F-35 Purchase Cancelled; CF-18 replacement process begins

[Guest Derek L]

Perhaps i did not explain it well enough, the upgrades mean we moderized the aircraft to fight in a modern enviroment to a piont. Without upgrading struture meaning airframe wing roots etc you can not extend the life of any aircraft...be like changing your 8 track for a cd player in your model t....Once the airframe hours are up they to will need to be refitted or the aircraft retired. And that is close to where we will be in the near future.

Exactly and the upgrade program we did to our Hornets, was to bring our Hornets (A & B models) inline with the decades newer C & D Hornets…….Like I said, the need was recognized in the 1990s after operations in the FRY, but only hastened by the Chrétien Government post 9/11 and started in '02.……

[Guest Derek L]

Yes the Gen spoke his mind to the media, he however does not talk for the Commander of the Airforce does he, nor does his remark mean that he has insider info on everything inside the Airforce. Before the Afghan war all the element commanders were doing the same thing puffing up thier chests, beating the war drums it is what we do ,getting a chance to prove your training is something all warriors life for....until they get there then once they have a taste of war it becomes a different story...When asked by the Prime minister , the CDS told him we DND was not ready for a conflict....despite all the chest pumping by his suborintes.

The General was not out of line in his statement regarding Canadian Hornets to Afghanistan being a political decision, due to the shortages of Hornets undergoing the IMP upgrade (2002-2010) in the operational squadrons and the increased post 9/11 tempo in relation to NORAD (Operation Noble Eagle), a Canadian commitment to Afghanistan along the similar lines as that to Libya would have required pulling resources away from NORAD…..

Simply put, 6-8 RCAF Hornets to the Dirt Box would translate into CANR being devoid of a two aircraft flight, 24/7, guarding a geographical region of Canada……Hence a requirement to make up for this loss by either pulling aircraft and pilots from the finite resources of our training system or the more likely scenario, requesting the Americans to directly contribute to the 24/7 defence of a geographic region within Canada……..Now what do you think the Canadian press’s reaction would be on learning that part-time pilots of the South Dakota Air National Guard were the only defence against a 9/11 like terror attack on a major Canadian city?

In the end, it was decided that what we could contribute to Afghanistan would be better utilized at home, and of course, there was no shortage of fighters (and bombers) over in the dirt box……….now helicopters is another story…

[waldo]

The General was not out of line in his statement regarding Canadian Hornets to Afghanistan being a political decision

that's right - as my provided link suggests, as the Major-General quoted within my provided link suggests... a political decision... one that reflects upon an inability to step-up given resource constraints. It quite clearly begs the question: what will change in a "post Hornet world" to allow the wants/dreams of Canadian force projectors to be realized? Do the math with 65 jets. Is there a problem?

... to the Dirt Box

... over in the dirt box

is that kinda like someone who wasn't there speaking of "the Nam"?

[waldo]

Drone surveillance. Whoopee. That's like having hi def security cameras and no police force.

as I asked, what's your interpreted/understood/accepted time frame for drones providing more than your described HD capability? You never did state why you feel Canada needs a "strike fighter".

[Wilber]

as I asked, what's your interpreted/understood/accepted time frame for drones providing more than your described HD capability? You never did state why you feel Canada needs a "strike fighter".

If we can only afford one type of fighter, we need one that is versatile as possible. While drones are quite good at what they can do, their capbilities are still quite limited in comparison to manned aircraft.

[Guest Derek L]

Some more F-35 news:

http://www.examiner.com/article/navy-f-35-fighter-drops-first-bomb

The aircraft-carrier variant of the new F-35 Lightning II fighter jet has dropped its first bomb, program officials said Oct. 25.

During an Oct. 21 flight over an Atlantic test range, the F-35C’s pilot released an inert, 500-pound Paveway II laser-guided bomb from an internal weapons bay. The aircraft became the last of the three F-35 variants to complete such a “weapons separation” test.

But more importantly for the USN:

The U.S. Navy plans to begin testing the F-35C aboard an aircraft carrier in 2014. Compared to the Air Force F-35A and the Marine Corps F-35B, the F-35C has larger wing surfaces and reinforced landing gear to withstand the demanding launches and landings of an aircraft-carrier environment.

I didn't think we'd see that for a few more years........

And on the South Korea file:

http://ca.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idCABRE99M0ZL20131023?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

South Korean officials could announce their plans as early as November to secure the funding needed to ensure initial deliveries of the F-35 in 2017, according to multiple sources who were not authorized to speak publicly. They cautioned that the decisions were not yet final, and an announcement could still be postponed if the decision-making process hits a snag.

Should be an exiting next couple of weeks, like I've alluded to a few days ago, I fully expect the F-35 orders to begin to cascade over the next 6 months to a year.......

Also:

South Korean officials have said they are examining a mixed procurement approach that could help Seoul maintain sufficient numbers of fighters in its fleet if the F-35 runs into further delays. They are also looking at scaling back the size of the order to 40 or 50 planes.

Analysts say Boeing is now offering Seoul a range of options for an upgraded F-15, instead of the more expensive Silent Eagle variant the company initially proposed, although the Silent Eagle version remains an option.

This could very well be the final death throes of the decades old, but storied career of the F-15 Eagle.......A mixed fleet might be a viable option for the South Koreans, but I'd be surprised if in the end, common sense does not prevail and the Koreans stick with just the F-35.......

And of course this:

While Seoul considers a new path, Boeing has begun to back away from the F-15 Silent Eagle model, focusing on other possible upgrades to create a more advanced, albeit less stealthy, plane, according to industry sources and analysts.

The company has scaled back the team that had been working on the Silent Eagle variant while it awaits instructions from Seoul and the defense ministry, industry sources said.

And I fully expect that Boeing, for it’s own fiscal solvency, will also drop the self funded Super-Duper-Hornet in the months ahead due in large part to the realization that they lost to Lockheed over a decade ago…….

Going forward, I truly feel sorry for the plant workers and engineers that very well could lose their jobs, and I’d hope any losses could be made up through natural attrition and early retirements, but ultimately Boeing needs to now concentrate their resources into the next generation bomber, strategic lifter and of course, the eventual 6th generation fighter that will compete in the 2030s with the F-35 in replacing the Super Hornet, Strike Eagle and eventually the Raptor……

[On Guard for Thee]

Did it actually drop a bomb, or did it just fall off?

[waldo]

Did it actually drop a bomb, or did it just fall off?

speaking of... the US Department of Defense Inspector General recently released a report providing a quality assurance assessment of the JSFail F-35 --- just absolutely brutal, scathing findings! Just another reinforcement that, for LockMart, it's subcontractors and the Program Office, Quality is not Job 1!

key findings:

- the F-35 Program did not sufficiently implement or flow down technical and quality management system requirements to prevent the fielding of nonconforming hardware and software. This could adversely affect aircraft performance, reliability, maintainability, and ultimately program cost.

- LockMart/subcontractors did not follow disciplined AS9100 Quality Management System practices, as evidenced by 363 findings, which contained 719 issues.

- the F-35 Program Office did not:

• Ensure that Lockheed Martin and its subcontractors were applying rigor to design, manufacturing, and quality assurance processes.

• Flow down critical safety item requirements.

• Ensure that Lockheed Martin flowed down quality assurance and technical requirements to subcontractors.

• Establish an effective quality assurance organization.

• Ensure that the Defense Contract Management Agency perform adequate quality assurance oversight.

- the Defense Contract Management Agency did not sufficiently perform Government quality assurance oversight of F-35 contractors.

[waldo]

I can't make it any clearer... twice now (that I've observed), you [Derek L] have purposely put up flyaway costs that don't include engines. While doing so you compared those costs to the Harper Conservative and/or KPMG review costs (which included full costs inclusive of engine). This is no trivial "oversight" in that earlier LRIP costs for a F-35 engine were ~$20-$25 million. As I'm aware, it keeps being pointed out that Pratt & Whitney "refuse" to release the current costs for engines for the respective versions. Of course, this play directly into your game/sham since the costs (sans engine) are the only ones available.

in this latest exchange, after I point this out to you, you have the audacity to claim engine costs were within your supplied link..... ya, "go fetch". If you're aware of the engine costs (interesting since I can't find the latest cost anywhere!), why would you put up costs (without engine cost) and presume to compare that back to initial (full cost estimates that included engine cost)? Why?

and... the latest contract with Pratt & Whitney has just been signed... but, as before, P&W refuses to release per unit costs, forcing average cost estimates across the respective variants (although this allotment was ~ 50% F-35A variant engines). Estimates I've read, inclusive of engine costs, retrofit estimates and projections, suggest between $115-$120 million per F-35A. Hey now, that's a fair jog from that Harper Conservative $75 million per figure. Ya think?

[On Guard for Thee]

speaking of... the US Department of Defense Inspector General recently released a report providing a quality assurance assessment of the JSFail F-35 --- just absolutely brutal, scathing findings! Just another reinforcement that, for LockMart, it's subcontractors and the Program Office, Quality is not Job 1!

key findings:

- the F-35 Program did not sufficiently implement or flow down technical and quality management system requirements to prevent the fielding of nonconforming hardware and software. This could adversely affect aircraft performance, reliability, maintainability, and ultimately program cost.

- LockMart/subcontractors did not follow disciplined AS9100 Quality Management System practices, as evidenced by 363 findings, which contained 719 issues.

- the F-35 Program Office did not:

• Ensure that Lockheed Martin and its subcontractors were applying rigor to design, manufacturing, and quality assurance processes.

• Flow down critical safety item requirements.

• Ensure that Lockheed Martin flowed down quality assurance and technical requirements to subcontractors.

• Establish an effective quality assurance organization.

• Ensure that the Defense Contract Management Agency perform adequate quality assurance oversight.

- the Defense Contract Management Agency did not sufficiently perform Government quality assurance oversight of F-35 contractors.

[On Guard for Thee]

speaking of... the US Department of Defense Inspector General recently released a report providing a quality assurance assessment of the JSFail F-35 --- just absolutely brutal, scathing findings! Just another reinforcement that, for LockMart, it's subcontractors and the Program Office, Quality is not Job 1!

key findings:

- the F-35 Program did not sufficiently implement or flow down technical and quality management system requirements to prevent the fielding of nonconforming hardware and software. This could adversely affect aircraft performance, reliability, maintainability, and ultimately program cost.

- LockMart/subcontractors did not follow disciplined AS9100 Quality Management System practices, as evidenced by 363 findings, which contained 719 issues.

- the F-35 Program Office did not:

• Ensure that Lockheed Martin and its subcontractors were applying rigor to design, manufacturing, and quality assurance processes.

• Flow down critical safety item requirements.

• Ensure that Lockheed Martin flowed down quality assurance and technical requirements to subcontractors.

• Establish an effective quality assurance organization.

• Ensure that the Defense Contract Management Agency perform adequate quality assurance oversight.

- the Defense Contract Management Agency did not sufficiently perform Government quality assurance oversight of F-35 contractors.

[On Guard for Thee]

One plane can't do everything well. It's just as simple as if you need a sheet of plywood you take your pickup. If it's the kids off to a party and groceries you take the sedan. If you want to rip along some windy coastal highway you take the Corvette. If you mix and match you get in trouble. Technology has in many ways improved and changed. Aerodynamics hasn't.

[Smallc]

Hey now, that's a fair jog from that Harper Conservative $75 million per figure. Ya think?

Again, that figure does not include the engine. When you do the math, the procurement budget allows $138M per copy with related infrastructure.

[Wilber]

. Technology has in many ways improved and changed. Aerodynamics hasn't.

?

Edited October 26, 2013 by Wilber

[waldo]

Again, that figure does not include the engine. When you do the math, the procurement budget allows $138M per copy with related infrastructure.

I could, quite literally, drop a dozen+ links where Harper Conservatives spoke of the cost as $75M per... total cost per... never qualified to suggest there was an additional cost for.......... engines! What kind of math are you doing, what time frame/context are you offering it in, and how does it correlate back to that original Harper Conservative $75M per costing?

[waldo]

?

that's it... nothing to say about "Quality NOT, NOT... being Job 1"?

[Wilber]

that's it... nothing to say about "Quality NOT, NOT... being Job 1"?

That statement doesn't make any sense. How's that?

[waldo]

That statement doesn't make any sense. How's that?

gee... do you a map drawn for you? That linked US Department of Defense Inspector General report is a scathing indictment on the lack of quality assurance within the JSFail program.

[Smallc]

I could, quite literally, drop a dozen+ links where Harper Conservatives spoke of the cost as $75M per... total cost per... never qualified to suggest there was an additional cost for.......... engines! What kind of math are you doing, what time frame/context are you offering it in, and how does it correlate back to that original Harper Conservative $75M per costing?

The cost per plane will be in the $75 from LM. The engine is not part of the plane as assembled from LM. The total budget per plane is $138M or, $8.9B for acquisition.

[bush_cheney2004]

gee... do you a map drawn for you? That linked US Department of Defense Inspector General report is a scathing indictment on the lack of quality assurance within the JSFail program.

Doesn't matter...Canada is still going to procure the F-35 Lightning II. Quoting American flight hour costs, or American test program failures, or American QA metrics, or American production schedules, or the lack of an American engine in the cost does nothing to change the fact that Canada has few other options....it is not going to build its own "jets" from scratch.

[eyeball]

Doesn't matter...Canada is still going to procure the F-35 Lightning II. Quoting American flight hour costs, or American test program failures, or American QA metrics, or American production schedules, or the lack of an American engine in the cost does nothing to change the fact that Canada has few other options....it is not going to build its own "jets" from scratch.

I guess this explains the Harper Government's new found concern for the premium Canadian consumer's pay for virtually everything, healthcare notwithstanding.

[bush_cheney2004]

I guess this explains the Harper Government's new found concern for the premium Canadian consumer's pay for virtually everything, healthcare notwithstanding.

Canadians pay plenty for healthcare, some of the highest per-capita rates in the world. Why will/should F-35 "jets" be any different ?

[Wilber]

gee... do you a map drawn for you? That linked US Department of Defense Inspector General report is a scathing indictment on the lack of quality assurance within the JSFail program.

Gee... if you read my post you would realize that it wasn't your post, there was no link and it wasn't your quote I was responding to.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Wilber

[waldo]

The cost per plane will be in the $75 from LM. The engine is not part of the plane as assembled from LM. The total budget per plane is $138M or, $8.9B for acquisition.

oh... you've spoken! You absolutely know that $75M per plane figure will be realized... you just know it! No where in those Harper Conservative $75M per plane costs was there ever any distinction offered between LockMart and contractors... no where was there any suggestion that additional (engine) costs were "over and above". You could show that... or you could just continue to state your unqualified and unsubstantiated opinion.

[Guest Derek L]

Doesn't matter...Canada is still going to procure the F-35 Lightning II. Quoting American flight hour costs, or American test program failures, or American QA metrics, or American production schedules, or the lack of an American engine in the cost does nothing to change the fact that Canada has few other options....it is not going to build its own "jets" from scratch.

Of course the Canadians at the P&W facility in Longueil Quebec, a suburb of Montreal and within a Federal NDP riding, will be celebrating continued and sustained employment for decades to come