F-35 Purchase Cancelled; CF-18 replacement process begins

[Guest Derek L]

Since the inception of the ICBM and ballistic missiles in general, manned bombers have been used many times in many different situations. Ballistic missiles, very few and ICBM's, none.

Exactly, and manned bombers are more versatile and survivable then land-based ICBMs…….indecently, I posted in this very thread a few months back a prediction, then confirmation that the next generation bomber currently underdevelopment will be manned….Or look to the earlier concepts surrounding the 6th generation fighter…….still has 0/0 ejection seat…..

I very much expect that one day autonomous UAVs will complement manned flight, but to expect the current or near developed brand of essentially “remote controlled” types that we have today replacing today’s requirements is pure fantasy……Case in point the very early retirement of the GlobalHawk fleet in favour of keeping the 50s vintage U-2 still in service as a strategic reconnaissance asset….

I’ll jump up and down over unmanned flight once an example is deemed capable of operating in everything other than restricted airspace, and then, unlike issues that became pronounced in Afghanistan, not a hazard to other aircraft.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Derek L

[waldo]

Questioning? More like jumping up and down stamping your feet. Never found it accomplished much that was constructive.

yes, questioning, yes, challenging. Apparently, to you, anyone pointing out problems/concerns is, as you say, "outraged"... is, as you say, "jumping up and down stamping your feet".

[waldo]

The US still practices MITO due to the threat of nuclear annihilation at minimal notice.

clearly, you're quite accepting to, quite enamored with, your described U.S. practice... relying upon the U.S. to undertake that practice. Is there a problem?

However, you're on record seeing nuclear armed Tu-95s and Tu-160s in Canadian airspace as a non-threat. Hmmmm...

hmmmm... in, actually in... Canadian airspace?

[waldo]

I posted in this very thread a few months back a prediction, then confirmation that the next generation bomber currently underdevelopment will be manned

except, as I pointed out a few posts back, the new proposed U.S. long-range bomber is stated to include specifications that must be met to include an option for unmanned flight.

I very much expect that one day autonomous UAVs will complement manned flight

you ignore/negate technological advances that most certainly will relegate manned jets to the museum. It's absolute nonsense to suggest the F-35 (to suggest any new plane) will ride out it's quoted "life cycle"... something that reinforces the folly of your cheer-leading exercise!

[Wilber]

is there an active helo thread... point me to an active thread and, if motivated, I may offer the sage waldo opinion you so desire.

There was one last June. Helicopter Deal-F-35 all over again? You showed little interest in it other than how Harper might use it to get votes in Quebec.

[waldo]

There was one last June. Helicopter Deal-F-35 all over again? You showed little interest in it other than how Harper might use it to get votes in Quebec.

just checked it out... a nothing thread... 24 posts in total; a thread that died very quickly, principally due to the heavy porn presence. I added a few posts to the thread; yes, one that challenged the 'Derek L' suggestion that there was no political advantage to be had for Harper Conservatives... since the Bell plant is in a NDP Quebec riding. Mine was a rather innocuous question where I asked, "so..... since there's only one bidder left, are you stating Harper Conservatives won't use this as a vehicle to promote its efforts to secure contracts/employment for Quebec, at large?". Before all the porn started, there were only a couple of other points (re: FAA exception and the Coast Guard angle)... I spoke to both.

is this the best you can do?

[Wilber]

It died because the usual culprits didn't want to talk about it. Here is a 20 year old saga that could end up with us operating a one off helicopter used by no one else and you aren't interested because it wasn't foisted on us by the present government. You are just so transparent it makes one chuckle.

[Guest Derek L]

It died because the usual culprits didn't want to talk about it. Here is a 20 year old saga that could end up with us operating a one off helicopter used by no one else and you aren't interested because it wasn't foisted on us by the present government. You are just so transparent it makes one chuckle.

I agree with the crux of your post, but the initial studies to replace the Sea Kings began in the late 70s under Trudeau, with the Trudeau Government opting to replace the antiquated (over 35 years ago) mission suite, with no movement on an actual replacement until the Mulroney Government…….and of course, the rest is history.

[eyeball]

Can you make a logical debate on why why do we "not" need a strike fighter.

The sheer cost of conventionally invading another country is so ridiculously high it's not worth worrying about never mind contemplate doing.

[Guest Derek L]

And some further positive news from the F-35 program:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/30/us-lockheed-fighter-weapon-idUSBRE99T1IR20131030

An F-35 B-model jet released the Guided Bomb Unit-12 (GBU-12) Paveway II bomb from its internal weapons bay while flying at around 25,000 feet, successfully smashing into a tank parked on the ground, the Pentagon's F-35 program office said in a statement. It took 35 seconds to hit the target.

"This guided weapons delivery test of a GBU-12 marks the first time the F-35 truly became a weapon system," said Marine Corps Major Richard Rusnok, the pilot who flew the plane during the weapons test Tuesday. "It represents another step forward in development of this vital program."

A feat yet unmatched by Eurofighter, which still requires another legacy aircraft to “paint the target”, and up until recently, the French Rafale, that likewise still has “issues”……..Of course the French have yet to accomplish such a feat with Rafale equipped with a modern (and accurate) AESA radar.

[Wilber]

The sheer cost of conventionally invading another country is so ridiculously high it's not worth worrying about never mind contemplate doing.

Yup, what we realy need is fighters that can't fight at all. That's the ticket.

[eyeball]

What fight?

[bush_cheney2004]

What fight?

The fight to protect "human rights" and meet the Canadian defined "Responsibility to Protect" (using laser guided bombs).

[eyeball]

I don't buy it - if we were really serious about doing that we'd have long since stopped having truck and trade with irresponsible countries.

Edited October 31, 2013 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't buy it - if we were really serious about doing that we'd have long since stopped having truck and trade with irresponsible countries.

Michael Ignatieff's books say otherwise....Canada's foreign policy is as Canada does, whether one buys it or not.

Edited October 31, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

It died because the usual culprits didn't want to talk about it. Here is a 20 year old saga that could end up with us operating a one off helicopter used by no one else and you aren't interested because it wasn't foisted on us by the present government. You are just so transparent it makes one chuckle.

Here's the link:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/22806-helicopter-deal-f-35-all-over-again/

I fully expect the topic to be revisited within the next couple of weeks, and in turn, the unabashed uproar to entail from a sole sourced contract to finally end the saga.

I will say for those actually interested in the topic, the few media reports out in the ether by CBC have been actually well done and put several of the issues facing selection into layman’s terms…….The few facts devoid of the CBC’s reporting have been that the Government has requested info from several manufactures (as reported by the CBC) with the proposals having all been submitted nearly two weeks ago……..and the recommendations and findings will be given to cabinet (probably next week) relatively shortly…….and then a course of action plotted very quickly……..

Based on the lack of movement on MEREX, I fully expect one of two things…….remaining with the Cyclone or the signing of a very quick sole source contract with the only company currently able to meet our requirements, both in terms of aircraft safety, missions suite effectiveness and operability with our current and future surface combatants……And that would be:

[waldo]

It died because the usual culprits didn't want to talk about it. Here is a 20 year old saga that could end up with us operating a one off helicopter used by no one else and you aren't interested because it wasn't foisted on us by the present government. You are just so transparent it makes one chuckle.

no - it died because of the porn purveyors... something that's happened in other threads - it gets to the point only porn enthusiasts remain! As for your described "government foisting", is it your contention that the helicopter historical saga associates with a single government, with a single political party? In any case, as with other distractions... foisted... upon this thread, again I'll ask, what's your exact point in bringing it to this thread?

[waldo]

And some further positive news from the F-35 program: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/30/us-lockheed-fighter-weapon-idUSBRE99T1IR20131030

An F-35 B-model jet released the Guided Bomb Unit-12 (GBU-12)Paveway II bomb from its internal weapons bay while flying at around 25,000 feet, successfully smashing into a tank parked on the ground

A feat yet unmatched by Eurofighter, which still requires another legacy aircraft to “paint the target”

not bad for 40-year old tech! As just one example within the Eurofighter grouping, Paveway II/Thermal Imaging Airborne Laser Designation (TIALD) pod has been integrated for a while... along with a whack of other planes (and their respective laser guidance capabilities). Of course, one could highlight the assortment of Paveway upgrade paths that are also integrated into various Eurofighter variants... how about a couple... like the UK's RAF FGR4 and Integrated GPS/INS (GPS-Aided Inertial Navigation System (GAINS)... or the dual-mode GPS and Laser guided GBU-48 Enhanced Paveway II flown by the UK, Germany and Spain. Should one really bother to check your claim concerning the Rafale?

[Wilber]

no - it died because of the porn purveyors... something that's happened in other threads - it gets to the point only porn enthusiasts remain! As for your described "government foisting", is it your contention that the helicopter historical saga associates with a single government, with a single political party? In any case, as with other distractions... foisted... upon this thread, again I'll ask, what's your exact point in bringing it to this thread?

WOW.

[waldo]

WOW.

HUH?

[Guest Derek L]

not bad for 40-year old tech! As just one example within the Eurofighter grouping, Paveway II/Thermal Imaging Airborne Laser Designation (TIALD) pod has been integrated for a while... along with a whack of other planes (and their respective laser guidance capabilities). Of course, one could highlight the assortment of Paveway upgrade paths that are also integrated into various Eurofighter variants... how about a couple... like the UK's RAF FGR4 and Integrated GPS/INS (GPS-Aided Inertial Navigation System (GAINS)... or the dual-mode GPS and Laser guided GBU-48 Enhanced Paveway II flown by the UK, Germany and Spain. Should one really bother to check your claim concerning the Rafale?

http://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/1011755.pdf

In 2004, the Department decided to withdraw its Jaguar aircraft. In the same year,

it decided to spend £119 million to upgrade its early Typhoons to replace the Jaguar’s

ground attack capability. The upgrade was successfully introduced in July 2008.

In 2009, a corporate decision was taken to retire early the other air defence fighter, the

Tornado F3, to save money. As a result, Typhoon aircraft have been prioritised to take

over the air defence role that the Tornado F3 fulfilled. The Department can currently

deploy a small number of Typhoon multi‑role aircraft but in the majority of cases, such

as Afghanistan, the Tornado GR4 remains the Department’s preferred ground attack

aircraft. Newer Typhoon aircraft will have progressively enhanced multi‑role capability

with, for example, laser guided Paveway IV bombs and Storm Shadow cruise missiles

by 2018. By this time Typhoon is likely to be the aircraft of choice for both ground attack

and air defence.

In other words, the the full potential of the FGR4/tranche 3 won't will be realised to closer to the end of this decade……and hey, they might even have an AESA radar working in that timeframe…..Not bad for pushing nearly 40 years of development….

[waldo]

In other words

in other words you've quoted something that has no relation to your initial (GBU-12) Paveway II reference.

[Guest Derek L]

in other words you've quoted something that has no relation to your initial (GBU-12) Paveway II reference.

No, you quoted something that you don't understand:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/tiald.cfm

The TIALD pod was modified to provide a TV sensor in addition to the infrared sensor and, following a number of other upgrades, the current 400-Series pod is now flown on the Tornado aircraft. A further upgrade is planned to the pod sensors and electronics, after which it will be re-designated as the 500-Series pod.

Though the RAF deemed the integration of TIALD on Eurofighter “complete” about 5-6 years ago, the Libyan campaign still saw RAF Tornados designating targets with their TIALD pods namely for themselves and on occasion, RAF Typhoons (Eurofighter). Same goes with the RAF’s commitment in Afghanistan where they relied on the now retired Harrier and the Tornados for close support.

In essence, the Eurofighter, minus a Weapons Officer (like the Tornado) and a AESA radar, when using the TIALD has to rely upon it’s onboard SatNav guidance system to aide in “targeting” guided bombs, which degrades terribly the accuracy of said smart munitions.

As such, the RAF has been attempting to correct this deficiency by integrating the LITENING pod into their Tornado and Typhoon fleets (The F-35 will have such a pod internally of course), but until ~2018 (as per my linked MoD piece) won’t be fully capable in the Eurofighter/Typhoon due to the lack of AESA radar, and to add, at such time the Eurofighter might be able to undertake the SEAD role (still performed by the Tornado) in more than a single use, aluminium cloud kinda way.

Of course I also failed to mention that most of the current tranche I and a portion of the tranche II aircraft will be put in “mothballs” at such time, incidentally once the F-35 enters RAF and RN squadron service….With all that being said, I’m certain the Eurofighter would be more than adequate to Canada’s requirements if we needed to refight the Battle of Britain.

[waldo]

No, you quoted something that you don't understand:

no - I understand it perfectly. I also understand you are feverishly avoiding your false claim concerning Paveway II and Eurofighter.

[Guest Derek L]

no - I understand it perfectly. I also understand you are feverishly avoiding your false claim concerning Paveway II and Eurofighter.

Are you suggesting I’m lying over the role RAF Tornado’s played in Libya?