F-35 Purchase Cancelled; CF-18 replacement process begins

[On Guard for Thee]

No he didn't, and is supported in his statement by Canadian industry........

Are you suggesting the Canadian aerospace industries fears over far larger future contracts are not valid? As noted in your link, Kendall is only speaking to present existing contracts.

Yeah I heard the scrum with Harper and so I know what he said. Not sure if he just wasn't aware, or just another desperate attempt to poke at JT, but in any case it backfired.

[On Guard for Thee]

It seems that on a fairly regular basis, more information surfaces with regard to shortcomings of the F 35 "bomb truck" to suggest voting for "anybody but Harper", who still seems to support the project in light of that mounting information, is a good idea.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/everyone-who-wanted-more-f-22s-is-being-proven-right-1732105884

[Maybe]

Our Defense Minister did the best thing under the circumstances. Why buy problems waiting to happen?

[waldo]

Existing contracts, he speaks nothing of far larger future contracts, as addressed by the Canadian joint industry group.

no! Kendall explicitly states: "I don't see any reason why they would not continue to be part of the team whether Canada buys jets or not"... Canada didn't buy any jets... or sign a binding contract to do so... and yet won contracts. Not buying jets doesn't mean Canada doesn't stay a part "of the JSF team"! I mean, c'mon... few JSF partner countries have actually bought... contractually bought/money exchanged... F-35 jets... and they're all still part "of the team"! You know, the point you keep playing on: that, "nobody's left"... (they're just not buying)!

[waldo]

The current price in 2015 FY USD, for a pre-production F-35A: $129.06 million including non-recurring (flyaway cost) in FY 2015

Now the Super Hornet, which is winding down production, per the most recent contract to the Kuwaiti air force: $3 billion / 28 aircraft = ~$107 million per aircraft.............

for such an "insider", I'm shocked you don't actually know what Kuwait bought! It's also quite telling that you're quite accepting to your own provided website's price quote on the F-35A, yet you conveniently ignore what it costs out the Super Hornet at: In FY 2013, the unit cost of an F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is $65.3 million (flyaway cost). It's also quite telling that you're purposely focusing in on the Super Hornet and ignoring the development of the Advanced Super Hornet (ASH). As I related in an earlier post:

per, 'Mike Gibbons - vice president of F/A-18 & EA-18 Programs for Boeing Military Aircraft: "A complete Super Hornet [F/A-18E/F], with engine and electronic warfare gear, currently costs about $51 million... a fully equipped Growler [EA-18G] costs about $60 million)"... he's also offered comment that the "Advanced Super Hornet" upgrade, would add ~10% additional costs to that of the existing Super Hornet costs. A googly with 'Mike Gibbons, Super Hornet costs' will bring forward many article references stating these/like figures... one of those being a CBC article from early 2013.

your own website source speaks to pricing as: F-35A - $129 million // Super Hornet: $65 million (2013). The Boeing rep is quoted as stating the current price for a Super Hornet is ~$51 million... with the Advanced Super Hornet 10% above that. It's also quite humourous to read you pumping the LockMart projection figures based on little to no significant sales to-date (notwithstanding the rather smallish component being added by the U.S. military per each successive LRIP):

as for your miss on Kuwait... Kuwait actually bought Eurofighter Typhoons... 28 of them (with no costs disclosed to-date, as I'm aware): Kuwait agrees purchase of Eurofighter Typhoons - with an assortment of articles out there that suggest Kuwait still has intentions to also add the Super Hornet into their mix of new purchases.

[Derek 2.0]

for such an "insider", I'm shocked you don't actually know what Kuwait bought! It's also quite telling that you're quite accepting to your own provided website's price quote on the F-35A, yet you conveniently ignore what it costs out the Super Hornet at: In FY 2013, the unit cost of an F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is $65.3 million (flyaway cost). It's also quite telling that you're purposely focusing in on the Super Hornet and ignoring the development of the Advanced Super Hornet (ASH). As I related in an earlier post:

per, 'Mike Gibbons - vice president of F/A-18 & EA-18 Programs for Boeing Military Aircraft: "A complete Super Hornet [F/A-18E/F], with engine and electronic warfare gear, currently costs about $51 million... a fully equipped Growler [EA-18G] costs about $60 million)"... he's also offered comment that the "Advanced Super Hornet" upgrade, would add ~10% additional costs to that of the existing Super Hornet costs. A googly with 'Mike Gibbons, Super Hornet costs' will bring forward many article references stating these/like figures... one of those being a CBC article from early 2013.

I'm actually surprised that they bought the Eurofighter, they walked away from low-mileage surplus RAF aircraft deal earlier this year, than went the Boeing route.

Of course, you're stating the Super Hornet price as of 2012 (fy 2013 starts October 1st 2012), when the Super Hornet was still in full production, producing aircraft for both the USN and RAAF........as indicated in the 2016 fy budget request (cited several pages back), there is no funds requested for any Super Hornet/Growler for DoD next year......that means, as I stated, once the current orders are complete, the production line is closed.

your own website source speaks to pricing as: F-35A - $129 million // Super Hornet: $65 million (2013). The Boeing rep is quoted as stating the current price for a Super Hornet is ~$51 million... with the Advanced Super Hornet 10% above that. It's also quite humourous to read you pumping the LockMart projection figures based on little to no significant sales to-date (notwithstanding the rather smallish component being added by the U.S. military per each successive LRIP):

Boeing won't be offering wholesale DoD prices with no forth coming orders........You speak to F-35 sales, LRIP 9 & 10 (~150+ aircraft) negotiations are underway right now, to be concluded later this year, said runs will include international orders.

as for your miss on Kuwait... Kuwait actually bought Eurofighter Typhoons... 28 of them (with no costs disclosed to-date, as I'm aware): Kuwait agrees purchase of Eurofighter Typhoons - with an assortment of articles out there that suggest Kuwait still has intentions to also add the Super Hornet into their mix of new purchases.

Here are the costs:

Kuwait has agreed a memorandum of understanding to buy up to €8bn worth of Eurofighter Typhoon jets — a deal that, if eventually signed, would deliver a boost to Italy’s Finmeccanica, the UK’s BAE Systems andAirbus, which together produce the military aircraft.

For a total of:

Kuwait’s tentative deal for 28 aircraft highlights the drive by Gulf states to boost their defences in light of growing security threats in the region, including the rise of the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (Isis).

The MoU still needs to be translated into a finalised contract in the coming weeks, leaving some margin of uncertainty around the sale, said one person familiar with the situation.

An industry executive warned that while Kuwait had signalled a strong intention to purchase the Eurofighter jets, the deal has not yet been finalised. Kuwait has also been considering other fighter aircraft, including Dassault’s Rafale and Boeing’s F-18.

$8 billion Euros is ~$9 billion USD for 28 aircraft.....I would assume, for such a blistering amount, said figure will include contractor provided training, maintenance and support, aligned with our purchase of 65 F-35s for ~$15 billion........As stated countless times, the Eurofighter is not a cheap aircraft.

If the Eurofighter deal does go through, replacing their ~30 odd legacy Hornets, I doubt they would purchase further aircraft devoid a major expansion of their air force........I would still question if this is a horsetrading trick aimed at Boeing/DoD to get a better deal on Super Hornets.

[Derek 2.0]

no! Kendall explicitly states: "I don't see any reason why they would not continue to be part of the team whether Canada buys jets or not"... Canada didn't buy any jets... or sign a binding contract to do so... and yet won contracts. Not buying jets doesn't mean Canada doesn't stay a part "of the JSF team"! I mean, c'mon... few JSF partner countries have actually bought... contractually bought/money exchanged... F-35 jets... and they're all still part "of the team"! You know, the point you keep playing on: that, "nobody's left"... (they're just not buying)!

Current contracts, he doesn't speak to additional future production (see larger) contracts over the lifespan of the program...............with that said, it wouldn't beggar belief if Canadian industry was aloud to still bid on the Lockheed F-35 program, if we purchased "cheaper" Lockheed block 60 F-16s, a combination of the two, or in concert with a Lockheed systems/weapons integration for the navies new frigates and destroyers.

As noted, pure speculation on my part.

[waldo]

Boeing won't be offering wholesale DoD prices with no forth coming orders........You speak to F-35 sales, LRIP 9 & 10 (~150+ aircraft) negotiations are underway right now, to be concluded later this year, said runs will include international orders.

your conjecture is noted! As always, I defer to your LockMart propaganda! Of course, this doesn't stop you from relying upon those same LockMart costs that associate with the U.S. military... and reflect upon that Tier1 partner positioning the U.S. holds and the pricing advantage the U.S./UK would garner in that regard. Considering Canada is but a Tier3 partner, you sure seem quite certain Canada would receive the same pricing as Tier1 (or even Tier2) JSF partner countries, hey!

Here are the costs:

$8 billion Euros is ~$9 billion USD for 28 aircraft.....I would assume, for such a blistering amount, said figure will include contractor provided training, maintenance and support, aligned with our purchase of 65 F-35s for ~$15 billion........As stated countless times, the Eurofighter is not a cheap aircraft.

yes, you would assume! Yes, @ the understood pricing of $140 million per, the Eurofighter Typhoon is pricier. But it begs the question why Saudi Arabia is closing in on completing the contract associated with the second trance (40 Typhoon jets) of an earlier purchase. Notwithstanding this years earlier purchase by Qatar of 36 Rafale's from France... of Egypt's purchase of 24 Rafale's. Apparently, these countries aren't prepared to take the gamble on the much over-hyped, over-priced, under-delivered F-35! Go figure, hey!

.

[waldo]

Current contracts, he doesn't speak to additional future production (see larger) contracts over the lifespan of the program...............with that said, it wouldn't beggar belief if Canadian industry was aloud to still bid on the Lockheed F-35 program, if we purchased "cheaper" Lockheed block 60 F-16s, a combination of the two, or in concert with a Lockheed systems/weapons integration for the navies new frigates and destroyers.

As noted, pure speculation on my part.

you're reading what you want from that Kendall statement. As a JSF partner country, why wouldn't Canada be eligible to bid on... and secure... future contracts, with or without purchases made? When signing on Canada (and other countries) didn't make... didn't have to make... formal commitments to buy the F-35. As you're well aware, it was simply a means to be privy to LockMart/program information.

it is quite timely you mention that F-16! Considering this result against the F-16: Read for Yourself — The F-35's Damning Dogfighting Report. The scrambling from LockMart and the U.S. military has been real gold as they come forward to openly state "dogfighting" isn't the F-35 "forte"... that it wasn't intended to replace the F-16! Which reminds me of an earlier reference I put forward that had a top U.S. military official admit the F-35 would rely upon the F-22... you really didn't like that article/reference, did you! How many countries, other than the U.S., have F22's? Yup... Canada will certainly be well served to purchase, for Canadian purposes, that F-35 "bomb truck"!

[PIK]

Have any of our F-18;s ever been in a dog fight and how many times have they been used as bombers?

[waldo]

Have any of our F-18;s ever been in a dog fight and how many times have they been used as bombers?

oh pleeeese member PIK! Where do you think that term of endearment "bomb truck" originates? Perhaps you need to recognize just how Canada has been deploying the Hornet the last decade+... ya think!

[segnosaur]

your conjecture is noted! As always, I defer to your LockMart propaganda!

.

Always find it strange that people complaining about the F35 would chant "LockMart Propaganda", considering most of the anti-F35 information comes from either: Boeing (who is trying to hype the F18), various anti-military blogs, and other similar suspect sources.

Of course, this doesn't stop you from relying upon those same LockMart costs that associate with the U.S. military... and reflect upon that Tier1 partner positioning the U.S. holds and the pricing advantage the U.S./UK would garner in that regard. Considering Canada is but a Tier3 partner, you sure seem quite certain Canada would receive the same pricing as Tier1 (or even Tier2) JSF partner countries, hey!

We can already get an idea of what the costs will be by looking at other non-Tier 1 purchasers and comparing how much they paid for their planes and how much the U.S. will pay.

Any difference (if it exists) will still make the F35 cheaper than most competitors.

yes, you would assume! Yes, @ the understood pricing of $140 million per, the Eurofighter Typhoon is pricier. But it begs the question why Saudi Arabia is closing in on completing the contract associated with the second trance (40 Typhoon jets) of an earlier purchase. Notwithstanding this years earlier purchase by Qatar of 36 Rafale's from France... of Egypt's purchase of 24 Rafale's. Apparently, these countries aren't prepared to take the gamble on the much over-hyped, over-priced, under-delivered F-35! Go figure, hey!

There are multiple reasons why other countries might select planes other than the F35...

Saudi Arabia may have made additional purchases of the Eurofighter because they were already flying some in their airforce (purchased before the F35 was available) and it is probably easier to minimize the number of different jets in their air force.

There are other reasons countries may go with the Rafale or Eurofighter... a decline in the Euro with respect to the U.S. dollar, anti-American attitudes, or a need for the plane immediately (since the F35 is only currently ramping up production and will take a while before they are producing enough craft to fill all orders).

Overall, I find it almost amusing how people will look at the occasional Rafale or Eurofighter purchase, jump up and down with glee and say "look how great these planes are". Right now, those planes are being flown (or have orders by) 7 or 8 countries. On the other hand, the countries that have either purchased the F35 or have otherwise selected it as a fighter include: U.S., UK, Italy, Netherlands, Australia, Norway, Turkey, and Israel. And that's for a plane that hasn't even entered into full production. That's more than the number of countries that are flying the Rafale or Eurofighter.

As a JSF partner country, why wouldn't Canada be eligible to bid on... and secure... future contracts, with or without purchases made?

Canada would certainly be eligible to bid on future contracts. But it gives us infinitely more influence if we are also purchasing new jets. It can be made a condition of any purchase.

t is quite timely you mention that F-16! Considering this result against the F-16: Read for Yourself — The F-35's Damning Dogfighting Report.

Oh god, that non-sense again.

How many times does this have to be explained?

- The plane that was tested was not the final version. It was missing certain critical pieces (like the software to properly control weapons).

- It was not a 'dogfight'... it was a flight test used to adjust the controls of the F35. A dogfight suggests both planes were attempting to win. The terms of the test were not to play up the strengths of the F35. Its like tying Mike Tyson's hands behind his back, and then saying he was a bad boxer because he couldn't beat his opponent.

- The F16 has been around for decades. The pilot likely had >1000 hours flight time in the F16. F35 is a new plane. Its pilot probably had ~100 hours of flight time in the F35. So, a highly experienced pilot beat a guy who was relatively new to his plane

http://fightersweep.com/2548/f-35-v-f-16-article-garbage/

[waldo]

Always find it strange that people complaining about the F35 would chant "LockMart Propaganda", considering most of the anti-F35 information comes from either: Boeing (who is trying to hype the F18), various anti-military blogs, and other similar suspect sources.

in the face of, just for one example, those past blistering U.S. GAO reports critical of the F-35... yes, LockMart data/information has most certainly been propaganda solely intended to pump-up the failed F-35 - again, over-hyped, over-priced and under-delivered.

We can already get an idea of what the costs will be by looking at other non-Tier 1 purchasers and comparing how much they paid for their planes and how much the U.S. will pay.

Any difference (if it exists) will still make the F35 cheaper than most competitors.

... On the other hand, the countries that have either purchased the F35 or have otherwise selected it as a fighter include: U.S., UK, Italy, Netherlands, Australia, Norway, Turkey, and Israel. And that's for a plane that hasn't even entered into full production. That's more than the number of countries that are flying the Rafale or Eurofighter.

oh really... you mean those "onesy - twosey" buys/deliveries? Have those even been price-quoted... anywhere? Don't hesitate to come forward with a reference to signed contracts that actually speak directly, definitively and absolutely to the costs of the F-35 for non-Tier1 countries? How long should we wait for you?

.

There are multiple reasons why other countries might select planes other than the F35... Overall, I find it almost amusing...

sure there might be... but in the face of the past posting history of member D2.0, even the slightest "rumour" of a potential F-35 sale was posted as a testament to the prowess of the F-35 - regardless of what LRIP iteration was current! Real sales of alternate F-35 jet purchases continue... on all fronts! As you say, "overall, I find it almost amusing" that to proponents of the F-35, any non-F35 purchase is simply dispatched as a trivial nothingness and doesn't at all reflect upon the long history of the LockMart failure to deliver... on cost, on function, on capability, on time!

it sure would be interesting to read just where... and just when... you interpret that much ballyhooed 2800-3000 F-35 jet purchase number will come to fruition! I mean, after all... that's what all the LockMart cost projections are based upon, right?

Canada would certainly be eligible to bid on future contracts. But it gives us infinitely more influence if we are also purchasing new jets. It can be made a condition of any purchase.

a condition of purchase? Oh my... doesn't that go against the original JSF partnership agreement? Are you sure? Would that even be legal in terms of "bid fixing"?

.

Oh god, that non-sense again.

How many times does this have to be explained?

standard response to anything critical of the F-35. It would be most helpful if you could present "on record" comment/information from the highest U.S. military sources that speaks, with authority and precise/detailed language, to both the current capabilities of the F-35 and how it is expected to be deployed "in combat"... waiting. In turn, don't hesitate to translate that into just how Canada would presume to utilize/deploy it's purchased F-35s - waiting...

Edited September 29, 2015 by waldo

[On Guard for Thee]

Looks like thy may have jumped the "bomb truck".

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/everyone-who-wanted-more-f-22s-is-being-proven-right-1732105884

[Derek 2.0]

your conjecture is noted! As always, I defer to your LockMart propaganda! Of course, this doesn't stop you from relying upon those same LockMart costs that associate with the U.S. military... and reflect upon that Tier1 partner positioning the U.S. holds and the pricing advantage the U.S./UK would garner in that regard. Considering Canada is but a Tier3 partner, you sure seem quite certain Canada would receive the same pricing as Tier1 (or even Tier2) JSF partner countries, hey!.

As stated countless times, the partnership level has no barring on final purchase price, as its a reflection of a partners commitment in the development phase, and in turn, the allowance to bid on a greater percentage of F-35 work. Direct sales, as already evident, to partner nations are being treated as Foreign Military Sales, in that purchases by partners are included in a DoD block buy, affording economy of scales to all end users........Canada, like the other partners, has already paid our development dues in full.

yes, you would assume! Yes, @ the understood pricing of $140 million per, the Eurofighter Typhoon is pricier. But it begs the question why Saudi Arabia is closing in on completing the contract associated with the second trance (40 Typhoon jets) of an earlier purchase. Notwithstanding this years earlier purchase by Qatar of 36 Rafale's from France... of Egypt's purchase of 24 Rafale's. Apparently, these countries aren't prepared to take the gamble on the much over-hyped, over-priced, under-delivered F-35! Go figure, hey!

The US Government isn't allowing the technology transfer/sale of the F-35 to certain nations, not only Arab states, but others like India and Brazil, which all have had various size fighter procurement programs. In such programs, US makers (Boeing & Lockheed) have been offering cheaper upgraded legacy types (Super Hornet & F-16 Falcon) against the several "newer" European aircraft (Eurofighter, Rafale and Gripen NG)......of note, in the vast majority of cases, the cheaper American types have have lost out.

[Derek 2.0]

you're reading what you want from that Kendall statement. As a JSF partner country, why wouldn't Canada be eligible to bid on... and secure... future contracts, with or without purchases made? When signing on Canada (and other countries) didn't make... didn't have to make... formal commitments to buy the F-35. As you're well aware, it was simply a means to be privy to LockMart/program information.

Of course we’d retain current contracts, as Lockheed cancelling them now would certainly delay the program months, if not years, seeking a replacement manufacturer. Likewise, in the case of Canadian subsidiaries like Pratt & Whitney Canada, producing portions of the F135 engine in Quebec, they would have to alter their production lines, which I doubt would make fiscal sense for a given company.

As to the far larger production bids, simple, contractual fairness, or better put, skin in the game…….If an Italian or Australian company is in competition with a Canadian company for a given contract, it’s obvious that the nation that is purchasing the aircraft will get first crack.

it is quite timely you mention that F-16! Considering this result against the F-16: Read for Yourself — The F-35's Damning Dogfighting Report. The scrambling from LockMart and the U.S. military has been real gold as they come forward to openly state "dogfighting" isn't the F-35 "forte"... that it wasn't intended to replace the F-16! Which reminds me of an earlier reference I put forward that had a top U.S. military official admit the F-35 would rely upon the F-22... you really didn't like that article/reference, did you! How many countries, other than the U.S., have F22's? Yup... Canada will certainly be well served to purchase, for Canadian purposes, that F-35 "bomb truck"!

Said report, with actual context, has been done to death in this thread months ago……..As stated, said series of test flights was to calibrate the F-35’s avionics, namely flight safety systems, in real world conditions against a maneuverable known quantity in the F-16. As also mentioned, the F-16s were in “air show” configuration, meaning no weapons or fuel tanks under the wing (a condition that wouldn’t effect an F-35’s flight performance with a similar loadout carried internally).

My mention of the F-16, was solely to meet Trudeau’s stated desire of an “open and fair competition” of aircraft that are not the F-35, and are cheaper than the F-35. Since his intent precludes the F-35, F-15, Eurofighter, Gripen NG and Rafale, that leaves the Super Hornet and F-16 Falcon. Then it becomes risk mitigation, the Super-duper F-16 development has already been funded (By Lockheed and UAE) and its in service (currently bombing ISIS) and the Super-duper Hornet is not, as Boeing has not funded the full development and is/was waiting for a launch partner (none forthcoming).

The F-22, despite the blog entry, will never be brought back in production, for the simple fact that its avionics/computer processing speed (~20-30 MHz) is of a bygone era, and is just as likely to be reproduced as a 386 computer.

[Big Guy]

Looks like this issue will continue for a while:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/scrapping-f-35-fighter-jets-may-not-lead-to-big-savings-experts-say/article27012886/

Now some "experts" feel the cancellation will not save any money.

The Liberals promised during the election campaign to look elsewhere for a plane and plow the savings into more ships for the Royal Canadian Navy. But military experts say different aircraft might not be a bargain when the costs of buying, operating and maintaining them over 20 to 30 years are tallied up.

[waldo]

the re-evaluation starts with a proper analysis of the jet required to meet Canada's needs/requirements... as in formally defining those needs, particularly as relates to 'first strike', stealth, etc.. The linked article is weak on specifics from the generically labelled "defense experts". Depending on the plane chosen, for example, hourly operating costs are most significant... as I've just reconfirmed, the current per-hour operating cost for the F-35 still stands at $32,000 (U.S.) per hour; the grouping of leading/alternate jet options operate at half... to even a quarter of that cost per hour.

[segnosaur]

Re: F35

The Liberals promised during the election campaign to look elsewhere for a plane and plow the savings into more ships for the Royal Canadian Navy. But military experts say different aircraft might not be a bargain when the costs of buying, operating and maintaining them over 20 to 30 years are tallied up.

Well, duh. Stevie Wonder could have seen that the Liberal plan would not have worked.

Fighter planes are expensive. Several alternatives to the F35 are more expensive (e.g. Eurofighter Typhoon, Gripen and Rafale have been costing >$100 million, while the F35A costs have been dropping below $100 as it enters production.) The only alternative that might be considered cheaper is the F18E/F... but even though its "flyaway" cost is ~65million, when you add basic support the cost is ~81 million/plane. And the price will be even higher if they decide to go with the 'advanced Super Hornet'. The F35A should cost ~80-90 million/plane by the time Canada is ready to purchase.

So, at most the cost difference would be enough to buy roughly one frigate. And that's assuming they buy 65 planes (rather than ordering more). And more importantly, that's just upfront costs, and doesn't include any additional costs of supporting an orphan plane like the F18 if/when it goes out of production.

Much like many liberal policies, the ones regarding defence were either poorly thought out, or a cynical attempt to play politics with the Canadian military.

[waldo]

...while the F35A costs have been dropping below $100 as it enters production.) The F35A should cost ~80-90 million/plane by the time Canada is ready to purchase.

source/cite? ... one other than LockMart propaganda?

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, duh. Stevie Wonder could have seen that the Liberal plan would not have worked.

...Much like many liberal policies, the ones regarding defence were either poorly thought out, or a cynical attempt to play politics with the Canadian military.

One would expect nothing less from a Liberal government. Their legacy of "savings" is great.

[waldo]

One would expect nothing less from a Liberal government. Their legacy of "savings" is great.

hint: Liberal/liberal in Canada does not have the same meaning/attachment as in the U.S.! We could always look at those U.S. military procurement boondoggles... there's certainly no shortage of those, hey! And they're huuuuuge! Do the Democrats or Republicans carry the bulk of that boondoggle weight?

[The_Squid]

I'm glad this albatross has been released from taxpayer's necks....

An open-source contract bid is the way to go. What kind of fiscal conservative wants a sole-source contract for billions of dollars without looking at alternatives? It isn't the jets themselves I would object to, it's the process for purchasing them that was a disaster.

Will Trudeau fix that issue? Who knows... but criticizing before he even becomes PM is rather ludicrous... "partisan hackery", one might say...

[Derek 2.0]

the re-evaluation starts with a proper analysis of the jet required to meet Canada's needs/requirements... as in formally defining those needs, particularly as relates to 'first strike', stealth, etc.. The linked article is weak on specifics from the generically labelled "defense experts". Depending on the plane chosen, for example, hourly operating costs are most significant... as I've just reconfirmed, the current per-hour operating cost for the F-35 still stands at $32,000 (U.S.) per hour; the grouping of leading/alternate jet options operate at half... to even a quarter of that cost per hour.

Again that is a false dichotomy, as you’re comparing American hourly operating costs. Currently the USAF (and various ANG units) operate over 1000 F-16s, likewise the USN/USMC operate over 500 legacy Hornets (like ours), versus the ~100+ various F-35s currently in service in the USAF/USN/USMC. As such, said average is determined by dividing operating costs spread across various fleet sizes, hence the F-35 does currently have a sustainably higher hourly cost.

For Canada, by sheer numbers, our Hornets using the same calculation currently have a higher average operating cost than USMC Hornets of the same vintage, inversely, 65 Canadian F-35s would have a higher average operating cost than our current ~77 Hornets based on fleet size alone. With that said, any aircraft with a single engine will have a lower maintenance cost than an aircraft with two engines, that is simple and obvious mathematics.

As to the Liberal brandished “first strike” moniker, that too is a inane determination……as our current vintage Hornets, likewise current in service Super Hornets, Eurofighters and Rafales have all been used historically for “first strike” (and second and third strike etc) missions. Clearly the decision to “first strike” an enemy is a political determination. As such, one is left to assume the Trudeau Liberals real intent as being an aircraft less capable, and in turn, with the preclusion of stealth etc afforded by the F-35, less survivable going forward.

[Derek 2.0]

I'm glad this albatross has been released from taxpayer's necks....

An open-source contract bid is the way to go. What kind of fiscal conservative wants a sole-source contract for billions of dollars without looking at alternatives? It isn't the jets themselves I would object to, it's the process for purchasing them that was a disaster.

Will Trudeau fix that issue? Who knows... but criticizing before he even becomes PM is rather ludicrous... "partisan hackery", one might say...

How does one have an "open-source contract bid" by precluding aircraft by name prior?

Personally, I would be highly surprised if any aircraft is selected prior to the next election.......at such a time, the only aircraft that will be in production will be the F-35.....