Did you Support Israel Attack on Palestine

[DogOnPorch]

Bonam: I don't have a direct line to Netanyahu.

DOP: Here...use my spare line.

[Bonam]

Bonam: I don't have a direct line to Netanyahu.

DOP: Here...use my spare line.

I must have misplaced that part of our "hasbara bot" starter kit!

[DogOnPorch]

I must have misplaced that part of our "hasbara bot" starter kit!

Where's bud when you need him?

[Bonam]

Where's bud when you need him?

I figure suspended for tossing insults. That's why his friend Hudson from "anti-Zionist" camp is here to fill in.

[DogOnPorch]

I figure suspended for tossing insults. That's why his friend Hudson from "anti-Zionist" camp is here to fill in.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh....makes sense.

[dre]

I don't have a direct line to Netanyahu. I'm just conversing on these here forums. And I'm telling you (and other posters here) that. So where is my underestimate? We're not talking history here, but simple math.

Im not saying your math is wrong, although Im not sure your 1 billion per year includes the cost of actually constructing all the plants in the first place.

But there is a couple of problems with your logic.

1. You are basing it on costs today. When Israel was bombing arab water projects, occupying the west bank, and building a massive network of wells, pipelines and pumping stations to get at the water there, desalination was much much more expensive. You are using the costs today as evidence that the conflict couldnt possibly be about water, but you would need to look at what Israels options were in 1960-1965 when the "war over water" started to demonstrate that.

2. Regardless of what it would cost to operate desalination per year, until Israel has all the plants built withdrawal from the west bank is simply not an option.

3. You make a quite reasonable point, but we know that Israel sees things differently. They have said in absolutely certain terms that they see water security as an existential threat, and they have demonstrated this with all their policies around water. They are the only country on the planet to move control of their water works under the military, they have openly threatened war with their neighbors for pumping water out of the Jordans tributaries, they have bombed their neighbors water projects, filled in palestinian wells, and spent decades building infrastructure to get water out of the occupied territories. So whether your cost/benefit analysis is right or wrong that doesnt matter because clearly they do not see it that way.

Having said that... Israel IS working on desalination. It has a few large plants, and at least two more under construction that I know of.

Edited November 19, 2012 by dre

[WIP]

No thats not my usual line. Iv simply claimed that the hostilities been 1964 and 1968 were over water, and thats an uncontraversial and thoroughly documented historical fact. Israelis call this period HaMilhama al HaMaim, which literally means "war over water". It started with construction of the NWC, and arab water diversion projects, and caused more than 300 clashes along the border which lead to 1967 war. You can pretend none of this happened, but youll find that in literally any historical account.

What was your source for the quote box info? I'm not questioning the veracity of the source, just wondering what else they have on this issue. I have no doubt that disputes over resources like water sources likely lie beneath the surface of debates that go on over superficial issues like religion and ethnicity. In Christian Parenti's latest book on climate change problems -- Tropic Of Chaos, he begins the first chapter by asking: "Who killed Ekaru Loruman?" A Turkana herdsman, living in northwest Kenya, who's murder went unsolved and pretty much forgotten, and needless to say - unreported in any international media because it was just another killing in an increasingly lawless region of East Africa, where tribal violence is getting worse as the years go by. But Parenti asked that question to start the book because the increased tribal tensions can be directly connected with the growing droughts and water scarcity in that area putting herders and farmers at each others' throats....mostly dividing up along their tribal affiliations. So what role does water scarcity play in the Middle East? Where a superficial analysis just focuses on religious affiliation.

[dre]

What was your source for the quote box info? I'm not questioning the veracity of the source, just wondering what else they have on this issue. I have no doubt that disputes over resources like water sources likely lie beneath the surface of debates that go on over superficial issues like religion and ethnicity. In Christian Parenti's latest book on climate change problems -- Tropic Of Chaos, he begins the first chapter by asking: "Who killed Ekaru Loruman?" A Turkana herdsman, living in northwest Kenya, who's murder went unsolved and pretty much forgotten, and needless to say - unreported in any international media because it was just another killing in an increasingly lawless region of East Africa, where tribal violence is getting worse as the years go by. But Parenti asked that question to start the book because the increased tribal tensions can be directly connected with the growing droughts and water scarcity in that area putting herders and farmers at each others' throats....mostly dividing up along their tribal affiliations. So what role does water scarcity play in the Middle East? Where a superficial analysis just focuses on religious affiliation.

That text is just from wikipedia.

[GostHacked]

Israel has more than enough shelters for every citizen...gas masks and atropine injections, too.

Maybe the Palestinians can build some bomb shelters. But most likely the materials are not available (blockade) and probably would be deemed illegal and destroyed by Israel.

[DogOnPorch]

Maybe the Palestinians can build some bomb shelters. But most likely the materials are not available (blockade) and probably would be deemed illegal and destroyed by Israel.

Hamas has plenty of bunkers.

[login]

The issue isn't black and white, it is posturing.

I'm really fed up with war. However my position isn't supported.

[WIP]

I wasn't sure which one of the hundred Israel/Palestine threads to add to, but this one seems to be the most appropriate, as I have been wondering since the latest hostilities began: WHY? Why this time? And what was in it for the Netanyahu government, since a decision not to start a land invasion actually might cost him his job according to Israeli polls. But, this piece from NBC News has me wondering if the motives behind this flimsy 'War On Hamas' was just to do a test run for that long-believed plan of the Israel and the U.S. - the War Against Iran:

What Gaza fighting taught Israel about possible war with Iran

So, what we learn is that Israel is really happy about their new antimissile system "Iron Dome", the public support for the operations...including how well the civilian populations in most cities responded quickly and got to the air raid shelters...many times on a few of the days. And casualties were low, even less than expected....certainly much less than what residents of Gaza experienced from Israeli bombings.

On the downside, we learn that in spite of all the bullshit, chest-thumping rhetoric, that Israel needs the United States....especially if they were to make a land invasion and occupation of Gaza. Israel, obviously cannot afford these high tech wars, and are fundamentally spending American money every time they launch missiles and go on bombing runs. So a full invasion is out of the question without U.S. backing....which they probably have anyway, since the tail has been wagging the dog through a series of Democratic and Republican administrations. The last U.S. Government to say NO to any of Israel's plans was Bush One. Since then, U.S. administrations jump to everything on the wishlist for new Israeli hardware, no matter the cost, and if Israel really wants an Iran War, they're going to get it, regardless of the fact that Obama is in his 2nd term now. And now that the test run is over, when will they start the big war?

Stop pretending the US is an uninvolved, helpless party in the Israeli assault on Gaza

I have one relation (I'm not going to get more specific) who is a pilot in the Canadian Forces, and was down a few weeks ago on a hastily planned visit with family and friends, because he was told that it would be very unlikely he would have the clearance to travel near the Christmas holidays, and not to make any plans for leave in the new year. He says what little he has been told is classified and cannot be shared. So, I wonder if any others have similar stories to tell, and exactly what is being planned for the new year!

[bush_cheney2004]

Ummm...yeah....the larger issue of Iran has been obvious from the start. Sit back and watch how the game is played.

[WIP]

Ummm...yeah....the larger issue of Iran has been obvious from the start. Sit back and watch how the game is played.

It is easy to see how this latest game could spark a world war and nukes and everything else, when we consider how ruthless the competition for resources and trade is getting.

[Rue]

Brilliant post.

But when I made those same points two or three years ago you singled me out as a bigot.

I did not and do not attack Muslims as people in my responses. I criticize their governments and I am clear on that. I do not criticize Muslims as people I criticize those Muslim people who would use their government to discriminate against others no differently than I do Jewish or Christian extremists. I don't like extremists.

I am not interested in threads that encourage hatred against Muslims. I am not. I do not want to hate Muslims. I hate Muslim extremists for taking a religion and turning it into a rationalization to be terrorist or anti semitic. I criticize Christians and Jews no differently. I hold myself to the same standard.

I am not morally superior to you nor have I ever claimed to be but I do not and will never enter into your realm of political dialogue.

American Woman knows me well. I criticize Merlin or anyone including myself if we stereotype people in a hateful way. The comments I made about sharia law and Muslim states is historic fact. I do not speak for the Muslims in their nations that do not necessarily agree with their extremist leaders but can not say a thing about it.

See for me I do not hate Iranian people. I detest their government and the clergy controlling it but not the people. Not the brave students who have tried to stand up against it. Not its Bahaiis, Jews or brave people who question its extremism. Of course not.

I openly embrace peaceful Muslims. I spit on the extremist ones as I would Jewish or Christian ones.

if you can't understand that I will explain it one more time. This forum is full of hate mongers-people who presume to speak for Palestinians and Israelis. They can not and they do not. They do not know the difference between these people and the Palestinians who hold them hostage and/or the extremists who would bastardize Judaism to suggest things it does not.

I believe Jews and Palestinians both have rights to their own states. I do not believe Mr. Abbas or Hamas does but I know Palestinians who do. I will not give up on them just as they will not give up on me and know I will not support or condone anyone in the name of Judaism or Israel preaching hatred against Palestinians.

We are past hatred. We need new words. We need to take all the arm chair geniuses and tell them to shut up and not talk about what they do not now.

I have lived there and watched people die. I will live with what I saw and I have to live with the failure of humanity. I am not proud of it. I am not proud of it at all. I understand the humility of soldiers. I get it. I get the nightmares they die with. I get it. We did not want to do what we did. We never wanted to and do not want to in the future. we want peace.

[-TSS-]

I understand that Israel is the ally of the USA but not to tolerate a single word of criticism of Israel as if Israel just could do no wrong is taking the whole term "ally" to a new level.

[ironstone]

Israel has the military capability to crush the Palestinians yet they to not.They always fight with one hand tied behind their backs.

Does anyone for one second believe that if the Palestinians had the means to crush the Israelis that they wouldn't do it?

[WIP]

Israel has the military capability to crush the Palestinians yet they to not.They always fight with one hand tied behind their backs.

Does anyone for one second believe that if the Palestinians had the means to crush the Israelis that they wouldn't do it?

How merciful! In case you weren't aware, that "hand tied behind their backs" is the supply of American missiles and military hardware needed by Israel to prosecute their wars. If the Israeli Government wanted to invade Gaza, but the WhiteHouse did not, then no invasion!

On the other hand, it's more than likely that the Gaza bombing campaign was just a dry run to test missiles and missile defense systems before the joint U.S./Israeli war on Iran coming up very shortly.

Or, it may just be a matter of playing the waiting game until Gaza collapses in a humanitarian catastrophe in a few years when drinking water supplies are exhausted:

Israel’s destruction of infrastructure has brought to the brink of collapse the water and sanitation sector which was already dire after years of blockade. The destruction of the sewage system led to mass amounts of sewage flooding into ground water, which was already threatened by pollution, over-abstraction, intrusion of sea water. 90 million liters of sewage are now being discharged daily to the sea as the current waste water treatment plants are working beyond their designed capacity. [3] 90 percent of the Coastal Aquifer is now unfit for human consumption and it is expected to become completely unusable by 2016, and the situation will be irreversible by 2020 if no action is taken. [4]

Improving the water situation in Gaza remains very difficult since Israel prevents the entry of the materials needed for essential WASH projects. A year has passed since Israel declared the ease of the blockade. However, less than a fifth of WASH materials have been allowed in. Add to that the lack of fuel and the power cuts which affect the operation of the water and sanitation system. [5]

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/palestinians-running-out-of-drinking-water-as-israeli-offensive-continues.html

[Merlin]

I didn't support the terrorist group Hamas launching rockets into Israel but I did however support Israel defending its citizens from terror.

[bush_cheney2004]

If the Israeli Government wanted to invade Gaza, but the WhiteHouse did not, then no invasion!

This is false and a common misunderstanding of Israel's capabilities and military force structure. The Israeli's can invade Gaza whenever they decide it is in their best interest to do so.

In contrast, Canada is far more dependent on U.S. arms manufacturers and military integration to execute an "invasion" of any kind.

Edited November 26, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[WIP]

This is false and a common misunderstanding of Israel's capabilities and military force structure. The Israeli's can invade Gaza whenever they decide it is in their best interest to do so.

I hear different, conflicting theories about who is actually in control of the U.S./Israel partnership, but one thing that cannot be denied is that if the supply of arms was cut off by the U.S., it would be the end of Israel projecting military power....these new missiles and planes are expensive!

In contrast, Canada is far more dependent on U.S. arms manufacturers and military integration to execute an "invasion" of any kind.

No kidding!

[DogOnPorch]

This is false and a common misunderstanding of Israel's capabilities and military force structure. The Israeli's can invade Gaza whenever they decide it is in their best interest to do so.

In contrast, Canada is far more dependent on U.S. arms manufacturers and military integration to execute an "invasion" of any kind.

People are often surprised to find that the vast bulk of Israel's armored forces are old Soviet T-55s and T-62s converted to various roles. Somebody left thousands of them in the desert...often intact. I wonder who...lol? The most common piece of US kit in the IDF is the rather long-of-tooth M-113 APC if I'm not mistaken.

[DogOnPorch]

I hear different, conflicting theories about who is actually in control of the U.S./Israel partnership, but one thing that cannot be denied is that if the supply of arms was cut off by the U.S., it would be the end of Israel projecting military power....these new missiles and planes are expensive!

No kidding!

Most of the 3 billion in US transfers to Israel = Jet-A fuel.

[bush_cheney2004]

I hear different, conflicting theories about who is actually in control of the U.S./Israel partnership, but one thing that cannot be denied is that if the supply of arms was cut off by the U.S., it would be the end of Israel projecting military power....these new missiles and planes are expensive!

Israel would be foolish to be totally dependent on U.S. support, which is why it not only procures from multiple nations, but has a substantial domestic arms industry. I think you are conflating US foreign military aid and sales of U.S. kit, which is only a part of Israel's force structure. Israel defended itself and projected power quite well before increased U.S. aid in the 1970's.

[DogOnPorch]

Israel would be foolish to be totally dependent on U.S. support, which is why it not only procures from multiple nations, but has a substantial domestic arms industry. I think you are conflating US foreign military aid and sales of U.S. kit, which is only a part of Israel's force structure. Israel defended itself and projected power quite well before increased U.S. aid in the 1970's.

The miracle of WW2 surplus Shermans and new high velocity 105mm AP guns.

Jingo...

Nice one, too. Israel paid like...a buck...for 'em from the trash heap o' history.

Edited November 26, 2012 by DogOnPorch