F-35 Purchase Cancelled; CF-18 replacement process begins

[Derek 2.0]

The "do everything airplane" doesn't exist. They tried, I'll give 'em that. But it failed. You just can't get that done with the available technology. It's a very expensive experiment. Some valuable info has been garnered I'm sure. But put it back to bed with "lesson's learned" and then apply them appropriately. Before breaking the bank with the "Edsel" of fighter planes.

Seems counter to actual events……strange that not a single military has left the program, coupled with new nations joining and the F-35 not losing a single competition that it has taken part in…..Is it possible that the few remaining critics, most without any technical training or experience, are wrong?

[On Guard for Thee]

Seems counter to actual events……strange that not a single military has left the program, coupled with new nations joining and the F-35 not losing a single competition that it has taken part in…..Is it possible that the few remaining critics, most without any technical training or experience, are wrong?

Apparently they did get it up in the air after darkness, after great trepidation since the helmet gives you blurry/double vision, but then they found it can't go near bad weather (i.e. electrical storms) and you can't store it outside in cold weather, and let's see, oh yeah the engine recently blew up. Turbine fan failure they call it. Wow, I can't wait to strap my ass in one of those babies!

[On Guard for Thee]

Seems counter to actual events……strange that not a single military has left the program, coupled with new nations joining and the F-35 not losing a single competition that it has taken part in…..Is it possible that the few remaining critics, most without any technical training or experience, are wrong?

Actual events show pretty well everybody is backing away. They will buy some but they are cutting back the numbers. Not hard to figure out why. They got sucked in, and I'm sure with the best of intentions. It turned out we have the Edsel. I bet the Ruskies are having a giggle. They have Mig's that will outdo this money monster.

[Derek 2.0]

Apparently they did get it up in the air after darkness, after great trepidation since the helmet gives you blurry/double vision, but then they found it can't go near bad weather (i.e. electrical storms) and you can't store it outside in cold weather, and let's see, oh yeah the engine recently blew up. Turbine fan failure they call it. Wow, I can't wait to strap my ass in one of those babies!

Yet the HMDS and night flying have both been cleared.......Then engine issue was found in ground tests, on an engine with the equivalent of 9 years service (~75% of engine life) and the deficiency (manufacturing methods) has been identified and resolved……..Of course engine testing for any program only makes sense and is why the F-35 is yet have had a Class A event:

http://www.afsec.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-140520-048.pdf

[On Guard for Thee]

Yet the HMDS and night flying have both been cleared.......Then engine issue was found in ground tests, on an engine with the equivalent of 9 years service (~75% of engine life) and the deficiency (manufacturing methods) has been identified and resolved……..Of course engine testing for any program only makes sense and is why the F-35 is yet have had a Class A event:

http://www.afsec.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-140520-048.pdf

Had a compressor wheel blow up on a test stand just the other day. Haven't heard exactly why yet, but I could make a wild guess. HEAT.

[Derek 2.0]

Actual events show pretty well everybody is backing away. They will buy some but they are cutting back the numbers. Not hard to figure out why. They got sucked in, and I'm sure with the best of intentions. It turned out we have the Edsel. I bet the Ruskies are having a giggle. They have Mig's that will outdo this money monster.

That is a reflection of the economic climate and the effects on defence budgets worldwide…..believe it or not, the F-35 didn’t cause the Global recession……with that said, if it’s performance and cost were a negative factor, one would surmise said nations “backing away” would pick another aircraft so as to meet their stated requirements……funny that none of the partners have replaced their planned procurement of the F-35s with a “cheaper” alternative.

[Derek 2.0]

Had a compressor wheel blow up on a test stand just the other day. Haven't heard exactly why yet, but I could make a wild guess. HEAT.

Source? And was it part of the AMT portion?

[On Guard for Thee]

That is a reflection of the economic climate and the effects on defence budgets worldwide…..believe it or not, the F-35 didn’t cause the Global recession……with that said, if it’s performance and cost were a negative factor, one would surmise said nations “backing away” would pick another aircraft so as to meet their stated requirements……funny that none of the partners have replaced their planned procurement of the F-35s with a “cheaper” alternative.

http://aviationweek.com/awin/f135-fan-blows-during-f-35-engine-trial

[Derek 2.0]

http://aviationweek.com/awin/f135-fan-blows-during-f-35-engine-trial

And I already addressed said event:

From the link:

Bogdan says manufacturing and cost challenges associated with the hollow IBR already had prompted Pratt to start a redesign of the fan, which was under way when the failure occurred. Fixes based on lessons learned from the failure in December will be incorporated into the redesign, which involves producing the first-stage IBRs from solid titanium. The redesign is expected to add about 6 lb. to the total weight of the engine, but should ease manufacturing significantly. The change effectively represents the second redesign for the IBR, which was changed to a hollow unit as part of a weight-reduction effort.

Pratt confirms the planned modification is already under way, saying: “Prior to this incident, Pratt & Whitney initiated a redesign of the IBR to further reduce costs. We will be able to incorporate these changes with minimal impact to the operation of the F-35 fleet. We are confident the solid IBR design will resolve the issue.”

Last year was hardly the "other day", none the less, the AMT is doing it's job.

[eyeball]

…funny that none of the partners have replaced their planned procurement of the F-35s with a “cheaper” alternative.

Funny? I bet it's frightening as all hell to weapons manufacturers.

[waldo]

this is an improvement on Derek 1.0 who forever trotted out the line, "name one country that's left the program"! At least this version of Derek is now acknowledging the original procurement number commitments have been significantly peeled back. Of course, "commitment" means diddly until the contracts are signed and the dollars exchanged. One could suggest, in agreement with the new 2.0 version, the cutback procurement numbers reflect upon the "tightened economy"... others might suggest, given cost overruns/scheduling delays/lack of proved concept, countries are actually waiting to see the finished product. What a concept! Actually wanting proof to validate the hype/propaganda machine, rather than simply accepting the paper version of the product!

[Smallc]

Yes Waldo, ignore the austerity being exercised across the west.

[Big Guy]

In the Star to-day;

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/06/09/singleengine_f35_jet_risky_choice_for_canadas_air_force_report_warns.html

Does that make sense?

[bush_cheney2004]

This is not a problem. Canada can procure fewer than 65 F-35 strike fighters with an option for more, and the plane's critics here can claim a moral victory because LockMart will have to wait longer for Canada's billions. Of course, they may get some big fat cancellation fees too !

[waldo]

Yes Waldo, ignore the austerity being exercised across the west.

oh my! Austerity measures are completely responsible for all those procurement commitment reductions... sure, sure! Cause over-budget, over-hype, over-schedule and a lack of demonstrated results have nothing to do with it. Since the commitment numbers really mean nothing until contracts are established, why would any country reduce its number... just keep keeping on and don't sully the program brand. Australia is representative in that regard... the Australia government/military is now under significant scrutiny over its recent F-35 announcement. The comeback is quite revealing, as in "no worries... no monies are currently budgeted and if the plane doesn't pan out, we haven't signed any actual contracts"! Austerity!!!

[On Guard for Thee]

oh my! Austerity measures are completely responsible for all those procurement commitment reductions... sure, sure! Cause over-budget, over-hype, over-schedule and a lack of demonstrated results have nothing to do with it. Since the commitment numbers really mean nothing until contracts are established, why would any country reduce its number... just keep keeping on and don't sully the program brand. Australia is representative in that regard... the Australia government/military is now under significant scrutiny over its recent F-35 announcement. The comeback is quite revealing, as in "no worries... no monies are currently budgeted and if the plane doesn't pan out, we haven't signed any actual contracts"! Austerity!!!

Actually it may be better suited to Australlia. i don't think it ever gets very cold there.

[Smallc]

oh my! Austerity measures are completely responsible for all those procurement commitment reductions... sure, sure!

Governments are cancelling orders for all kinds of military equipment......

[Moonbox]

Of course, they may get some big fat cancellation fees too !

They won't face cancellation fees if Lockheed has blown the contract and the planes end up costing way more than originally agreed on. That's an easy one to walk away from.

We all know that's not going to happen though. It's not like Canada can build it's own planes and it's not like the US has a backup plan.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Moonbox

[bush_cheney2004]

They won't face cancellation fees if Lockheed has blown the contract and the planes end up costing way more than originally agreed on. That's an easy one to walk away from.

My glib comment was based on previous contracts that governments have walked away from, preferring to pay the cancellation fees (e.g. EH-101).

We all know that's not going to happen though. It's not like Canada can build it's own planes and it's not like the US has a backup plan.

A different government and anything is possible. Not sure what you mean by a US backup plan....Canada would lose most of the JSF contracts to other partner nations and the world would move on.

[waldo]

without any contracts being signed, what cancellation fees? Canada has signed no contracts. What partner countries have actually signed contracts for procurement commitments? For a partner-country choosing to actually leave the JSF program, as I understand it, the only lost monies would be sunken costs as a part of the development. If I recall correctly, from earlier in this thread, that would be less than $300 million to date for Canada.

Edited June 10, 2014 by waldo

[Moonbox]

A different government and anything is possible. Not sure what you mean by a US backup plan....Canada would lose most of the JSF contracts to other partner nations and the world would move on.

I mean the US is going to go forward with the F-35 now pretty much no matter what. They don't have a concurrent program running (like they always have in the past) and if the JSF program shut down today they wouldn't have anything to replace it with moving forward.

As a NATO and NORAD partner in particular, it's unlikely that Canada is going to deviate from the US in their choice of air defense platform. Frankly, any of the other options are just silly. By virtually all accounts, the F-35 program appears to have been a disaster, but that doesn't mean that it's still not going to be the best plane available to the program participants when it's ready.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Moonbox

[Smallc]

The F-35 was troubled, but now isn't. There would be no reason for a switch of direction.

[bush_cheney2004]

I mean the US is going to go forward with the F-35 now pretty much no matter what. They don't have a concurrent program running (like they always have in the past) and if the JSF program shut down today they wouldn't have anything to replace it with moving forward.

Agreed...all the marbles have been placed on the F-35. However, the U.S. still has F-18 Super Hornet and F-16 Block 60 production lines open for none/forward stealthy aircraft, and the tooling for the F-22 Raptor has been mothballed for production restart as needed. There is also the Boeing F-15E Strike Eagle. Unlike Canada, the U.S. maintains a sizable Air Guard force of fighter, tanker, and cargo aircraft.

[Derek 2.0]

this is an improvement on Derek 1.0 who forever trotted out the line, "name one country that's left the program"! At least this version of Derek is now acknowledging the original procurement number commitments have been significantly peeled back. Of course, "commitment" means diddly until the contracts are signed and the dollars exchanged. One could suggest, in agreement with the new 2.0 version, the cutback procurement numbers reflect upon the "tightened economy"... others might suggest, given cost overruns/scheduling delays/lack of proved concept, countries are actually waiting to see the finished product. What a concept! Actually wanting proof to validate the hype/propaganda machine, rather than simply accepting the paper version of the product!

One could suggest that…..but the evidence doesn’t confirm that…….One can look at the military of any of the partner nations and see unrelated programs and/or current capabilities reduced for budgetary reasons post Global economic crisis.

For example, the Dutch taking a clever to their army, or in the United Kingdom, the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force retiring the entire Harrier Fleet and their two remaining aircraft carriers (Ark Royal and later this year Illustrious) and accepting a capability gap until the QE class and F-35B enters service later this decade.

[Derek 2.0]

oh my! Austerity measures are completely responsible for all those procurement commitment reductions... sure, sure! Cause over-budget, over-hype, over-schedule and a lack of demonstrated results have nothing to do with it. Since the commitment numbers really mean nothing until contracts are established, why would any country reduce its number... just keep keeping on and don't sully the program brand. Australia is representative in that regard... the Australia government/military is now under significant scrutiny over its recent F-35 announcement. The comeback is quite revealing, as in "no worries... no monies are currently budgeted and if the plane doesn't pan out, we haven't signed any actual contracts"! Austerity!!!

I’m glad you brought up Australia, which is now planning to transition out of it’s (recently purchased) Super Hornets earlier in favour of a follow on purchase of F-35Bs, which will reconstitute the RAN’s FAA…..