicate sensibilities from offensive words and subjects, do we not get even more delicate?

The Muslim world, for example, gets violently outraged over relatively minor insults to itself. I wonder if that is, in part, simply because they have so insulated themselves from insults over the years. If they were not so protected, would they not get used to it, much as Christians have, and shrug off such things as cartoons?

And is there not value in questioning popular assumptions and forcing people to defend them? Once again, I'm not talking about being a spiteful troublemaker, but someone who has genuine, earnest beliefs and yet cannot present them in public without fear of ridicule, abuse, anger or banishment (from friends, websites, schools or work). And where is the value in society in protecting people from merely being offended? Does this not leave any number of people in ignorance because no one is challenging their hidden and unexpressed views? Contrarily, does it not leave many people in ignorance because no one is challenging their assumptions?

[GostHacked]

Maybe it depends on the source or how the view is stated which can lead to misinterpretations of the statement, but I think that has a lot to do with emotions getting in the way of some logical thinking to counter the view or statement. When they bring emotions into it, they are throwing up some kind of wall and are resistant (sometimes with hostility) to the statement, allowing their emotions to take over in many cases making counter statements that do not make any sense to the original statement.

I have said things that I know offend people when that was never the real intention. I wanted to present some information but the other party was completely resistant to it and felt offended. It simply puts a crack into their windshield that is their worldview. When you challenge that you are going to get push back no matter what.

Great post Scotty.

[WWWTT]

The Muslim world, for example, gets violently outraged over relatively minor insults to itself. I wonder if that is, in part, simply because they have so insulated themselves from insults over the years. If they were not so protected, would they not get used to it, much as Christians have, and shrug off such things as cartoons?

I doubt there is any merit in this.

Islamic countries have very strict laws with harsh punishment.

I haven't seen anything that would suggest their intolerant behaviour is due to being sheltered from anything similar to a stand up comedian

WWWTT

[Michael Hardner]

The only real offense I have seen taken on here is when posters' opinions are evaluated as racist. People really seem to flip out and take offense when that assessment is made of their arguments, I'm not sure why.

[Scotty]

Maybe it depends on the source or how the view is stated which can lead to misinterpretations of the statement, but I think that has a lot to do with emotions getting in the way of some logical thinking to counter the view or statement

I think it is an strong emotional commitment to a belief. A person believes so strongly in it they are outraged when someone says something which contradicts them. It is so strong an emotional commitment that they are absolutely certain of the belief, and it has a moral side to it so that they believe people who disagree are somehow not just wrong but stupidly wrong and likely immoral in some way. I have seen this on abortion, and I think most of us have seen it on immigration and bilingualism.

[Scotty]

I doubt there is any merit in this.

Islamic countries have very strict laws with harsh punishment.

I haven't seen anything that would suggest their intolerant behaviour is due to being sheltered from anything similar to a stand up comedian

But why do they have strict laws with harsh punishment? Because almost no one dares call for their end? Note what happened to the few who dared call for an end to the blaspheme laws in Pakistan. Note what happens to anyone seen as attacking Islam, or insulting Islam or the prophet. Mobs attack and kill them without need of law. The riots in Islamic countries because of cartoons, or more recently because of such things as facebook postings and Utube videos indicate a populace that is so shocked by an insult that they become enraged to the point of violence.

Let me put it another way. If you found yourself naked at the office, you would be horrified, humiliated, appalled. But if you were forced to work all day naked, well, by the end of the day you'd probably have gotten used to it and would no longer be all that affected. So if there were cartoons about the prophet published every other day all around the world, it would be kind of hard for people to work up a murderous rage about any particular one. I think, in that way, it's good for us to be exposed to views which we dislike, which insult our world-view, or even insult us, so that we get used to contrary views and how to deal with them, and so we get exposed to challenging views we need to think about.

[Scotty]

The only real offense I have seen taken on here is when posters' opinions are evaluated as racist. People really seem to flip out and take offense when that assessment is made of their arguments, I'm not sure why.

Calling people racist is just insulting them. Of course people get insulted then. If you called them other names they would likely get upset too.

But you're turning things on end. Isn't it the people who shout 'racist' who are the ones getting angry and intolerant of views, and not the ones who don't want to be called names?

Edited January 14, 2013 by Scotty

[WWWTT]

Let me put it another way. If you found yourself naked at the office, you would be horrified, humiliated, appalled. But if you were forced to work all day naked, well, by the end of the day you'd probably have gotten used to it and would no longer be all that affected.

Good luck with that approach.

WWWTT

[Michael Hardner]

Calling people racist is just insulting them. Of course people get insulted then. If you called them other names they would likely get upset too.

But you're turning things on end. Isn't it the people who shout 'racist' who are the ones getting angry and intolerant of views, and not the ones who don't want to be called names?

No I don't think so. How do you describe a view that is racist in other words?

So much for enjoying being offended I guess.

[Bonam]

No I don't think so. How do you describe a view that is racist in other words?

So much for enjoying being offended I guess.

Sometimes a view really is racist and deserves to be labeled as such. But very often on these forums, people yell "racist" or "bigot" to try to shut down discussion when a statement is even very slightly politically incorrect, very far from exhibiting actual racism. This is problematic not because someone's feelings are hurt, but because it gets in the way of good debate.

[Michael Hardner]

Sometimes a view really is racist and deserves to be labeled as such. But very often on these forums, people yell "racist" or "bigot" to try to shut down discussion when a statement is even very slightly politically incorrect, very far from exhibiting actual racism. This is problematic not because someone's feelings are hurt, but because it gets in the way of good debate.

It sounds to me like it is just discussion about that point of view, but people get offended when it's pointed out for some reason.

[Guest]

I don't think I've ever been offended on a web forum.

I've never come across a racist, either. Not a real one.

[Guest American Woman]

I find it more annoying than offensive - I'm not offended by something that I know isn't true, and to me it always speaks more of the person making the claim.

[Guest]

Talking about offense. One of my favourite people has been censored for being offensive. The very trait I admire in her. Well, not the only one, but it's up there.

I don't know if anyone else has been following the transgender saga in the Observer, but her original article is linked at the end of this piece. (I thought about posting in the current thread on the issue, but never got around to it.)

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100198095/the-observers-decision-to-censor-julie-burchill-is-a-disgrace/

[Moonlight Graham]

People should be allowed to say more of whatever they want, and then we'll all grow thicker skins and won't be so offended.

One of the things that will annoy me (I definitely wouldn't say offends me) is when people say or do the same things over and over ad nauseum to the point where you want to put your head through a wall, even if those things aren't even offensive, I'd much rather be around an offensive racist than an annoying racist haha.

Saying offensive things can actually make for good comedy, ie: South Park.

[jbg]

The only real offense I have seen taken on here is when posters' opinions are evaluated as racist. People really seem to flip out and take offense when that assessment is made of their arguments, I'm not sure why.

But you often characterize my arguments as racist, don't you?

[Michael Hardner]

But you often characterize my arguments as racist, don't you?

Me ? No. And why 'but' ? If I did, it wouldn't negate my observation.

i think calling a view racist is an assessment that can be discussed but for some reason people really flip out if, for example, you show an analogy of their arguments to African Americans. That really hits a sore spot with people who spout racist views on Muslims in my experience, as we have a strong cultural tradition of equating anti-black views with psychotic rednecks.

So, people who post racist views are the most sensitive here that I have seen although I'm not sure if that is what the OP is referring to.

[GostHacked]

It sounds to me like it is just discussion about that point of view, but people get offended when it's pointed out for some reason.

We all bring emotions into these debates and that gets in the way or rational thought for a discussion. People in a sense want to be blind to other ideologies for that changes their worldview. I've misinterpreted things many times and my posts have emotions that got in the way of actually understanding what the poster was trying to put across. So I am guilty of that, without question. Since then I have learned (and still learning) to not bring emotions into it and try to read what the poster put up instead of reading what I wanted to think was posted.

[GostHacked]

People should be allowed to say more of whatever they want, and then we'll all grow thicker skins and won't be so offended.

Saying offensive things can actually make for good comedy, ie: South Park.

I am a huge fan of South Park, to me simply the best animated show out there, (in my view best show ever).

[Argus]

i think calling a view racist is an assessment that can be discussed but for some reason people really flip out if, for example, you show an analogy of their arguments to African Americans. That really hits a sore spot with people who spout racist views on Muslims in my experience, as we have a strong cultural tradition of equating anti-black views with psychotic rednecks.

So, people who post racist views are the most sensitive here that I have seen although I'm not sure if that is what the OP is referring to.

I think one of the reasons people tend to take offense is that the great majority of those who use the word, and I include you in that group, really don't know what the word means and don't care. They tend to use it in a knee-jerk way as a sort of sweeping denunciation of anything which is related to an unflattering judgement made against any group which, in Kimmy's immortal descriptive terms can be described as "brown people". This is because, in the view of the left, 'brown people' cannot be condemned for anything, because whatever they do, it's the fault of white people anyway. So they can't be held to any standards of behavior at all, and anyone who tries is being 'racist'.

[Michael Hardner]

I think one of the reasons people tend to take offense is that the great majority of those who use the word, and I include you in that group, really don't know what the word means and don't care.

Really ? You don't think I know what racist means ? The last time the discussion came up in depth, my opponents were saying that unless you're making fun of biological traits of a race it wasn't racist and I disagreed.

I think I know what it means.

They tend to use it in a knee-jerk way as a sort of sweeping denunciation of anything which is related to an unflattering judgement made against any group which, in Kimmy's immortal descriptive terms can be described as "brown people".

I don't think that that is true.

This is because, in the view of the left, 'brown people' cannot be condemned for anything, because whatever they do, it's the fault of white people anyway. So they can't be held to any standards of behavior at all, and anyone who tries is being 'racist'.

Oh, now you sound like you're OFFENDED as a white person because the left (?) thinks that brown people haven't had such a good time of it.

This thread is about OFFENDING people who are too easily offended and here you go being offended.

[Topaz]

For people who use the words "the left" can you tell me what those words mean to you? I like to know for sure before I become offended. lol.

[Michael Hardner]

For people who use the words "the left" can you tell me what those words mean to you? I like to know for sure before I become offended. lol.

It`s the same party that passed a law saying it`s illegal to protest the G8, the same party that passes laws removing the right to strike, that mismanages the economy until they go down in the polls then chimes in with arbitrary cuts - you know, the Liberals.

[GostHacked]

It`s the same party that passed a law saying it`s illegal to protest the G8, the same party that passes laws removing the right to strike, that mismanages the economy until they go down in the polls then chimes in with arbitrary cuts - you know, the Liberals.

I don't buy into the left/right ideology at all. To me it simply creates a nice divide for the government to play us off each other. While both the left and the right have incrementally brought us to this stage we still think one is better than the other depending on worldview. However both sides are participating in this systematic incremental process one cannot put the blame solely on the left or the right. The only difference is I would say is the types of increments each side has put into place.

We are in this place because of all previous governments up to this point.

[Argus]

Really ? You don't think I know what racist means ?

Clearly.

I don't think that that is true.

Unsurprising.

Oh, now you sound like you're OFFENDED as a white person because the left (?) thinks that brown people haven't had such a good time of it.

No. If I'm offended by anything it's hypocrisy. As I've said before, the Left's horror at condemnation of 'brown people' is itself blatant, paternalistic bigotry because it arises out of the assumption, even if unspoken, that brown people are incapable of any real standard of behavior, and that, regardless, they certainly can't be held to the same standards as white people - who are civilized, after all. An unprejudiced person would hold all people and peoples to the same standard, regardless of their skin pigmentation, religion or culture.

This thread is about OFFENDING people who are too easily offended and here you go being offended.

Your assumption that I am offended is, like your understanding of racism, mistaken.