Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Will Canada pay the development costs....alone ? Canada won't buy the Typhoon, it's too expensive. I was simply speaking on a theoretical tangent. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 and too inexpensive for us. I was with you until that point. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Which has absolutely - zero - to do with fighter sales. That, and said manufacturers all receive subsidies from their own governments. Sure it does.........Boeing and Airbus value their own airline sales far more than a small fighter order with the GoC.........The Government of the United States and France aren't in the airline business. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 I'm not going to rehash the debate with you.........Saab clearly pulled it's own Gripen NG from the Canadian competition because it too well suited and too inexpensive for us. In other words, you've made up your mind and won't look at information that doesn't support your foregone conclusion. Which seems to be exactly the attitude that created the F35 debacle in the first place. The Americans appear to have a strategy that sees their subservient allies subsidize their industry by buying overpriced, underperforming bomb trucks to support their 3rd world incursions. All the while, they save the air superiority planes for themselves. I would prefer that Canada pursued an independent defence policy. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 It could be, that's my point. Well it's not, hence the Typhoon isn't better than the F-15 armed with them. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Canada won't buy the Typhoon, it's too expensive. I was simply speaking on a theoretical tangent. It's not more expensive than the butterball. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Canada won't buy the Typhoon, it's too expensive. I was simply speaking on a theoretical tangent. Well, I wasn't. Canada has consistently refused to pay the piper for such development or has bailed from such contracts to meet its "special needs" Analysis paralysis..... Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
ReeferMadness Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 I'm not an expert, I just read a lot. That doesn't mean I'm always right. I was going to add this to the discussion: http://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Rafale-com-2-tanques-2000-l-2-tanques-1250-l-e-casulo-Buddy-Buddy.jpg http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--mr28n2iU--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/s4r6l9pjahrhxztgvjvk.jpg This is something that the Super Hornet and Rafale can do. Useful in Canada's north, I would think. Air to air refuelling? The gripen can do that as well. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 In other words, you've made up your mind and won't look at information that doesn't support your foregone conclusion. Which seems to be exactly the attitude that created the F35 debacle in the first place. I've provided page, after page, of information in the several other F-35 threads, I'm not going to provide it, yet again, for you. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Well, I wasn't. Canada has consistently refused to pay the piper for such development or has bailed from such contracts to meet its "special needs" Analysis paralysis..... Awwww - worried about your shares in Lockheed Martin? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Sure it does.........Boeing and Airbus value their own airline sales far more than a small fighter order with the GoC.........The Government of the United States and France aren't in the airline business. Boeing and Airbus get subsidies in different forms all of the time. You yourself called the Rafale a subsidy for Dassault. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Air to air refuelling? The gripen can do that as well. Has it ever been used in the buddy refuelling configuration? Quote
ReeferMadness Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Has it ever been used in the buddy refuelling configuration? I don't know why I provide these links. Clearly, everyone here has already made up their minds and nobody reads them. How about the aerial refuelling? The Gripen utilizes a "probe-and-drogue" system as currently used by Canada's current CF-18, along with a great deal of NATO allies, including the U.S. Navy. Although the older Sweden only A and B models had no inflight refuelling, the newer C and D models along with the "Next Generation" E and F models use the system. They should have no problems refuelling mid-air from a RCAF CC-150 Polaris or even a CC-130 Hercules equipped with refuelling pods. Just like the current CF-18 currently does. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Boeing and Airbus get subsidies in different forms all of the time. You yourself called the Rafale a subsidy for Dassault. Then you better go represent the GoC at the WTO......they tried that argument against Embraer in the 90s. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 I don't know why I provide these links. Clearly, everyone here has already made up their minds and nobody reads them. I know it can be refuelled in the air - I'm not disputing that. The Rafale and Super Hornet can become AAR aircraft themselves. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 I don't know why I provide these links. Clearly, everyone here has already made up their minds and nobody reads them. And for the record, I haven't made up my mind. It doesn't really much matter, for our uses, what we get, so long as it is a competitive aircraft. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Then you better go represent the GoC at the WTO......they tried that argument against Embraer in the 90s. There isn't a dispute yet. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 I know it can be refuelled in the air - I'm not disputing that. The Rafale and Super Hornet can become AAR aircraft themselves. Sounds handy but is that enough of a reason to make a decision? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Sounds handy but is that enough of a reason to make a decision? Well, look at it from this angle - when a threat to Canadian airspace is detected, 2 CF-18s are launched, with 2 others launched soon after, or kept in reserve, depending on the distance. If one of each pair was equipped for AAR, with a full fuel load, while still having a small armament, they could go direct to the site without having to stop to refuel. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 There isn't a dispute yet. There is currently two disputes, to be paid in two $500 million lump sums by the Province of Quebec. Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 There is currently two disputes, to be paid in two $500 million lump sums by the Province of Quebec. If Quebec is willing to do it, that's their problem. That won't stop Boeing from selling things to the Government of Canada. It certainly won't stop Dassault. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Well, look at it from this angle - when a threat to Canadian airspace is detected, 2 CF-18s are launched, with 2 others launched soon after, or kept in reserve, depending on the distance. If one of each pair was equipped for AAR, with a full fuel load, while still having a small armament, they could go direct to the site without having to stop to refuel. Again, it sounds handy. Has the airforce deemed it a requirement? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Smallc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Again, it sounds handy. Has the airforce deemed it a requirement? No - the airforce is set on getting the F-35, which has no such capability. In fact, though it has a massive range on internal fuel, the F-35 can currently carry nothing for external fuel. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Well, look at it from this angle - when a threat to Canadian airspace is detected, 2 CF-18s are launched, with 2 others launched soon after, or kept in reserve, depending on the distance. If one of each pair was equipped for AAR, with a full fuel load, while still having a small armament, they could go direct to the site without having to stop to refuel. Doesn't work that way, and is why land based air forces don't use buddy-stores......and of course, maritime users of the F-35 will also have use of buddy stores, both external and internal (stealth) systems. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 If Quebec is willing to do it, that's their problem. That won't stop Boeing from selling things to the Government of Canada. It certainly won't stop Dassault. The Government of Canada will represent Quebec at the WTO......Dassault is partly owned by Airbus, and both the American and French Governments, as said, have much more to loose in regional airline sales then a small fighter order to Canada. Quote
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