F-35 Purchase Cancelled; CF-18 replacement process begins

[waldo]

Five separate aircraft Waldo, 1-2-3-4-5. As I said, the RAND report and their revisionist history is not inclusive of what the JSF program set out to replace from the onset for the United States and the United Kingdom.

Please, square that circle

I can certainly continue to quote the LockMart claim... if you'd like! The claim you continue to ignore. What part of Rand targeting (and busting) the LockMart claim do you have difficulty with? What part of that Sweetman article where the Joint Program Office is stated to not dispute the Rand report do you have difficulty with?

Rand isn't revising anything. Again,

... 2 LockMart claims were busted by Rand:

- #1 LockMart claim busted => that the cost of the joint program would be 65% less than the cost of 3 single-service offerings, and

- #2 LockMart claim busted => that there would be 80% commonality between the respective variants

.

[Guest Derek L]

I can certainly continue to quote the LockMart claim... if you'd like! The claim you continue to ignore. What part of Rand targeting (and busting) the LockMart claim do you have difficulty with? What part of that Sweetman article where the Joint Program Office is stated to not dispute the Rand report do you have difficulty with?

Rand isn't revising anything. Again,

... 2 LockMart claims were busted by Rand:

- #1 LockMart claim busted => that the cost of the joint program would be 65% less than the cost of 3 single-service offerings, and

- #2 LockMart claim busted => that there would be 80% commonality between the respective variants

.

So which aircraft replacements are precluded under RAND’s revisionist history? And what of their replacement? Doesn’t count I suppose?

And you’ve still yet to answer as to what these separate replacement programs would have looked like. Would they have built upon already existing aircraft, say like a Harrier III or a Super-duper-uber-Hornet, or would they have been programs built form the ground up?

So what would it cost to replace each of:

1. F-16

2. F/A-18

3. A-10

4. Harrier II

5. Tornado

All in separate programs?

[waldo]

keep flapping... while you ignore the actual busted LockMart claim... busted LockMart claims:

... 2 LockMart claims were busted by Rand:

- #1 LockMart claim busted => that the cost of the joint program would be 65% less than the cost of 3 single-service offerings, and

- #2 LockMart claim busted => that there would be 80% commonality between the respective variants

[Guest Derek L]

Furthermore, they are irrelevant to Canada, which does not operate single-role tactical aircraft or redundant types of multi-role tactical aircraft.

Exactly..;..or pay the lions share in development of such aircraft.

None the less:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/militarys-fighter-jet-price-reports-to-put-ball-in-ottawas-court-on-f-35s/article16180717/

The Canadian Forces have finished exploring the world market for fighter jets, putting pressure on the government to decide whether to launch a competition or forge ahead with the sole-sourced purchase of F-35s before the next election.

According to documents posted on a federal website on Thursday, the Canadian Forces have already prepared draft reports on the price, the technical capabilities and the strategic advantages of the four fighter jets in the running.

Piddle or get off the pot time:

The newly released documents suggest the government will have to make its decision in short order because of concerns over the viability of the current fleet of CF-18s, which is set to be phased out between 2017 and 2023.

Any decision on the life extension of the CF-18s will depend on Ottawa’s main choice in coming months: whether to launch a full-blown competition for new aircraft, which could take years, or proceed with its initial decision to directly buy a fleet of 65 Lockheed-Martin F-35s, a high-tech aircraft that is still in development.

Spring or early Summer......probably on a Friday afternoon

[waldo]

Spring or early Summer......probably on a Friday afternoon

why would you presume Harper Conservatives would want to "bury the decision"? Obviously, the DND fix is in... there's never been any real consideration otherwise! It will be most illuminating to read DND (and ultimately Harper Conservatives) validate the decision based on LockMart propaganda... and nothing but... LockMart propaganda. Cause, like... what else is there to go by?

Edited January 5, 2014 by waldo

[ReeferMadness]

Are we still arguing over this flying butterball? It's after Christmas, time to forget all about the turkey and move on.

[Guest Derek L]

Are we still arguing over this flying butterball? It's after Christmas, time to forget all about the turkey and move on.

I’m certain we will once it’s finally reselected later this year once the “alternatives” have had their laundry fully aired in a public manner……….At such time, the Trudeau Liberals (with the aide of their new defence advisor) will get onboard, as for the NDP and everybody else? Well nobody really cares what they think, since they have zero chance of ever forming a Government.

[waldo]

I'm certain we will once it’s finally reselected later this year once the “alternatives” have had their laundry fully aired in a public manner……….

public manner??? Really? You actually believe we'll get to see the full non-redacted assessment details... the full rationale for DND/Harper Conservatives sticking with the F-35; sticking with "the flying butterball'?

[bush_cheney2004]

How could so many days go by without any F-35 JSF news for Canada ? LockMart wants to send some special aerospace love via webinar for all those jobs in the provinces:

Free Webinar—F-35: Building Jobs in Canada

From NGRAIN to Magellan Aerospace to Avcorp, companies across Canada are contributing to the F-35 program and impacting jobs, cities and the Canadian economy. With total industrial opportunities in Canada expected to exceed $11 billion, the F-35 will deliver high-skill, high-technology jobs throughout Canada for decades to come.

Edited January 22, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

How could so many days go by without any F-35 JSF news for Canada ? LockMart wants to send some special aerospace love via webinar for all those jobs in the provinces:

Free Webinar—F-35: Building Jobs in Canada

From NGRAIN to Magellan Aerospace to Avcorp, companies across Canada are contributing to the F-35 program and impacting jobs, cities and the Canadian economy. With total industrial opportunities in Canada expected to exceed $11 billion, the F-35 will deliver high-skill, high-technology jobs throughout Canada for decades to come.

Of Course the F-35 will be a boon for the Canadian aerospace and high-tech industries, just as it will for the other partner nations……….but this report:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-22/lockheed-martin-inflates-f-35-jobs-claims-nonprofit-says.html

Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT) has “greatly exaggerated” the number of U.S. jobs generated by the F-35 fighter jet, the Pentagon’s costliest weapons program, according to a new report from a nonprofit research group.

The company’s claim that it has created 125,000 U.S.-based direct and indirect jobs in 46 states “is roughly double the likely number of jobs sustained by the program,” the Center for International Policy said in the report released today.

So now that orders are coming in and the aircraft will start operational service with the Marines next year, the anti-F-35 crowd has decided to target F-35 employment numbers…….Funny enough, the Center for International Policy’s mission statement: “promoting a US foreign policy based on international cooperation, demilitarization and respect for human rights”.....All things the F-35 will excel at!!!

Those peaceniks should be trusted…

Like all past defense procurement programs (D5 Trident, tomahawk, M1 Abrams, B-2, Los Angeles, Ticonderoga and Nimitz classes etc) once the hippies start going after employment numbers, they’ve truly lost the initiative……..

Edited January 22, 2014 by Derek L

[waldo]

So now that orders are coming in and the aircraft will start operational service with the Marines next year, the anti-F-35 crowd has decided to target F-35 employment numbers.

what orders are "coming in"? What absolute, signed/committed orders are "coming in"? And if you have numbers... and they refer to existing formal partner nations... how do those numbers compare to original commitments made?

I've just had a quick read of an article describing the bill Obama recently signed... and what that bill signing means in terms of U.S. funding and the accompanying impact on updating the LockMart per year production numbers. Care to speak to how one gets from the most recent (as updated) production numbers, to any semblance of real-world production to meet any kind of procurement (postured versus real)... whether coming from the U.S., partner nations or an incentivized "newcomer" country?

as for the U.S. Marines "operational service next year". Care to be more/most specific and advise of a date and... more pointedly... just what will that variant be capable of in your quite liberal use of "operational service"?

on edit: apparently... per the new Reuters article, you'll have a wait on your U.S. Marines operational service start, talking point!

Pentagon report faults F-35 on software, reliability ... 2016? 2017? And again, this would still be no where near the final true production capable (at least as hyped/projected) plane:

Edited January 24, 2014 by waldo

[Guest Derek L]

what orders are "coming in"? What absolute, signed/committed orders are "coming in"? And if you have numbers... and they refer to existing formal partner nations... how do those numbers compare to original commitments made?

I've just had a quick read of an article describing the bill Obama recently signed... and what that bill signing means in terms of U.S. funding and the accompanying impact on updating the LockMart per year production numbers. Care to speak to how one gets from the most recent (as updated) production numbers, to any semblance of real-world production to meet any kind of procurement (postured versus real)... whether coming from the U.S., partner nations or an incentivized "newcomer" country?

as for the U.S. Marines "operational service next year". Care to be more/most specific and advise of a date and... more pointedly... just what will that variant be capable of in your quite liberal use of "operational service"?

on edit: apparently... per the new Reuters article, you'll have a wait on your U.S. Marines operational service start, talking point!

Pentagon report faults F-35 on software, reliability ... 2016? 2017? And again, this would still be no where near the final true production capable (at least as hyped/projected) plane:

I really don’t have the time (nor inclination) right now to reengage in a circle argument with you, but I will say this, what are the prerequisites for the F-35 to receive the Waldo seal of approval? Or better put, if the Liberals were to form Government in 2015 and in turn continue with the F-35 for the RCAF, you’d disapprove?

Clearly your standards appear higher then all the modern air forces and Governments of the F-35 partner nations, so again, would you disapprove of a hypothetical Liberal Party of Canada F-35 purchase?

Face it, the program won't be canceled and Canada will purchase the F-35, what is needed for the Waldo to drink the kool-aide? A photo-op of the young Ponce inside one perhaps?

[waldo]

I really don’t have the time (nor inclination) right now to reengage in a circle argument with you, but I will say this, what are the prerequisites for the F-35 to receive the Waldo seal of approval?

so... no comment from you then on the delay, yet another delay, in regards your earlier 'crowing' over the U.S. Marines 2015 "operational service"? Of course, I was really waiting on your definition of "2B operational capability". The 'waldo seal of approval' will not be forthcoming for the F-35, at any point of time.

[Guest Derek L]

The 'waldo seal of approval' will not be forthcoming for the F-35, at any point of time.

Good to know, then we're done......too bad I didn't ask about 30-40 pages ago

[waldo]

oh... you mean you were actually trying to "win me over" to the flying-butterball?

[Guest Derek L]

oh... you mean you were actually trying to "win me over" to the flying-butterball?

No, not at all…..I would say more a curiosity on if your motivations were solely political…..So to clarify, if the Trudeau Liberals formed Government sometime in the future and didn’t cancel a purchase contract inked by a previous Conservative Government for the F-35, you’d be wholly repulsed by such an action.

Furthermore, if said presumptive Liberal Government came to power when the F-35 was in either partial or full service with the RCAF, you’d fully expect the Liberals to retire/replace/sell-off said fleet correct?

That is how far your disdain for the program extends, despite contrary support of the program by not only the respective militaries of the partner nations, but near full bilateral support of the program by various Governments, of various political leanings, from the partner nations.

[waldo]

The 'waldo seal of approval' will not be forthcoming for the F-35, at any point of time.

still no comment from you concerning the latest USMC delay, hey? Still no comment from you as to what your postured reference to "operational service" (now delayed... yet again), actually means, hey?

[Guest Derek L]

still no comment from you concerning the latest USMC delay, hey? Still no comment from you as to what your postured reference to "operational service" (now delayed... yet again), actually means, hey?

Let me know if the F-35B doesn’t deploy next year as scheduled.......

[waldo]

I guess you can attempt to deflect away from your posturing... to deflect away from the Pentagon report article reference I linked to. You clearly thought it was a 'big deal' or you wouldn't have touted it, right?

[Guest Derek L]

I guess you can attempt to deflect away from your posturing... to deflect away from the Pentagon report article reference I linked to. You clearly thought it was a 'big deal' or you wouldn't have touted it, right?

Let me know when Uncle Sam's Misguided Children change their F-35B IOC from July 2015......to a later date....I remember just several years ago when the experts said the F-35B was to be dropped

Till then:

[waldo]

I don't have to... 'let you know'... the referenced Pentagon report just... 'told you'!

[Guest Derek L]

I don't have to... 'let you know'... the referenced Pentagon report just... 'told you'!

No it didn't......

[waldo]

No it didn't......

have you seen/read the draft Pentagon report? I've not... I've not found it out there... I'm waiting for it's official presentation to the U.S. Congress this week as a precursor for wide/open distribution of the report. Are you able to refute the news agency reports of that draft report; i.e. in regards your claim for the 'B' variant/USMC "operational service" date?

The 25-page report, scheduled to be delivered to Congress this week, provided a disturbing glimpse of the aircrafts Block 2B software, which is currently not performing at the level of earlier expectations and could significantly delay deployment of the plane.

"Initial results with the new increment of Block 2B software indicate deficiencies still exist in fusion, radar, electronic warfare, navigation, electro-optical target system, distributed aperture system, helmet-mounted display system, and datalink

The software issued too many nuisance warnings that resulted in poor sensor performance, the report said, adding that Lockheed Martin had delivered F-35 jets with 50 percent or less of the software capabilities as stipulated by its contract with the Pentagon.

Due to the high number of technical problems, the 2B software overhaul would not be finished until November 2015 - 13 months later than originally planned, the report forecast. This would delay release to the F-35 fleet until July 2016, a year after the Marine Corps anticipated using the aircraft.

and again, you continue to avoid the very pointed questioning as to what actual capabilities exist, particularly in the claimed "operational service" context, with 2B software and associated hardware/weapons systems/etc.

[bush_cheney2004]

....have you seen/read the draft Pentagon report? I've not... I've not found it out there... I'm waiting for it's official presentation to the U.S. Congress this week

Well we'll just get right on that then. Who knew that certain Canadians impatiently wait for Pentagon reports to the U.S. Congress. Chop-chop Pentagon !

[DogOnPorch]

F-35A of the 422nd TES arrives at Hill AFB in Utah.