Israel-Palestine 101

[WIP]

Speaking of Harper, and his constant genuflecting to U.S. policy interests, I wonder if this story has been mentioned in anyone of the umpteen number of Israel/Palestine threads so far:

Nearly half of Canadians polled would prefer the federal government be neutral when it comes to Israel and the Palestinian Territories, a new poll suggests.

According to the CBC/Nanos survey, 48 per cent of people asked how the government should handle Middle East foreign policy said they want the government to favour neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians.

Another 27 per cent said they are unsure.

Of those who had a preference, 19 per cent said they want the government to favour the Israelis, with six per cent wanting the government to favour the Palestinians — a three-to-one ratio.

Nik Nanos, president of Nanos Research, says Canadians likely prefer a Middle East foreign policy that "treads the middle path."

"For those that do have a preference, they're more likely to favour the Israelis over the Palestinians, but it's still a minority at only 19 per cent," Nanos said.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/12/06/pol-nanos-foreign-policy.html

If we were going by all of the sqawkboxes here and saturating the rest of online media, you would think that the Bibi-followers were the majority, or at least common opinion. Now, we know that at least half of Canadians want our government to remain neutral and these Zionists...whatever their motivating causes, are a clear minority in Canada! Maybe Harper thinks we have churches full of Christian Zionists, like in the U.S.. But I doubt that's the case outside of Alberta!

[bush_cheney2004]

If we were going by all of the sqawkboxes here and saturating the rest of online media, you would think that the Bibi-followers were the majority, or at least common opinion. Now, we know that at least half of Canadians want our government to remain neutral and these Zionists...

Why just neutral? How can they not support the poor and oppressed (rocket launching) Palestinians? This survey result is not a ringing endorsement for the Palestinian cause, leaving the status quo in place.

whatever their motivating causes, are a clear minority in Canada! Maybe Harper thinks we have churches full of Christian Zionists, like in the U.S.. But I doubt that's the case outside of Alberta!

Harper knows you have churches full of people who don't support terrorists.

Edited December 7, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[WIP]

More recent than that, PM Martin invaded and deposed the democratically elected president of Haiti in 2004, alongside France and the USA. The operation was organized in Montreal.

My sense of nationalism has never matched people like you, who just go berserk if someone criticizes their country's policies. And, in case you have noticed over many posts, I used to consider our Government - whether under Liberal or P.C. administrations, to be on the right side of most foreign policy issues....but, I sure as hell can't say that any more! And it's not just our Government that's giving Canada a black name in the world these days. It's even further off topic, but take a look at what Canadian mining companies are doing in Latin America these days. Their actions are worse than many of the U.S.-based companies.

[Guest American Woman]

Where is his lie in the opening post?

I understand that you disagree with his assessment...but that's hardly grounds for accusations of lying.

Obviously I wasn't speaking of this thread - since Hudson didn't start it. Furthermore, if you aren't aware of what I'm referring to, perhaps you should have left it at "where is his lie...?" Your conclusion that I'm accusing him of leaving lies in what he posts based on nothing but a disagreement of his assessment is totally off base. He did leave lies and propaganda in the opening post I am referring to; that's a proven fact.

DogOnPorch provided the links regarding the lies and deceit that remain in the post - even after I provided proof of the lie that Hudson himself accepted. Would you not go back and edit such a post? Or would you knowingly leave lies and propaganda in what you've posted? I would hope that I am correct in my belief that you would have the integrity to edit your post.

Edited December 7, 2012 by American Woman

[WIP]

Why just neutral? How can they not support the poor and oppressed (rocket launching) Palestinians? This survey result is not a ringing endorsement for the Palestinian cause, leaving the status quo in place.

And, supporting a neutral policy on this forum is assumed to be taking sides with the Palies. My support for the Palestinians only goes as far as they are the ones who've been forced off their land, are impoverished and facing U.S.- financed military power in the region. Palestinians could have made deals early on too....at least with some of the Labor Governments....with the exception of Golda Meir....who would not even recognize the Palestinians right to exist as a people...let alone as an independent state! She was yet another example of how the few women who rise to the top in male-dominated societies, go overboard in their displays of aggression and vitriol, and try to act more manly than any man available for the job....but, that's another subject.

And, speaking of Golda, and the good old days -- the Israelis who were starting to try to pave the way for permanent annexation of the West Bank and Gaza after the 67 War, started immediately doing that talk about how Jordan is really Palestine...the bullshit story that started that latest video posted here. These countries and their boundaries are a permanent legacy of how Britain and France carved up and divided the Ottoman Empire after WWI. Jordan is mostly desert, and mostly already has a Palestinian majority population, thanks to the forced migrations after the wars with Israel. And they are ruled by a Hashemite member of the same royal family that runs Saudi Arabia. Somehow forcing Arabs out of their homes and across the Jordan River, started being considered by the hardline Israelis as the New Palestinian state that they would be willing to recognize....and that excuses taking all the land on the west side of the Jordan River for Israel.

[bush_cheney2004]

My sense of nationalism has never matched people like you, who just go berserk if someone criticizes their country's policies. And, in case you have noticed over many posts, I used to consider our Government - whether under Liberal or P.C. administrations, to be on the right side of most foreign policy issues...

But it is still "your government", just as the USA's is mine. Hell, I can find more people than the entire population of Canada in the USA that support Palestine over Israel. It's the policies and actions that matter, and so far your opinion has not carried the day in Canada, and never has when it comes to the Mideast.

.but, I sure as hell can't say that any more! And it's not just our Government that's giving Canada a black name in the world these days. It's even further off topic, but take a look at what Canadian mining companies are doing in Latin America these days. Their actions are worse than many of the U.S.-based companies.

Old news....see my posts from years ago. Wanna buy some conflict copper ?

[DogOnPorch]

But it is still "your government", just as the USA's is mine. Hell, I can find more people than the entire population of Canada in the USA that support Palestine over Israel. It's the policies and actions that matter, and so far your opinion has not carried the day in Canada, and never has when it comes to the Mideast.

I'd say let's go break the bank at the Monty Burns Gaza casino...but, the Israeli air force gave it some extra air conditioning during the last rocket barrage.

[WIP]

But it is still "your government", just as the USA's is mine. Hell, I can find more people than the entire population of Canada in the USA that support Palestine over Israel. It's the policies and actions that matter, and so far your opinion has not carried the day in Canada, and never has when it comes to the Mideast.

Old news....see my posts from years ago. Wanna buy some conflict copper ?

I've been reading and writing more than I care to about Israel and Palestine over the last few days, so I think I'm going to bail here before I waste any more time on the M E. I think I've already said everything I can think of saying on the subject already....time to move on.

[bleeding heart]

And yes, the U.S. could use the excuse of anti-communism....same excuse for supporting despots in Latin America, Asia, Africa and the Middle East.....

To this day, it remains a conventional piety, a reflexive generalization that assiduously avoids ugly details. Anything and everything is justified! hooray!

[bleeding heart]

Obviously I wasn't speaking of this thread - since Hudson didn't start it.

Yes, my mistake.

Or would you knowingly leave lies and propaganda in what you've posted? I would hope that I am correct in my belief that you would have the integrity to edit your post.

The one time I posted inarguably false information (carelessly, not intentionally)I edited (and posted the reason for the edit) after it was pointed out to me, yes. So I appreciate your belief in my integrity on the matter.

Edited December 7, 2012 by bleeding heart

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, my mistake.

The one time I posted inarguably false information (carelessly, not intentionally)I edited (and posted the reason for the edit) after it was pointed out to me, yes. So I appreciate your belief in my integrity on the matter.

Yeah...he fought back a bit...then just left it as a "fact". Hooray for Pallywood!

[-TSS-]

I'm so glad that I live in Finland which is an insignificant country the opinion of which counts for nothing. We live in a luxury in that sense that neither side of the Middle-East conflict views us as enemies because we don't matter.

Unfortunately, some very foolish people in my country have started demanding that we take sides, some for the one side some for the other side. I can't see what is there to be achieved by antagonizing either side of the conflict against us and making them adding our name on the list of their enemies.

Edited December 7, 2012 by -TSS-

[DogOnPorch]

I'm so glad that I live in Finland which is an insignificant country the opinion of which counts for nothing. We live in a luxury in that sense that neither side of the Middle-East conflict views us as enemies because we don't matter.

Unfortunately, some very foolish people in my country have started demanding that we take sides, some for the one side some for the other side. I can't see what is there to be achieved by antagonizing either side of the conflict against us and making them adding our name on the list of their enemies.

Your country voted 'yes' for giving a terrorist group a country of its own. But, I imagine it'll be all forgive and forget with Israel re: Finland.

[Hudson Jones]

Obviously I wasn't speaking of this thread - since Hudson didn't start it. Furthermore, if you aren't aware of what I'm referring to, perhaps you should have left it at "where is his lie...?" Your conclusion that I'm accusing him of leaving lies in what he posts based on nothing but a disagreement of his assessment is totally off base. He did leave lies and propaganda in the opening post I am referring to; that's a proven fact.

DogOnPorch provided the links regarding the lies and deceit that remain in the post - even after I provided proof of the lie that Hudson himself accepted. Would you not go back and edit such a post? Or would you knowingly leave lies and propaganda in what you've posted? I would hope that I am correct in my belief that you would have the integrity to edit your post.

I had absolutely no problem acknowledging that one of the photos posted was recycled from another war. For me, the truth is important. The photo was not removed because I didn't think about removing it. That was the only reason. You could have at least mentioned something about removing it from the original post if you noticed this. I will remove it now.

ref: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=21876&st=0

From now on whenever it is proven that you have made a mistake or have posted something incorrect, I would appreciate if you would do the same thing and remove and correct the post where the mistake was made.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Hudson Jones

[Hudson Jones]

I'm so glad that I live in Finland which is an insignificant country the opinion of which counts for nothing. We live in a luxury in that sense that neither side of the Middle-East conflict views us as enemies because we don't matter.

Unfortunately, some very foolish people in my country have started demanding that we take sides, some for the one side some for the other side. I can't see what is there to be achieved by antagonizing either side of the conflict against us and making them adding our name on the list of their enemies.

Why not take the side of international law and justice? Which is what Finland (and Canada) officially stand for.

[Canuckistani]

Why not take the side of international law and justice? Which is what Finland (and Canada) officially stand for.

They did, they voted for statehood.

[Guest American Woman]

I had absolutely no problem acknowledging that one of the photos posted was recycled from another war. For me, the truth is important. The photo was not removed because I didn't think about removing it. That was the only reason. You could have at least mentioned something about removing it from the original post if you noticed this. I will remove it now.

omg. Are you for real?? I did mention "something about removing it," more than once, and you justified keeping it up.

From now on whenever it is proven that you have made a mistake or have posted something incorrect, I would appreciate if you would do the same thing and remove and correct the post where the mistake was made.

If I had ever posted something proven to be a lie, nothing but deceitful propaganda, you can bet your life that I would remove it and correct the post - and I wouldn't need anyone else prodding me into doing it three weeks after the fact.

Edited December 7, 2012 by American Woman

[BC_chick]

Your country voted 'yes' for giving a terrorist group a country of its own.

Irgun was branded a terrorist group by Britain, yet Israel got the yes vote for statehood.

Funny how you don't mind rewarding some terrorists with statehood, eh?

[DogOnPorch]

Irgun was branded a terrorist group by Britain, yet Israel got the yes vote for statehood.

Funny how you don't mind rewarding some terrorists with statehood, eh?

Irgun was liquidated.

Edited December 7, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[BC_chick]

Irgun was liquidated.

Not at the time when Israel was voted into statehood. They were branded terrorists yet they were 'rewarded' (your wording about the Palestinians) with a nation. Their leader even became the PM of that nation and you fully support that country's right to exist in spite of its terrorist beginnings.

As they say, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Edited December 7, 2012 by BC_chick

[DogOnPorch]

Not at the time when Israel was voted into statehood. They were branded terrorists yet they were 'rewarded' (your wording about the Palestinians) with a nation. Their leader even became the PM of that nation and you fully support that country's right to exist in spite of its terrorist beginnings.

As they say, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Irgun was never part of the Jewish National Council and was at war with the Mufti and the British. Sometimes Haganah. Particularly the British, though...who they felt was the REAL enemy and chief enabler of the Mufti and his thugs. As for Begin...always a controversial figure with a hatred for the British and a very close-up experience with the Holocaust. He knew all too well who the Mufti was...and that the British were not going to stop him minus the 'wanted posters'. He did have a good point that the other terrorists did not. He wanted peace...and he and Sadat...old warriors both...created what I thought was a real peace. But, his bombing of the King David Hotel nearly derailed Israel's chances at being recognized at the UN as a war-weary world was in no mood for terror.

Either way...this is hardly comparable to decades upon decades of international terrorism on the part of the Palestinians and their supporters. But, as I mentioned elsewhere, the very fellow that tried to kill me as a kid is now a respected member of Irish Parliament. So maybe there's hope for these idiots...but, i feel that their religion will prevent that.

Irgun LST Altalena burns after being shelled by Haganah forces.

Edited December 8, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[Hudson Jones]

omg. Are you for real?? I did mention "something about removing it," more than once, and you justified keeping it up.

Show me where you asked me to remove and I refused and tried to justify keeping it up.

If I had ever posted something proven to be a lie, nothing but deceitful propaganda, you can bet your life that I would remove it and correct the post - and I wouldn't need anyone else prodding me into doing it three weeks after the fact.

I will make it a point to remind you to remove posts that are false and inaccurate from now on.

[Hudson Jones]

Not at the time when Israel was voted into statehood. They were branded terrorists yet they were 'rewarded' (your wording about the Palestinians) with a nation. Their leader even became the PM of that nation and you fully support that country's right to exist in spite of its terrorist beginnings.

Minor details that DogOnPorch doesn't like to talk about much. Especially since it makes his Mufti syndrome sound quite hypocritical.

[BC_chick]

Irgun was never part of the Jewish National Council and was at war with the Mufti and the British. Sometimes Haganah. Particularly the British, though...who they felt was the REAL enemy and chief enabler of the Mufti and his thugs. As for Begin...always a controversial figure with a hatred for the British and a very close-up experience with the Holocaust. He knew all too well who the Mufti was...and that the British were not going to stop him minus the 'wanted posters'. He did have a good point that the other terrorists did not. He wanted peace...and he and Sadat...old warriors both...created what I thought was a real peace. But, his bombing of the King David Hotel nearly derailed Israel's chances at being recognized at the UN as a war-weary world was in no mood for terror.

Either way...this is hardly comparable to decades upon decades of international terrorism on the part of the Palestinians and their supporters. But, as I mentioned elsewhere, the very fellow that tried to kill me as a kid is now a respected member of Irish Parliament. So maybe there's hope for these idiots...but, i feel that their religion will prevent that.

Irgun LST Altalena burns after being shelled by Haganah forces.

So when you say you don't believe in rewarding terrorists, you're strictly talking about Muslim terrorists. Catholic and Jewish terrorists are freedom-fighter-ish and they remain decent human beings even after attaining political objectives through terrorism. Gotcha.

[DogOnPorch]

So when you say you don't believe in rewarding terrorists, you're strictly talking about Muslim terrorists. Catholic and Jewish terrorists are freedom-fighter-ish and they remain decent human beings even after attaining political objectives through terrorism. Gotcha.

I'm not sure how you got that other than by your knee-jerk hatred of me. But your need to cast me as your enemy gives you warmth and villainization makes your cause true. Enjoy your role.

Seems the Provos and PLO felt they were/are connected...at some level involving blood and automatic rifles. The big difference, I suppose, is that the IRA aren't suicidal. If you think I view them as 'freedom fighter'...you're quite wrong. As usual...

Hamas getting the kids involved.

Edited December 8, 2012 by DogOnPorch