US dead last in health care

[cybercoma]

How many Americans died without care instead of going bankrupt? Do you have the 6.92 secs to find that info?

[guyser]

It takes about 6.92 seconds to scan the PDF file and find the summary of bankruptcy causes by province, with "medical reasons" averaging about 15%. The usual apologists will defend Canada's "wait until you're dying" healthcare system as not being the cause, but many older Canadians find it difficult to work full or part time when they can't frickin' walk or see !

This is information that has been presented and discussed in this forum several times.

Thankyou for that.

It should be noted that they use the term medical issues, but certainly not medical bills. IN the USA, that 15% (even tho its 'issues) climbs to 62% for medical bills.

In canada, they can go bankrupt due to medical reasons, being off workm lack of monetary support network etc.

That occurs down there too, but frankly most know it is medical bills that causes it.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Guyser2

[overthere]

It takes about 6.92 seconds to scan the PDF file and find the summary of bankruptcy causes by province, with "medical reasons" averaging about 15%. The usual apologists will defend Canada's "wait until you're dying" healthcare system as not being the cause, but many older Canadians find it difficult to work full or part time when they can't frickin' walk or see !

This is information that has been presented and discussed in this forum several times.

already noted that 'medical issues' refers to loss of incomne by being unable to work for medical reasons. Ironically, they still get health care despite not having a job. Hard for an American to imagine, but....

Has any US study calculated the billions it must cost the US economy due to lack of job mobility related to insurnace issues? You know, how many folks cannot start a business, change jobs etc becuase they cannot leave a company with good insurance for an uncertain future?

I also wonder about your 'wait until you're dying" meme. If that is true, why do Canadians live on average 2.7 years longer than Americans, despite being nearly as fat and living the same crappy life styles?

It's OK, I'll save you some floundering around on this one. It's because we - all of us, not just the rich and insured- have access to preventative medicine from prenatal to geriatric care. If you feel sick , you can see a doctor without user fees, copays, or a fight with a bureaucrat. Try it some time, you'll like it and hey! You'll live a couple years longer.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Has any US study calculated the billions it must cost the US economy due to lack of job mobility related to insurnace issues? You know, how many folks cannot start a business, change jobs etc becuase they cannot leave a company with good insurance for an uncertain future?

I have no idea whether such a study has been completed, for the U.S. or Canada, which obviously has its own "job mobility" issues within and across provinces. Even before the ACA, Americans had health insurance portability because of COBRA laws, passed during the Reagan administration.

I also wonder about your 'wait until you're dying" meme. If that is true, why do Canadians live on average 2.7 years longer than Americans, despite being nearly as fat and living the same crappy life styles?

Because they need the extra years for lifetime provincial healthcare wait times ? Canadians waiting with debilitating, untreated conditions are well documented, and this impacts not only their quality of life, but productive employment.

It's OK, I'll save you some floundering around on this one. It's because we - all of us, not just the rich and insured- have access to preventative medicine from prenatal to geriatric care. If you feel sick , you can see a doctor without user fees, copays, or a fight with a bureaucrat. Try it some time, you'll like it and hey! You'll live a couple years longer.

I don't mine paying....just like you pay. The difference is that I don't have to wait for a GP gatekeeper to get access to yet another waiting queue. Many poor Canadians do not get the same level of care....it even varies by province and location within a province/territory.

Edited June 26, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[guyser]

Because they need the extra years for lifetime provincial healthcare wait times ?

Yes, we keep then alive so they can wait.

Canadians waiting with debilitating, untreated conditions are well documented,

True dat. The documents all say those ' with debilitating, untreated conditions ' are treated in a timely efficient manner.

Triage, you can google it.

The difference is that I don't have to wait for a GP gatekeeper to get access to yet another waiting queue. .

We know, its even worse, you have to wait for some idiot lackey in a cubicle to decide

For the record? You have to get a GP to get access to the specialist...In 'merica.

You know....if that lackey decides in your favour.

LOL

[Bryan]

It takes about 6.92 seconds to scan the PDF file and find the summary of bankruptcy causes by province, with "medical reasons" averaging about 15%.

Did you read that section though? "Medical Reasons" in Canada means loss of income while dealing with health issues, not medical bills. Because in Canada, you CAN quit your job to deal with a serious medical condition full-time and not lose your coverage.

[bush_cheney2004]

Did you read that section though? "Medical Reasons" in Canada means loss of income while dealing with health issues, not medical bills. Because in Canada, you CAN quit your job to deal with a serious medical condition full-time and not lose your coverage.

Not relevant, as creditors will still come calling to get paid, unless the CHA prevents that as well. There are other direct and indirect costs that are not covered by provincial health care insurance.

[Bryan]

Not relevant, as creditors will still come calling to get paid, unless the CHA prevents that as well. There are other direct and indirect costs that are not covered by provincial health care insurance.

Nice misdirection. There are always SOME costs to anything in life. The very relevant point is that majority of the bills that millions of Americans get saddled with are virtually unheard of here.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nice misdirection. There are always SOME costs to anything in life. The very relevant point is that majority of the bills that millions of Americans get saddled with are virtually unheard of here.

I specifically meant direct and indirect healthcare related costs.

The bills that you claim are "unheard of" come in the way of mandatory taxes and fees, whether one uses health care or not. Americans are "saddled" with health care premiums in a similar way if they buy insurance products, plus copays and deductibles, but are not forced to pay for services they do not use in the same way. I realize that many Canadians have convinced themselves that their health care is "free", but that just isn't the case.

Edited June 27, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[monty16]

If b_c can't or won't provide a reference in the report then I'm finished with him. This is the kind of behaviour that is hurting this forum more than anything else. Everybody is in a hurry to insult and scream is not, is not, but nobody is willing to debate the issue.

[bush_cheney2004]

A link to the Canadian report has been provided. There is no debate....

Edited June 27, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

Economic costs of wait times in Canada...a study (2006):

The physician-members of the BCMA and the CMA are concerned by lengthy wait times.

The recent Supreme Court decision in favour of Dr. Chaoulli and Mr. Zelliotis suggest

s that physicians’ concerns—voiced repeatedly over many years—are well-founded

and patients’ legitimate medical needs are not being met. While physicians have drawn

attention to the health impact of excessive waits for care, this study is study is the first

to attempt to determine the economic impact of these waits. By making government policy makers aware of

the costs that these excessive waits entail, we hope that this analysis will stimulate discussion on this issue.

https://www.doctorsofbc.ca/files/Economic_cost_of_wait_times.pdf

[Shady]

Did you read that section though? "Medical Reasons" in Canada means loss of income while dealing with health issues, not medical bills. Because in Canada, you CAN quit your job to deal with a serious medical condition full-time and not lose your coverage.

I agree that one's health insurance should be there's, and not connected to any particular job.

[waldo]

Americans are bankrupted by their medical bills.

So are some Canadians.....so what?

how much is a "some"? Of course, it' not just about bankruptcy in the land of 'cash is king' medical care... many, many, more Americans are impacted in ways other than "just" bankruptcy. Within the comparative 'dead last/near the bottom' U.S. health care system, Medical Bankruptcy accounts for majority of personal bankruptcies

One in five American adults will struggle to pay medical bills this year. A sudden accident or frightening diagnosis can touch virtually anyone, unleashing mountains of bills even on the insured. In fact, medical bills are the leading cause of personal bankruptcy, a last resort after millions of families have drained their savings, maxed their credit cards and even refinanced their homes. To further understand the complexity of health costs, NerdWallet Health has compiled a series of estimates highlighting the strain of medical bills in 2013.

Summary Findings

NerdWallet estimates for 2013:

- 56M Americans under age 65 will have trouble paying medical bills

– Over 35M American adults (ages 19-64) will be contacted by collections agencies for unpaid medical bills

– Nearly 17M American adults (ages 19-64) will receive a lower credit rating on account of their high medical bills

– Over 15M American adults (ages 19-64) will use up all their savings to pay medical bills

– Over 11M American adults (ages 19-64) will take on credit card debt to pay off their hospital bills

– Nearly 10M American adults (ages 19-64) will be unable to pay for basic necessities like rent, food, and heat due to their medical bills

- Over 16M children live in households struggling with medical bills

- Despite having year-round insurance coverage, 10M insured Americans ages 19-64 will face bills they are unable to pay

- 1.7M Americans live in households that will declare bankruptcy due to their inability to pay their medical bills

- Three states will account for over one-quarter of those living in medical-related bankruptcy: California (248,002), Illinois (113,524), and Florida (99,780)

- To save costs, over 25M adults (ages 19-64) will not take their prescription drugs as indicated, including skipping doses, taking less medicine than prescribed or delaying a refill

In 2013 over 20% of American adults are struggling to pay their medical bills, and three in five bankruptcies will be due to medical bills. While we are quick to blame debt on poor savings and bad spending habits, our study emphasizes the burden of health costs causing widespread indebtedness.

yes, clearly... "cash is king" in the comparative 'dead last/near the bottom' U.S. health care system

.

[Shady]

how much is a "some"? Of course, it' not just about bankruptcy in the land of 'cash is king' medical care... many, many, more Americans are impacted in ways other than "just" bankruptcy. Within the comparative 'dead last/near the bottom' U.S. health care system, Medical Bankruptcy accounts for majority of personal bankruptcies

yes, clearly... "cash is king" in the comparative 'dead last/near the bottom' U.S. health care system

.

One of the reasons people have a hard time paying their medical bills, is because they're irresponsible. Instead of purchasing health insurance, they choose not to. Actions, or in this case, inaction has consequences. Regardless, if you're over 65, or under 65 but have low income, you qualify for government run, free health care.

[Bryan]

The bills that you claim are "unheard of" come in the way of mandatory taxes and fees, whether one uses health care or not.

You don't pay taxes?

[On Guard for Thee]

I specifically meant direct and indirect healthcare related costs.

The bills that you claim are "unheard of" come in the way of mandatory taxes and fees, whether one uses health care or not. Americans are "saddled" with health care premiums in a similar way if they buy insurance products, plus copays and deductibles, but are not forced to pay for services they do not use in the same way. I realize that many Canadians have convinced themselves that their health care is "free", but that just isn't the case.

And all those reasons are why you end up "dead last"

[monty16]

It's probably safe to assume that no Canadian is bankrupted by medical expenses.

Well, at least it's safe until some whining American claims and proves otherwise. Until then they're all just blowing smoke and running around with their pants on fire.

[bush_cheney2004]

You don't pay taxes?

Not for a "universal access" health care system...just Medicare payroll taxes. There are health care costs outside of provincial health care coverage that motivate many Canadians to buy supplemental insurance policies. When insurance and/or income/credit fall short, bankruptcies can ensue. Less than in the U.S., but it is a myth that nobody goes bankrupt in a single payer system because of health care costs.

[On Guard for Thee]

Not for a "universal access" health care system...just Medicare payroll taxes. There are health care costs outside of provincial health care coverage that motivate many Canadians to buy supplemental insurance policies. When insurance and/or income/credit fall short, bankruptcies can ensue. Less than in the U.S., but it is a myth that nobody goes bankrupt in a single payer system because of health care costs.

Much less than in the US.

[Bryan]

Not for a "universal access" health care system...just Medicare payroll taxes. There are health care costs outside of provincial health care coverage that motivate many Canadians to buy supplemental insurance policies. When insurance and/or income/credit fall short, bankruptcies can ensue. Less than in the U.S., but it is a myth that nobody goes bankrupt in a single payer system because of health care costs.

Significantly less. You'd pretty much have to put yourself in that financial position deliberately.

example:

A buddy of mine recently finished going through cancer treatment. He was off work for a year. He paid literally nothing out of pocket for the treatment or the meds, and received 55% of his salary (tax free) while he was away from work. Sure, he had to dial back his spending a bit during that time, but he did not come out of it with any added debt. The only way he could have gone bankrupt was if he said "screw it, I'm probably going to die anyway" and went on a spending spree.

[waldo]

2014 'Commonwealth Fund' latest review/update... Canada, you have some work to do here... and... the U.S. is still 'dead last' while, typically, outspending all other countries ~2:1



key findings:

• People in the US go without needed health care because of cost more often than people do in other countries
• Americans were the most likely to say they had access problems related to cost
• While US patients report rapid access to specialized health care services, they are less likely to report rapid access to primary care than people in the leading countries
• The US ranks last among the 11 countries on indicators of efficiency
• The US has poor performance on measures of national health expenditures and administrative costs, as well as on measures of administrative hassles, avoidable emergency room use, and duplicative medical testing
• One-third or more lower-income adults in the US said they went without needed care because of costs in the past year
• The US ranks last overall on measures of healthy lives, with poor scores on mortality amenable to medical care, infant mortality, and healthy life expectancy at age 60
• The US had much higher death rates from conditions amenable to medical care than some other countries (up to 50 percent higher than Australia and Sweden)

[monty16]

Good stuff Waldo. But of course the reason why Canadians are interested in the topic is because we need to be proactive. We must stop Harper from turning Canada into what the US has become.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada is dead last in access to health care....but Canada is #1 for access to waiting lists !

....Canadians rank last among top Western nations in getting to first base in the health-care system -- accessing a family doctor in a timely way.

But even when they get that far, making it to second base -- seeing the specialists many need -- is held up by a system in which the same family doctors, the gatekeepers for accessing services, lack a road map to timely care.

Even medically uninsured Americans fared better.

The findings paint an ugly picture of our health care compared to Australia, France, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and the United States. Other highlights:

• Nearly one in three Canadians waited at least two months to see a specialist, three times as bad as uninsured Americans.

http://www.lfpress.com/2013/11/21/canadas-dead-last-in-access-to-docs

[waldo]

hey wait-time deflector... nothing to say about another 'dead last' ranking for the U.S.? USA, USA, USA!!! (note the equivalent bold-highlighting and font-sizing... impressive, hey?)