Obama may make criticism of Islam illegal

[cybercoma]

Study after study show that the 'white' sounding name on a resume will get you more interviews and more jobs even when the qualifications of the candidate are the same. I've see it first-hand, unforuntately, where HR throws out 'ethinic' sounding resumes.

The road may be getting paved, but it's still very uneven my friend.

Yeah, but posters like bcsapper don't believe that's true. When you're operating in a different reality than others, common ground is impossible.

[Guest]

Study after study show that the 'white' sounding name on a resume will get you more interviews and more jobs even when the qualifications of the candidate are the same. I've see it first-hand, unforuntately, where HR throws out 'ethinic' sounding resumes.

The road may be getting paved, but it's still very uneven my friend.

Yeah. That's the type of discrimination I want ended.

Edited November 5, 2012 by bcsapper

[Guest]

Yeah, but posters like bcsapper don't believe that's true. When you're operating in a different reality than others, common ground is impossible.

I don't think you would know what I believe to be true.

[BC_chick]

Yeah. That's the type of discrimination I want ended.

Me too, but like I said, until you do, affirmative-action is here to stay.

Good luck with your quest, btw, it's no small feat.

Edited November 5, 2012 by BC_chick

[Guest]

Me too, but like I said, until you do, affirmative-action is here to stay.

Good luck with your quest, btw, it's no small feat.

I just don't think that affirmative action is a good way to go about it. It's far too general, and it discriminates against those who never had a say in previous discrimination. I believe in acknowledging the sins of the Father, but not forcing the children to pay for them.

[Guest]

Holy cow! I just noticed I have a warning point!

What's it for?

Never mind, I think I have it figured out. It's because I don't like Justin Trudeau.

Edited November 5, 2012 by bcsapper

[bleeding heart]

Holy cow! I just noticed I have a warning point!

What's it for?

Never mind, I think I have it figured out. It's because I don't like Justin Trudeau.

I daresay no one has any warning points for such a reason.

I understand there have been several objections--especially to suspensions (understandably)...but I don't imagine warning points are given out that promiscuously.

[Michael Hardner]

Holy cow! I just noticed I have a warning point!

What's it for?

Never mind, I think I have it figured out. It's because I don't like Justin Trudeau.

You can see your messages and chats by clicking on the two icons beside your name at the right above.

[Guest]

You can see your messages and chats by clicking on the two icons beside your name at the right above.

Yeah, I found that after the initial post, thanks.

I feel like... Bonnie and Clyde!

[GostHacked]

Such restrictions ban ownership of particular types of guns and associated military applications, not the right to own firearms. Free speech rights would be even more difficult to infringe.

However that is happening. Free speech rights are being constantly infringed upon. Also with signing statements and executive orders through the last few decades, the beloved Constitution has been severely marginalized.

[Merlin]

I find almost anything to do with Islam to be scary to me. Where I live I am seeing more and more Muslims and more and more of those mosques with those things that look like gun turrets. Every so often throughout the day there is music coming from them in another language and then people go to the mosque. it is scary for me. Some of the women who go there have their entire faces covered except for two eye holes and this scares me very much, it looks so spooky and very scary. I wonder if they are planning to kill me when I pass by because I am disabled. I cannot afford to move away, I hope that the police will protect me from them if they decide to attack me because I am disabled.

So it scares me when I hear about people saying that the President will make it illegal to say anything bad about any religion. We need to be free to criticize everything or else we will become oppressed. Since I am disabled i will be the first to be killed off and I am living in constant fear right now.

[Bonam]

Me too, but like I said, until you do, affirmative-action is here to stay.

Good luck with your quest, btw, it's no small feat.

Here to stay for how long? Until when? Is there some mechanism for removing it once its supposed goals have been reached?

Further, is there any evidence that affirmative action reduces discrimination, racial tensions, hate crimes, or hate speech? In my opinion, it may well instead perpetuate such things, by compounding upon the wrongs of prior generations a whole set of new injustices. If an employer feels forced to hire people of a certain minority group when they don't really want those candidates, they may well have the mindset of being fed up with "those people" and refuse to hire any more beyond filling the minimum quota. A person of a "majority" group may well feel slighted or discriminated against when they lose a spot to an affirmative action competitor, and may harbor resentment for years thereafter. There are many such possibilities, which very likely play themselves out by the thousands on a constant basis, perpetuating race-based thinking where it otherwise would not exist.

In the end, the reality is simple, the way to correct an imbalance is to get rid of the imbalance, not to tilt the imbalance in the opposite direction. That should be self-evidently obvious. Unfortunately, the obvious is seldom so once it becomes clouded by politics and ideology.

Now, cybercoma says that such an opinion as above can be based only on perceiving an alternate reality, but I don't think so. Perhaps there are employers out there that "throw out" ethnic sounding resumes. But what can you really fix by forcing them to hire candidates they don't want? Further, some employers throw out resumes of people with eastern European sounding last names (I've seen it first hand). And yet such people are not beneficiaries of affirmative action. And certain minority-owned businesses hire exclusively or almost exclusively people of their own ethnicity, and no program seems to attempt to compel them to do otherwise (again, seen first hand, businesses owned by Chinese immigrants hiring no one but other Chinese).

You cannot fix an injustice by creating a new one, all the while ignoring countless instances of similar discrimination by/towards other groups that exist today.

On the other hand, maybe cybercoma is right, and the reality really has to be different to be able to hold the contrary opinion. I really don't know how after serious thought one can hold the view that the way to correct the injustices of racism and other discrimination is to discriminate based on race.

[Michael Hardner]

I hope that the police will protect me from them if they decide to attack me because I am disabled.

This is called a 'misplaced modifier'. Are you saying that you want the police to protect you because you're disabled or that those people will attack you because you're disabled ?

So it scares me when I hear about people saying that the President will make it illegal to say anything bad about any religion.

Not to worry - that idea was just somebody's fantasy. Don't believe everything you read.

[Michael Hardner]

Here to stay for how long? Until when? Is there some mechanism for removing it once its supposed goals have been reached?

The same basic mechanisms - research, public discussion - that put the programs in the first place. Now, there's concern that the system is failing boys, for example. This may be the first time that a program targeting genders will have to be switched:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Committee/411/soci/DPK_PSE/recommend-e.htm

The committee recommends that all partners in education examine carefully the current education system to identify how it is failing boys and how to ensure that they are in the best position to access post-secondary education.

Further, is there any evidence that affirmative action reduces discrimination, racial tensions, hate crimes, or hate speech?

No. And that's a problem. I have read on this very briefly. Florida provides for automatic scholarships for those finishing at a certain academic level, which satisfies the goal of helping those who need help - and who also are working to help themselves. Some have suggested that affirmative action be used to target poverty - which is the real problem.

There are many middle class blacks today, and they don't need help. The idea that poor=black in the US (and we're talking about the US again aren't we ... ) is false. There are more poor white people and this is in fact a documented form of racism. (I read an article in Newsweek in 1994 about how poor whites are suffering due to liberal prejudices about poverty and race.)

On the other hand, maybe cybercoma is right, and the reality really has to be different to be able to hold the contrary opinion. I really don't know how after serious thought one can hold the view that the way to correct the injustices of racism and other discrimination is to discriminate based on race.

There is the problem of geographic centres of poverty - and if you look at minorities that have moved forward, it was because they built on their strengths together rather than splitting into rich and poor. I don't have many examples, but I'm thinking of Quebec perhaps. Anybody else ?

[DogOnPorch]

Here to stay for how long? Until when? Is there some mechanism for removing it once its supposed goals have been reached?

Further, is there any evidence that affirmative action reduces discrimination, racial tensions, hate crimes, or hate speech? In my opinion, it may well instead perpetuate such things, by compounding upon the wrongs of prior generations a whole set of new injustices. If an employer feels forced to hire people of a certain minority group when they don't really want those candidates, they may well have the mindset of being fed up with "those people" and refuse to hire any more beyond filling the minimum quota. A person of a "majority" group may well feel slighted or discriminated against when they lose a spot to an affirmative action competitor, and may harbor resentment for years thereafter. There are many such possibilities, which very likely play themselves out by the thousands on a constant basis, perpetuating race-based thinking where it otherwise would not exist.

In the end, the reality is simple, the way to correct an imbalance is to get rid of the imbalance, not to tilt the imbalance in the opposite direction. That should be self-evidently obvious. Unfortunately, the obvious is seldom so once it becomes clouded by politics and ideology.

Now, cybercoma says that such an opinion as above can be based only on perceiving an alternate reality, but I don't think so. Perhaps there are employers out there that "throw out" ethnic sounding resumes. But what can you really fix by forcing them to hire candidates they don't want? Further, some employers throw out resumes of people with eastern European sounding last names (I've seen it first hand). And yet such people are not beneficiaries of affirmative action. And certain minority-owned businesses hire exclusively or almost exclusively people of their own ethnicity, and no program seems to attempt to compel them to do otherwise (again, seen first hand, businesses owned by Chinese immigrants hiring no one but other Chinese).

You cannot fix an injustice by creating a new one, all the while ignoring countless instances of similar discrimination by/towards other groups that exist today.

On the other hand, maybe cybercoma is right, and the reality really has to be different to be able to hold the contrary opinion. I really don't know how after serious thought one can hold the view that the way to correct the injustices of racism and other discrimination is to discriminate based on race.

Well said, Bonam.

[Michael Hardner]

I can accept that it`s time for us to move on from Affirmative Action but only if we replace it with something better. Doing nothing until the `perfect` system comes along is just a cop-out and excuse to make it easier on ourselves.

[Merlin]

I can accept that it`s time for us to move on from Affirmative Action but only if we replace it with something better. Doing nothing until the `perfect` system comes along is just a cop-out and excuse to make it easier on ourselves.

Does it need to be replaced? In some areas non whites are the majority, will new AA legislation cover this? Maybe people could get by on their own without help from the government. I don't know maybe they can't.

[Michael Hardner]

Does it need to be replaced?

I think so. I think government should try to solve problems. Why not ? They spend enough time helping business.

In some areas non whites are the majority, will new AA legislation cover this?

Yes, we already covered that. They have shown that they are concerned with equality.

[dre]

I can accept that it`s time for us to move on from Affirmative Action but only if we replace it with something better. Doing nothing until the `perfect` system comes along is just a cop-out and excuse to make it easier on ourselves.

What you COULD do is just means test everything. If the reason for affirmative action is to help lift less privileged groups out of poverty then extend those benefits based on means instead of skin color. Seems pretty simple to me... but its still descrimination (which is fine).

[Michael Hardner]

What you COULD do is just means test everything. If the reason for affirmative action is to help lift less privileged groups out of poverty then extend those benefits based on means instead of skin color. Seems pretty simple to me... but its still descrimination (which is fine).

I am in favour of it. Why not ?

[Guest American Woman]

Some affirmative action initiatives are based on means.

[dre]

I am in favour of it. Why not ?

Well I guess pretty much ANYTHING you do will piss off SOME politically significant constituency. I assume the idea would be met with with cries of SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM!, and that somehow Stalin, Hitler, and the Nazis would play into the debate.

Theres legal issues to doing this in Canada as well, because we are legally obliged to take care of the natives for all of eternity, but we have no such obligation to take care of anyone else.

[Bonam]

What you COULD do is just means test everything. If the reason for affirmative action is to help lift less privileged groups out of poverty then extend those benefits based on means instead of skin color. Seems pretty simple to me... but its still descrimination (which is fine).

That would at least be better than doing it based on race. May also be more difficult to implement since people would have to provide evidence of their income/assets to qualify. I'm not convinced that even this is necessary, however.

[CPCFTW]

I think so. I think government should try to solve problems. Why not ? They spend enough time helping business.

Maybe the problem is government making a class of people feel like victims?

Edited November 10, 2012 by CPCFTW

[Michael Hardner]

Maybe the problem is government making a class of people feel like victims?

Maybe. Which class are we talking about ?