No access to healthcare = Murder?

[TheNewTeddy]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/26/us/new-york-nanny-deaths/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

This is what happens when you place "taxes" as more important than healthcare and the poor are unable to afford healthcare as a result. I don't blame the lawmakers, or even the "insane". I blame the voters who vote against it.

[CPCFTW]

What nonsense. If you refuse to blame the nanny, there's no one else to blame in this case.

First of all, treating insanity isn't my responsibility or the responsibility of other taxpayers. If you feel so strongly about helping the mentally ill, then you can donate to a charity.

Secondly, you have no evidence that this would not have occurred had the nanny been receiving treatment. There are plenty of cases of mentally ill patients who were receiving treatment but still committed horrendous acts such as this.

[TheNewTeddy]

I argue it is, and that voting for any less, is murder.

[CPCFTW]

I argue that it isn't, and that stating it is, is idiocy.

Seems we're at an impasse. Either I'm a murderer or you're an idiot.

[Michael Hardner]

Are you seriously arguing that treating the insane is a bad idea ?

Edited to add: No - are you arguing that it's stupid to do so ?

[bush_cheney2004]

Treating the insane use to take the form of forced medication, electro-convulsive therapy, frontal lobotomy, confinement, etc. Insanity is no longer a medical diagnosis but rather a legal determination.

[CPCFTW]

Are you seriously arguing that treating the insane is a bad idea ?

Edited to add: No - are you arguing that it's stupid to do so ?

I'm arguing that voting to cut funding to healthcare, necessitating cutbacks in some areas which may include treatment of the mentally ill, is not murder. I'm also arguing that saying that it is, is idiocy.

Do you disagree? Perhaps you can put forth a better argument than "I argue that it is"

[August1991]

This is what happens when you place "taxes" as more important than healthcare and the poor are unable to afford healthcare as a result. I don't blame the lawmakers, or even the "insane". I blame the voters who vote against it.

By your logic, we should have no insane people on the loose in Canada, or certainly none that kill innocent victims.

Meanwhile, Canada's single-payer health care system leads (aside from long waiting lists and millions of people without a family doctor) to deaths through "medical mistakes", and no one being punished.

Dr. Robert Deane sighs heavily as he recounts his wife Peggy's last years of life. "With cancer, it's just bad news, after bad news, after bad news." His dark assessment of Peggy's losing battle with the disease came during his testimony before the Commission of Inquiry into Hormone Receptor Testing, a provincial inquiry that is tearing Newfoundland apart and probably not doing much for the confidence of cancer patients right across the country.

CBC

----

So if accidental death is the measure, which system has the incentives in play to self-correct over time?

Edited October 27, 2012 by August1991

[Guest American Woman]

http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_c1

This is what happens when you place "taxes" as more important than healthcare and the poor are unable to afford healthcare as a result. I don't blame the lawmakers, or even the "insane". I blame the voters who vote against it.

Where does it say that the nanny was "poor" and "unable to afford healthcare?"

[Bonam]

http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_c1

This is what happens when you place "taxes" as more important than healthcare and the poor are unable to afford healthcare as a result. I don't blame the lawmakers, or even the "insane". I blame the voters who vote against it.

Your observations about healthcare seem to be entirely unrelated to the story in question.

[Pliny]

Horrendous stories like this are usually but not always attributable to someone who did have access to medical care. You must note that certain anti-depressants have side-effects that can cause suicidal ideation and homicidal tendencies. I would contend that she was being treated. So should I conclude that access to medical care is equal to murder?

I should think that would be just as idiotic a statement as the OP's premise.

[cybercoma]

The free market is a ridiculous mechanism for health care. It has to do with the flow of information and the fact that people in emergency situations don't shop around for the best, most trustworthy provider; you go to the closest hospital. Someone recently said, "when a used car salesman misleads you, you don't die."

[Pliny]

The free market is a ridiculous mechanism for health care. It has to do with the flow of information and the fact that people in emergency situations don't shop around for the best, most trustworthy provider; you go to the closest hospital. Someone recently said, "when a used car salesman misleads you, you don't die."

Going to the closest hospital is, of course, a guarantee it is the best, most trustworthy provider. Right?

Unarguably, there have always been quacks selling snake oil, even today. However, in the case of emergencies people have never shopped around and have always gone to the closest, most knowledgeable and trustworthy provider they were aware of. If necessary, the treatment was charitable. Our Canadian healthcare single payer system has eliminated the necessity for charity. We all get equally mediocre treatment.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Pliny

[bush_cheney2004]

.... We all get equally mediocre treatment.

I'm not convinced of that based on a recent BC story fiasco involving two kids with spinal deformities that went untreated so long, one is now permanently disabled. What care they did get was finally provided by a Shriner's hospital in the United States. Health care access and services in Canada can vary widely from province to province despite the CHA.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/10/11/bc-spinal-surgery-report.html

Edited October 27, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[punked]

I'm not convinced of that based on a recent BC story fiasco involving two kids with spinal deformities that went untreated so long, one is now permanently disabled. What care they did get was finally provided by a Shriner's hospital in the United States. Health care access and services in Canada can vary widely from province to province despite the CHA.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...ery-report.html

Yah because in the states he could have just walked into an emergency room to get that fixed right?

[Shady]

Yah because in the states he could have just walked into an emergency room to get that fixed right?

Yep, nobody can be turned away from the emergency room, whether they have insurance or not they get treated. Medicare for everyone over 65. Medicaid for low income individuals and families. And the Children's health insurance program from children. Lot's o'access to health care.

[TheNewTeddy]

The emergency room won't help you if you have slight head problems.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yah because in the states he could have just walked into an emergency room to get that fixed right?

No, but he certainly wouldn't have to wait 27 months for a standard therapy to correct the deformity. The point is that access and quality of care can vary widely depending on the province or procedure, same as in the "states".

[cybercoma]

No, but he certainly wouldn't have to wait 27 months for a standard therapy to correct the deformity.

He just wouldn't get the therapy at all, if he couldn't afford it.

[bush_cheney2004]

He just wouldn't get the therapy at all, if he couldn't afford it.

Maybe, but he definitely didn't get the therapy in British Columbia, Canada.

[Pliny]

I'm not convinced of that based on a recent BC story fiasco involving two kids with spinal deformities that went untreated so long, one is now permanently disabled. What care they did get was finally provided by a Shriner's hospital in the United States. Health care access and services in Canada can vary widely from province to province despite the CHA.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...ery-report.html

So you think the CHA provides us with less than mediocre service? Would you settle for mediocre on a bell curve? The majority of us getting mediocre service.

Just a little anecdotal story here.

I had a little medical problem that required some emergency service so I went to the emergency room at a particular hospital where I knew one of the emergency room Doctors. I wasn't certain he was on duty but I thought if he were I would probably get some better attention. I didn't want or ask for any special treatment and the Doctor who saw me was not the warmest or most compassionate in our first encounter. More like she was just doing a job. Between that and our next encounter I ran into the Doctor that I knew and to make a long story short I was treated a little better than what is mediocre. I went from a common diagnostic room to a private room and was seen immediately for tests from three different technicians with lab results that were ready within the half hour. My wife was astounded at the change in attitude.

[bush_cheney2004]

So you think the CHA provides us with less than mediocre service? Would you settle for mediocre on a bell curve? The majority of us getting mediocre service.

Yes, I would agree to a bell curve distribution for provincial health care with an asterisk for much better and faster than mediocre care for those with the means to seek a private health care provider, within or outside Canada.

[Pliny]

Well, here is the latest on the Nanny.

"Juan Pozo, 67, who formerly rented a room from the Ortega family, told the Times the nanny's sister said Friday she had "felt like she was losing her mind" lately and had been taken by relatives to visit a psychologist."

Read more: http://www.vcstar.co.../#ixzz2AbXqyRGE

- vcstar.com

She did have access to health care as I said. I think though that perhaps the visit was to a psychiatrist and not a psychologist, as psychologists don't write prescriptions. Maybe she got a referral.

So does access to healthcare in this case = murder?

I should add that the usual way of looking at these things is to make a justification for the mental health industry by saying, things like "the patient came too late for help" or "the patient was ill to start with". The question then becomes would it have happened if the patient had not sought "help". Something that can never be proven but we do know that a lot of strange murders have occurred with people on Psychiatric lines. James Holmes, responsible for the Batman movie massacre, apparently studying Psychiatry, the Ft. Hood shooting with "Dr." Hassan (a psychiatrist himself, with a shoebox full of meds found in his closet), these two cases didn't come too late. There is a long list of these bizarre events and you can be certain whenever you hear about one in the news the perpetrator was "troubled" and already getting treatment not lacking treatment because of no access.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Pliny

[Pliny]

And the latest is...

"It is reported that in her police statement, the nanny said Marina and Kris Krim had arranged to give her extra money for doing five hours of housework per week.

"They were asking her to clean, to do housework. She was unhappy about that," the source said.

She also complained that her new schedule conflicted with her appointments with the doctor."

"Conflicted with her appointments with the doctor"

It appears the assumption of the OP that she had no access to healthcare is incorrect.

You won't hear it in the press or from the government or the healthcare industry but you will start to hear it more and more from victims and from the regular citizen that bizarre behavior like stabbing to death two children or drowning your kids in the bathtub or or shooting up a school or massacring people in a crowded theatre are the effects you can expect from certain prescription drugs.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Pliny

[Guest American Woman]

I thought the title of this thread was ludicrous right from the get-go, first and foremost because people snap in countries that have national health care, too, and secondly because there was no indication that the nanny didn't have access to health care.