US dead last in health care

[waldo]

My contention is that the U.S. is not "dead last" in health care (for several reasons).

yes clearly... that is your contention in the face of you completely ignoring... even refusing to acknowledge, all the American soured studies put forward!

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[WestCoastRunner]

It is only logical to counter the OP with direct evidence of other nations' low rankings and failing performance compared to the U.S. The OP directly engages and solicits such a comparison. For instance, I posted an OECD report that clearly ranks Canada's system lower for ER and elective surgery wait times. I have posted numerous reports of Canadians seeking and receiving health care in the U.S. when timely services were not provided or even available in their province. Lastly, I have highlighted the enormous investment that the provinces have made in measuring and reporting the wait times for treatment in direct response to domestic criticism of health care performance in Canada.

Until you unblock all members from participating in this debate, your feedback has no relevance. You are picking and choosing who you want to debate with.

[On Guard for Thee]

If you truly believe that, you should come up with some concrete info, instead of bashing canadian healthcare. Let's bring this dialogue up a notch or two. I agree that our healthcare system is in dire need of improvement, and so is the u.s. This is not a competition. I think we are all on the same page that both countries need improvements in our health care programs.

Yes indeed. But all things being equal, it's not hard to conclude that a dollar spent in a not for profit health care system will be more effective than the one spent in the for profit system. Simply because that dollar becomes less effective after you shave off the profit. And of course we all know that's the first thing that will happen to that dollar. I suspect our education system does better due to the same sort of formula.

[bush_cheney2004]

Until you unblock all members from participating in this debate, your feedback has no relevance. You are picking and choosing who you want to debate with.

False....my posts are on topic and directly challenge the OP, regardless of what blocked members post. There is no single arbiter of health care rankings, and many rankings reports are driven by partisan agendas in the U.S. and other nations.

Debate with members who are hell bent on slurs and attacks is not advised, and according to moderator's direction, such members are to be reported and/or ignored. I will not tolerate it any more.

Edited June 15, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[WestCoastRunner]

Debate with members who are hell bent on slurs and attacks is not advised, and according to moderator's direction, such members are to be reported and/or ignored. I will not tolerate it any more.

Right, got you there. We won't tolerate any such thing anymore either.

[waldo]

If you truly believe that, you should come up with some concrete info, instead of bashing canadian healthcare. Let's bring this dialogue up a notch or two. I agree that our healthcare system is in dire need of improvement, and so is the u.s. This is not a competition. I think we are all on the same page that both countries need improvements in our health care programs.

you will never get the guy to acknowledge any need for improvement in the American health care system. As clearly shown through his posts, there are degrees of being an American - not all Americans are to be considered equal... treated the same! I summarized an assortment of caveats the guy has put forward:

- any presumed failings in the American health care system are due to the freedom Americans hold to be able to abuse themselves through life-style choices... freedom!

- and, of course, "cash is king", as in if you have the cash, no problemo... those failings do not apply to your America and your subset American health system! Apparently if you have no cash, you're not an American included in the mix!

- and, perhaps the best of all, the American health care system has no expection of delivering universal care, hence, you get what you get...

- and, it's all about Commie Care... within this thread, when I previously provided actual American wait times for the largest American cities (just for appointments to see a specialist (a consult, not surgery) or a GP), highest and significant wait times were experienced in Boston. In this matter, the principal deflector called this a representation of universal "Commie Care" (as in Massachusetts Romney Care)... with no expectation of universiality in the U.S. health care systems. Err... well, at least not with degrees of respect to the state of Massachusetts and it's 7 million Americans. Oh my, as I queried, just what will Obamacare do to existing American wait lines?

[waldo]

False....my posts are on topic and directly challenge the OP, regardless of what blocked members post. There is no single arbiter of health care rankings, and many rankings reports are driven by partisan agendas in the U.S. and other nations.

no - your posts refuse to address the OP content and the particular study findings referenced. Pointedly, you refuse to discuss any of the study findings put forward within this thread. So, quite simply, you're challenging nothing! You're simply googly blustering with your googly graphic ta da throwdowns! More pointedly you're simply recycling items that have been put forward several times already earlier within the thread. Your nonsense concerning the number of Canadians traveling to the U.S. for medical care has been dispatched earlier within this thread... your nonsense concerning Canadian wait times has been exposed - you've been shown to know nothing about the workings of the Canadian wait time lists. Most pointedly you refuse, over and over and over again, to produce any manner of representative American wait times that include all categories of government and private insurance. Instead we get nothing but your blowhard best!

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Debate with members who are hell bent on slurs and attacks is not advised, and according to moderator's direction, such members are to be reported and/or ignored. I will not tolerate it any more.

.

[bush_cheney2004]

Rather than posting OP's about the state of American health care to bolster the Canadian illusion described below, perhaps more time should be spent on improving things at home:

Our health care delusion

One study ranked Canada dead last in timeliness and quality care

...It’s a Canadian conceit that ours is one of the best public health care systems in the world, a defining characteristic of nationhood; something that separates us from the Americans. In a poll by Angus Reid Public Opinion in June, 69 per cent of Canadians said they’re proud of the health care system, edging out the state of Canadian democracy, multiculturalism and bilingualism.

Yet the reality, based on any number of international comparisons, shows that pride in a supposedly world-beating standard of care is often misplaced, an “illusion,” as Liberal MP and medical doctor Keith Martin puts it. The sorry state of the nation’s emergency wards is just one indicator of trouble today and trouble to come. ERs are just “the canary in the coal mine,” says Dr. John Ross, Nova Scotia’s adviser on emergency care.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/our-health-care-delusion/

Edited June 15, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[On Guard for Thee]

Rather than posting OP's about the state of American health care to bolster the Canadian illusion described below, perhaps more time should be spent on improving things at home:

Our health care delusion

One study ranked Canada dead last in timeliness and quality care

...It’s a Canadian conceit that ours is one of the best public health care systems in the world, a defining characteristic of nationhood; something that separates us from the Americans. In a poll by Angus Reid Public Opinion in June, 69 per cent of Canadians said they’re proud of the health care system, edging out the state of Canadian democracy, multiculturalism and bilingualism.

Yet the reality, based on any number of international comparisons, shows that pride in a supposedly world-beating standard of care is often misplaced, an “illusion,” as Liberal MP and medical doctor Keith Martin puts it. The sorry state of the nation’s emergency wards is just one indicator of trouble today and trouble to come. ERs are just “the canary in the coal mine,” says Dr. John Ross, Nova Scotia’s adviser on emergency care.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/our-health-care-delusion/

You're quoting Kieth Martin from 3 years ago? Get in the game buddy.

[cybercoma]

And I don't think he has an argument, do you?

Well, no. I haven't seen any personal contribution. He has just been cutting and pasting others' words without providing any sources.

[cybercoma]

What really bothers me is that when I reposted this post, I was given a warning. I suppose it was because someone chose to ignore Waldo and I chose to respost Waldo's valuable information in this thread. I am puzzled as to why I was given a warning and why my repost was deleted. If anyone wants to weigh in on this thread, they should not ignore posters at their give and take. A thread encompasses all relevant posts dedicated to the thread. Why I was given a warning and why my re-post was deleted, I am not sure. I am quite frankly puzzled by it all. Did someone report my repost and I was quickly given a warning. It happened within an hour of my repost.

I disagree. A poster doesn't have to reply to every post in the thread. The fact that it was ignored tells us just as much, if not more than many of the replies already in the thread.

[cybercoma]

My contention is that the U.S. is not "dead last" in health care (for several reasons).

And your contention would be wrong, as shown by the studies down by American for Americans that waldo posted in this thread. The United States' healthcare system is an utter failure in terms of both cost and outcomes. You want to jump up and down that all the latest and greatest research is put into practice in the US, which isn't always true anyway, but completely ignore the fact that the vast majority of people in the United States couldn't access that care since it's prohibitively expensive. And despite the latest and greatest advances in medicine being in America, your country still has some of the worst health outcomes amongst comparable nations (the studies having previously been posted in this thread and ignored by you). So go ahead and continue to hold a completely untenable position that's not even held by the experts in your own country.

[waldo]

You're quoting Kieth Martin from 3 years ago? Get in the game buddy.

and he's simply bumping/recyling past posts of his... something that I got a suspension for! Go figure.

yes, he posted that same Macleans article previously - here: and then continued to reference it many times over in follow-up posts. He then posted the same graphic from that same Macleans article - here: and then proceeded to reference it in subsequent posts. And now he drops it again... for at least the third time in this thread. Of course, I provided a counter each time he played it... and in keeping with that, I will do so, once again: I trust I will not (again) receive another suspension:

Canada’s healthcare quality comes dead-last in global survey

no, that article presents an incorrect summation - in fact, in that 'survey', the United States is the "dead last" winner! Far be it for anyone here to expect you to check the actual study, hey? Oh wait, that's just you being consistent, right? Why would you bother confirming the study... you don't want anything to do with studies, most particularly this threads OP referenced study that shows the "dead last" winning position the United States holds in a comparative "health disadvantage" with other high income countries. The U.S., "dead last" while spending 2-to-3 times as much on healthcare as other countries reviewed!

the study/survey you incorrectly presented:

[waldo]

Rather than posting OP's about the state of American health care to bolster the Canadian illusion described below, perhaps more time should be spent on improving things at home:

you know this is not correct. You were the very first to respond to the OP of this thread as put forward by MLW member Canuckistani... his emphasis in referencing the American study (by Americans for American introspection) drew comparable reference to the significant cost for the U.S. healthcare system, while suggesting a single-payer option might provide a better return for the U.S.. In your initial post you never actually addressed the study... nor have you; nor have you addressed the several other American sourced studies put forward within this thread. Apparently, particularly when you don't like the study findings, you want nothing to do with them.

the OP has resulted in "some" critical review of the Canadian health care system... because the OP study referenced included other countries with universal type systems. As I stated not far back, that type of meaningful discussion, typically, was very short-lived in this thread... principally because you would charge in and play your favourite deflections concerning "Canadian wait times" and the "number of Canadians travelling to the U.S. for medical care". In fact, you put forward those same 2 deflections in your very first post (the second in this thread)... and each of them have been dealt with many times over in this thread.

.

[bush_cheney2004]

And your contention would be wrong, as shown by the studies down by American for Americans that waldo posted in this thread. The United States' healthcare system is an utter failure in terms of both cost and outcomes.

This point of view is not supported by the facts given independent OECD and WHO rankings, not those of partisan groups with an agenda (like The Commonwealth Fund). The U.S. certainly ranks lower than other nations, as does Canada, but it is not "dead last". The U.S. actually ranks first for several metrics, while Canada ranks first in none.

If the U.S. health care system was an utter failure, then Canadians and other nationals would not continue to avail themselves of it. Several Provinces in Canada have contracts with U.S. hospitals, clinics, and treatment centers because they are an "utter failure" ?

Edited June 15, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Smallc]

In regards to serving the entirety of the US population, yes, it is an utter failure.

[bush_cheney2004]

In regards to serving the entirety of the US population, yes, it is an utter failure.

But it is not designed to serve the "entirety of the US population". It is not a universal, single pay health care system. You and others are invoking a standard that even Canada's system does not meet.

The "lowest ranking", most expensive universal access health care system in the often listed groups of nations is....Canada.

Edited June 15, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[cybercoma]

This point of view is not supported by the facts given independent OECD and WHO rankings

Sure. Let's look at the OECD rankings amongst comparable nations: Japan, Sweden, Italy, France, Norway, Germany, Australia, UK, Canada, and USA.

Health Metrics:

United States is last in life expectancy.

United States is last in infant mortality.

United States is last in preventable deaths.

Last Place

Available Doctors and Nurses:

United States is third in physicians per capita, but still behind Canada in second place.

United States is third last in nurses per capita and well behind Canada which is in third place.

Behind Canada

Public spending:

United States has the highest public spending per capita.

United States has the highest healthcare costs as a percentage of GDP.

United States has the highest expenditures on healthcare as a percentage of government revenues.

United States pays the lowest percentage of healthcare costs.

The highest spending

So tally it up. You're dead last amongst comparable nations in health metrics, while spending the most and covering the least costs for patients.

The only question left to ask is where all this money is going? Because it's not going to improve the health outcomes of Americans and it's not going to an overabundance of doctors and nurses either.

Edited June 15, 2014 by cybercoma

[bush_cheney2004]

More examples of a province paying and sending patients to the "dead last" United States, a growing trend than belies the contention of a poorly performing American health care system:

Long waits, unavailable procedures and poor physician access are driving record numbers of Ontarians to seek treatment south of the border and sometimes overseas.

A Metroland Special Report on Cross Border Care shows:

• A 450 per cent increase in OHIP approvals for out-of-country care since the beginning of this decade, a period of explosive growth in new technologies and therapies not covered or available here. The province agreed to fund 2,110 procedures or treatments in 2001, and 11,775 last year.

• Patient demand has created a new breed of health-system navigators, known as medical brokers, who find U.S. options for the growing number of Ontario patients who elect to pay for medical services south of the border.


• Ontario’s spending on out-of-Canada medical services has tripled in the last five years. Payments in 2010 will balloon to $164.3 million, from $56.3 million in 2005. The province said in last month’s economic forecast it needs to increase health spending by $700 million to cover “higher than anticipated” OHIP costs, including services outside the province.

• Ontario has become a major contractor — a bulk buyer — of American health services this year.

• The province does not track the number of Ontarians who cross the border for care on their own, never seeking government pre-approval or reimbursement.


• Ontario continues to struggle with wait times. This month, almost 140,000 people are on wait lists just for CT scans and MRIs.

• Wait-time insurance policies have emerged as the industry caught on to public angst. While no industry figures exist to indicate the level of consumer take-up of the coverage, plans are available to reimburse costs of private treatment when policyholders are forced to wait more than 45 days.

• New technology that’s unavailable in Ontario is also an issue, especially in genetics.


• Requests by Ontario patients for funding of care across the border have more than doubled in four years.

http://www.metroland.com/page/Cross-BorderCare

Edited June 15, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

Sure. Let's look at the OECD rankings amongst comparable nations: Japan, Sweden, Italy, France, Norway, Germany, Australia, UK, Canada, and USA.

So there are only ten nations in the world ? Do they all measure infant mortality the same way ? Do they all have better access to diagnostics and certain procedures than in the U.S.? Are their cancer survival rates all better ? Do they all develop more pharma and medical device products than the U.S. ? Do medical tourists all favour these other nations over the U.S. ? Do they all have the excess capacity for services than the U.S. ? Do they all have better wait times for ER and elective surgeries ? Do many U.S. states have contracts with these nations for health care delivery ?

Edited June 15, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

....The only question left to ask is where all this money is going? Because it's not going to improve the health outcomes of Americans and it's not going to an overabundance of doctors and nurses either.

Doesn't matter to me, as I take a Libertarian view for health care:

1) Health care is not a right...not even in Canada

2) The labour choices and products of others do not belong to me or the government.

3) The government should not mandate the lifestyle choices that contribute to good/bad health

4) The government is not responsible for my health care, now a majority view in the U.S. based on Gallup polls

Edited June 15, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[cybercoma]

More examples of a province paying and sending patients to the "dead last" United States, a growing trend than belies the contention of a poorly performing American health care system

Completely irrelevant. If your system is good enough to help foreigners, then why the hell isn't it helping Americans? Why are you health metrics so terrible?

Also, you might not want to invoke "medical tourism" as an argument because I'm absolutely certain that you lose on that front too. A greater percentage of Americans seek care outside the US than Canadians seeking care outside of Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

Completely irrelevant. If your system is good enough to help foreigners, then why the hell isn't it helping Americans? Why are you health metrics so terrible?

The system will "help" anybody with the ability to pay, and many who can't. Americans are "helped" with public funding. Why do wait time suck so bad in Canada compared to other nations ?

Also, you might not want to invoke "medical tourism" as an argument because I'm absolutely certain that you lose on that front too. A greater percentage of Americans seek care outside the US than Canadians seeking care outside of Canada.

There are far more Americans than Canadians, who flee Canada's promise of "universal access"....to a wait list !

Edited June 15, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[cybercoma]

Doesn't matter to me

Clearly getting your facts straight doesn't matter either, since you said earlier that your contention is the US is not dead last in health care, bringing up OECD comparisons. Now I tell you the OECD comparisons shows the US system as an utter failure amongst comparable nations, being the most expensive and bloated system with the least return, and now you respond with some utter nonsense about how the government isn't responsible for healthcare, it's not a right, and people are free to make choices blah blah blah.

Do you know how hilarious that is when your government spends more of its revenues on healthcare than any of the other comparable nations? It spends more on healthcare as a proportion of its GDP. And it spends more on healthcare per capita than any other nation.

Healthcare might not be a right in the United States, but the US government sure as hell is spending as if it were. And, as has been pointed out time and again, getting absolutely squat in return.

[bush_cheney2004]

Do you know how hilarious that is when your government spends more of its revenues on healthcare than any of the other comparable nations? It spends more on healthcare as a proportion of its GDP. And it spends more on healthcare per capita than any other nation.

Health care is about 17% of U.S. GDP....with a 70/30 mix of private vs. public spending. Americans spend more on lots of things....any travel in Canada demonstrates that.

Healthcare might not be a right in the United States, but the US government sure as hell is spending as if it were. And, as has been pointed out time and again, getting absolutely squat in return.

Health care is not a right in Canada either, but it spends more and is the worst performing amongst similar universal access systems. Canada now spends more on wait list web sites than on tracking other basic health care metrics.