Ontario Teachers Tighten the Screws

[Michael Hardner]

We are talking about corrupt politicians, Michael. What grounds did McGuinty have to do what he did so far?

We're talking politics here. He would simply claim their work to rule is a violation of the contract. Even if he loses in court, what would he care if it kept him in power?

Well, if he was going to go that far then he might as well pass a law outlawing the union outright. But, it doesn't matter... the whole thing is a fantasy especially given that it would be a short-term solution that would make the Liberals very permanent enemies with core supporters.

Yes, it would be a stupid move.

The law is perverted all the time. It sometimes doesn't matter if you are right or wrong. You can win with better lawyers. Or lose in court but win at your actual goal of delay. Or be absolutely in the wrong but win because your opponent is too poor to afford as good a lawyer as you have!

That's unfortunately how the real world often works.

There are plenty of scenarios we could come up with, I suppose.

[dre]

And that is a crying shame....

Actually not really. You might wanna take a look at how workers were treated before collective bargaining, and how much they were paid.

Collective bargaining is a fundamental human right in any society that allows freedom of association. If you want to live in a totalitarian society then move to one.

[Wild Bill]

Well, if he was going to go that far then he might as well pass a law outlawing the union outright. But, it doesn't matter... the whole thing is a fantasy especially given that it would be a short-term solution that would make the Liberals very permanent enemies with core supporters.

Yes, it would be a stupid move.

There are plenty of scenarios we could come up with, I suppose.

Yes, there are. Who would have thought the Liberals would blow all that money to stop building that power station just to try to keep the seat?

You're right about core supporters. Teachers have given the Liberals a lot of donations for campaigns these past few elections. Still, donations aren't votes or even guarantees of votes.

I just don't believe that parents are supporting teachers as a majority opinion. I don't believe that parents are irrelevant in the equation of the issue. Otherwise, I would have to accept that popular wishes have no effect at all in our political system and I don't think things are quite that bad...yet!

[Guest]

Actually not really. You might wanna take a look at how workers were treated before collective bargaining, and how much they were paid.

Collective bargaining is a fundamental human right in any society that allows freedom of association. If you want to live in a totalitarian society then move to one.

Collective bargaining is a great idea. They should come up with organizations that help workers do just that, in an attempt to get for them better working conditions and wages.

Edited October 30, 2012 by bcsapper

[Michael Hardner]

I just don't believe that parents are supporting teachers as a majority opinion. I don't believe that parents are irrelevant in the equation of the issue. Otherwise, I would have to accept that popular wishes have no effect at all in our political system and I don't think things are quite that bad...yet!

It's not parents that support teachers ONLY that matter in that scenario.

Even middle-of-the-road voters would wisely take a dim view of the Liberals lashing out by firing teachers illegally, and throwing the entire education system into a year of chaos for no gain whatsoever. That's just a pointless strategy.

[Wild Bill]

It's not parents that support teachers ONLY that matter in that scenario.

Even middle-of-the-road voters would wisely take a dim view of the Liberals lashing out by firing teachers illegally, and throwing the entire education system into a year of chaos for no gain whatsoever. That's just a pointless strategy.

You are probably right that most parents would not want such a drastic step taken, TODAY! Still, I can't help but think that more parents are against the teachers and that the number keeps growing every time we have a conflict.

Meanwhile, it sure seems the teachers' union leadership just doesn't give a damn! Some of the actions they are taking would seem to prove that.

The trend of parents being resentful of teachers' union tactics is plain. The only question is how far and how fast will it grow? Maybe it will change, I don't know. All I DO know is that if teachers truly believe that the majority of parents support them then they are dreaming in technicolour.

[Michael Hardner]

Meanwhile, it sure seems the teachers' union leadership just doesn't give a damn! Some of the actions they are taking would seem to prove that.

I don't see it. Instead, I see them using the same tactics as usual - work to rule, with the threat of a strike - and people on here acting as through they're criminals for doing it. I don't think it's the best approach either, but McGuinty's counter-plan was a failure basically.

The leadership doesn`t give a damn ? Why should they not strike, then ? What is the alternative when they're challenged in this way ?

The trend of parents being resentful of teachers' union tactics is plain. The only question is how far and how fast will it grow? Maybe it will change, I don't know. All I DO know is that if teachers truly believe that the majority of parents support them then they are dreaming in technicolour.

Like I said, Harris took them on and got farther than many premiers - and also got himself into a permanent war that ended his political career apparently for good.

[Moonlight Graham]

The ON government wants teachers to take a wage freeze given the economic recession, they want to cut their paid sick days from 20 (4 work weeks of paid leave! ie: a month!) to 10 (2 weeks). They want to change how teachers can now bank those sick days and cash them all out when they retire.

I think those are reasonable demands by the ON gov. Teachers understandably hate it, but as a taxpayer it's not fair that we still have to pay them to eat off gold-plated dinnerware and bloat the ON budget while most everyone else in ON has to suffer through this recession and make many sacrifices while still paying these whiners.

Welcome to reality, teachers of ON. I hope you all are forced to live like the rest of us.

[CPCFTW]

Yes Michael.. I can see it happening.

Step 1: claim that teacher's work to rule actions necessitate legislation of even lower wages and benefits and some layoffs to hire employees who will take over the duties teachers refuse to do.

Step 2: wait for teachers to stomp their feet and illegally strike

Step 3: fire all the strikers and bring on the scabs!

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Yes Michael.. I can see it happening.

Step 1: claim that teacher's work to rule actions necessitate legislation of even lower wages and benefits and some layoffs to hire employees who will take over the duties teachers refuse to do.

Step 2: wait for teachers to stomp their feet and illegally strike

Step 3: fire all the strikers and bring on the scabs!

Yep. that's exactly what we want. Fire all teachers regardless of qualifications may work somewhat in elementary. Won't fly in secondary unless you want the swarm of history majors teaching math, physics and construction.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

You are probably right that most parents would not want such a drastic step taken, TODAY! Still, I can't help but think that more parents are against the teachers and that the number keeps growing every time we have a conflict.

Meanwhile, it sure seems the teachers' union leadership just doesn't give a damn! Some of the actions they are taking would seem to prove that.

The trend of parents being resentful of teachers' union tactics is plain. The only question is how far and how fast will it grow? Maybe it will change, I don't know. All I DO know is that if teachers truly believe that the majority of parents support them then they are dreaming in technicolour.

Odd... The only poll I saw done had more support for the Teacher's than the governent. Wasn't a majority but, even 45% support was higher than I expected.

[CPCFTW]

Yep. that's exactly what we want. Fire all teachers regardless of qualifications may work somewhat in elementary. Won't fly in secondary unless you want the swarm of history majors teaching math, physics and construction.

Are you saying all teachers are strikers?

Also there are a swarm of majors with every degree looking for jobs. I don't think there would be any shortage if we removed the unnecessary 1yr teacher's college barrier to entry.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Are you saying all teachers are strikers?

Also there are a swarm of majors with every degree looking for jobs. I don't think there would be any shortage if we removed the unnecessary 1yr teacher's college barrier to entry.

Newsflash: teachers voted something like 92% in favour of strike action.

How many engineers who are already in demand... are going to be flocking to this 40k/year job that will not take into account their years of experience? Especially knowing that conservative minded people want them to be paid dirt... Good luck. You'll get unqualified hacks like the Catholic system hires out of the wazoo.

[Bonam]

Also there are a swarm of majors with every degree looking for jobs.

Not really. Many people with technical degrees get snapped up before they even graduate from college, and are set with high paying, flexible and intellectually rewarding jobs.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Bonam

[CPCFTW]

Newsflash: teachers voted something like 92% in favour of strike action.

How many engineers who are already in demand... are going to be flocking to this 40k/year job that will not take into account their years of experience? Especially knowing that conservative minded people want them to be paid dirt... Good luck. You'll get unqualified hacks like the Catholic system hires out of the wazoo.

Ok we will have few engineer grads to pick from. Your point? Are there many engineer grads teaching now?

There would be plenty of capable grads willing to teach grade school to high school. This isn't rocket science.

[Bonam]

There would be plenty of capable grads willing to teach grade school to high school. This isn't rocket science.

Well, the reality is, having an entire school's teacher population restaffed with fresh grads would not be a smooth transition. Generally, when people get a new job, they are able to get guidance and mentoring from coworkers who have been working there for years and know have everything goes. Same is true for teachers. If you replace everyone all at once, there is no one for new workers to learn from.

That is not to say that it would be impossible to do, you could certainly do it if it were necessary, but it would not be a simple thing.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Bonam

[CPCFTW]

Well, the reality is, having an entire school's teacher population restaffed with fresh grads would not be a smooth transition. Generally, when people get a new job, they are able to get guidance and mentoring from coworkers who have been working there for years and know have everything goes. Same is true for teachers. If you replace everyone all at once, there is no one for new workers to learn from.

That is not to say that it would be impossible to do, you could certainly do it if it were necessary, but it would not be a simple thing.

I'm thinking that some of the striking teachers will come to their senses when they're unemployed.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I'm thinking that some of the striking teachers will come to their senses when they're unemployed.

Why don't we just fire overpaid executives, there are plenty of underlings just waiting to replace them.Open up the playing field and lower their wages by half.

Why don't we just fire everyone who makes a good living wage and rehire them at minimum? Plenty of people to replace them when everyone is fired.

Bunch of leeches on the corporate profit teat. Disgusting.

Edited November 2, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Mr.Canada]

Why don't we just fire overpaid executives

Can we please fire the teachers and hire new ones for cheaper. Also then we don't have to pay for benefits for a few months. Lots of money saved. I'm tired of the teachers holding us ransom every few years, it's disgusting. they keep demanding more and more money for less and less work. Fire them and outlaw the teachers union. problem solved.

[Michael Hardner]

CPCFTW and Mr Canada - a question:

Why do we continually waste bandwidth on such issues talking about fantasy policies like this ? Wild Bill has already put the question of mass firings out on this thread, and he did it in a straightforward way. We discussed the option to fire teachers already. So, after reading that, most should understand why "fire the teachers" doesn't make sense as a strategy in itself.

If you were really interested in firing the teachers, if it were a real discussion, then you'd be talking about how to change the constitution and laws to reduce the power of organized labour. It's a long and stepwise process to achieve this, with a lot of strategy to be undertaken at each step.

But by just saying "let's fire the teachers", you're making the discussion into something that's not real at all - can't you see that ?

[CPCFTW]

CPCFTW and Mr Canada - a question:

Why do we continually waste bandwidth on such issues talking about fantasy policies like this ? Wild Bill has already put the question of mass firings out on this thread, and he did it in a straightforward way. We discussed the option to fire teachers already. So, after reading that, most should understand why "fire the teachers" doesn't make sense as a strategy in itself.

If you were really interested in firing the teachers, if it were a real discussion, then you'd be talking about how to change the constitution and laws to reduce the power of organized labour. It's a long and stepwise process to achieve this, with a lot of strategy to be undertaken at each step.

But by just saying "let's fire the teachers", you're making the discussion into something that's not real at all - can't you see that ?

You asked me. Don't ask if you don't want an answer. I definitely don't agree that it is that difficult to fire all the teachers.. But it's heavy-handed, and most politicians don't want to appear tyrranical.

[CPCFTW]

Why don't we just fire overpaid executives, there are plenty of underlings just waiting to replace them.Open up the playing field and lower their wages by half.

Why don't we just fire everyone who makes a good living wage and rehire them at minimum? Plenty of people to replace them when everyone is fired.

Bunch of leeches on the corporate profit teat. Disgusting.

What a nonsensical argument. Are you seriously comparing private sector executives to public sector teachers?

[The_Squid]

You asked me. Don't ask if you don't want an answer. I definitely don't agree that it is that difficult to fire all the teachers.. But it's heavy-handed, and most politicians don't want to appear tyrranical.

No, it is pure fantasy. They have bargaining rights. You can't fire someone for exercising a legal right. Pure right wing fantasy with no basis in reality.

[Wayward Son]

No, it is pure fantasy. They have bargaining rights. You can't fire someone for exercising a legal right. Pure right wing fantasy with no basis in reality.

I agree. It is pure fantasy. I often hear (twice on this thread by both Wild Bill and Mr Canada) about Reagan firing the air traffic controllers and how the same thing could be done with the teachers. Either these people are living in a fantasy world, or they have little understanding of what actually happened with PATCO.

I side with Reagan on the PATCO firing. The air traffic controllers initiated an illegal strike. They did so despite having signed an oath to never strike. And they remained on strike past the 48 hour deadline which Reagan gave them to return to their jobs. He had warned them in no uncertain terms that they would be fired if they did not return to their jobs by that deadline. In the US Reagan could also use the 1947 Taft–Hartley Act. I know of nothing similar here.

I sympathize with the workers who were fired. They had been receiving a raw deal for years working a job where they were overworked, understaffed, and underpaid (this was recognized by Reagan himself during the 1980 campaign). At the same time the workers had over the years fought to make aviation safer, and a lot of improvements had been made in the past because of them. They had been negotiating for about 8 months at the time. They had won large wage and benefit increases. They were at the same time continuing to push for better working conditions (which I feel were legitimate in many of their demands, but not all) and even better wages and benefits. Reagan’s administration supported their position enough that he had overstepped the FAA and offered further wage increases (which I believe were about $10,000 a year in increases – in 1981, probably the equivalent of $30,000 today). Reagan supported the rights of the workers to both be unionized and to bargain. While he did not support strikes by unions and union members who are public sector and deemed to be essential for public safety reasons, he did support the right of other unions to strike. Those who have since used Reagan’s action to attack union rights to unionize and bargain such as Governor Walker are misrepresenting Reagan and the event completely.

It should also be said that Reagan’s decision cost a lot of money. I am ok with that, as I think that sometimes it is costly to uphold the law. For starters, since that time air traffic controllers have been paid at the level (in comparison to a certain level of airline pilots) that PATCO had been fighting for. Their benefits are very good, possibly better than PATCO ever asked for. When management is forced to work on the front-line (as they were after PATCO for months, or even years in some cases) they often discover fairly quickly that the improvements in working conditions that they had been so virulently opposed to, now all the sudden make a whole lot of sense. The government lost thousands of employees who they had spent 3 years training, and now had to train thousands more. And for those who hate unions, the air traffic controllers unionized again within a couple years. The costs to the government were several fold more than giving into ALL of the union’s demands (and things probably could have been settled by giving into 20 or 30% of their demands, but all in all the firing of the ATCs is estimated to have cost a couple billion dollars, whereas giving into all of PATCOs demands would have cost about 700 million, and the reality is that a deal would have likely been agreed to costing the government 100 – 200 million).

That is not a criticism of Reagan or his administration, as I said earlier that respecting the law often costs more money. I am not a fan of Reagan at all. I sympathize with situation the air traffic controllers were in. However, I still side with Reagan on this issue. Legally it was very clear cut.

For the same reasons I side with the teachers. The teachers are not breaking the law, I can’t say for sure what the courts will decide about the legality of McGuinty’s actions but if I was a betting person I would not risk my money on McGuinty. Several times on here someone has posted part of the bill which shows that the legislation took away from teachers rights that all Ontarians are supposed to have, as well as the bill attempting to leave the teachers with no legal route to challenge an action being imposed on them. I have seen no one dispute that, instead the posters just ignore it. None of this was needed. Teachers had already agreed to a pay freeze (and a 1.5% cut the following year) as well as a reduction in benefits. However, McGuinty and his government are bullies, who are thoroughly unethical and corrupt. I have been unfortunate enough to deal with them myself and can say that I have nothing positive to say about this 100% morally bankrupt group of people. That is not due to political allegiance, as I have voted Liberal, PC, NDP or Green depending on the local candidate. I view the actions of this government against the teachers to be pure dog whistle politics. An avalanche of lies against one group of people because 1) said group is not popular with another segment of the population 2) and government has so little respect for Ontarians that they are willing to lie and attack one group in the hopes that doing so will win them an extra seat in the by-elections and therefore their coveted majority. I find such actions to be thoroughly disgusting. Those who do so are bottom feeders who should never be allowed to serve political office. And those who support such actions should be ashamed of themselves.

Some people feel that teachers have it too good. I have no opinion. I am not a teacher, nor do I know any teachers well enough to actually know what they get, what they have to put up with, and what they give. However, if you think they should have less then it is your responsibility to deal with that legally. To either bargain harder against them (by which I mean electing a government that would do so) or by changing the laws in this country.

[Wild Bill]

Some people feel that teachers have it too good. I have no opinion. I am not a teacher, nor do I know any teachers well enough to actually know what they get, what they have to put up with, and what they give. However, if you think they should have less then it is your responsibility to deal with that legally. To either bargain harder against them (by which I mean electing a government that would do so) or by changing the laws in this country.

I made no claims about legalities. I simply suggested some possible scenarios and fully expected some or all to be shot down by those more knowledgeable. I appreciate the history lesson about Reagan and the controllers.

My point was that when public opinion turns strongly enough against teachers such issues become possible political tools for more votes. What's more, it doesn't always matter what is legal or not. A politician could fire teachers or at least do something very negative towards them which would not stand up in court, knowing that even when the government lost the teachers would have been severely hurt. Meanwhile, if it brought in enough votes the politician and his party would not care about the expense of a settlement!

Again, as I had said, look at McGuinty's government! They cheerfully blew in excess of $240 MILLION dollars to squash building a power station that they themselves had initiated, at a point in construction where the actual generators were being delivered! All this just to TRY to avoid losing ONE seat in an election!

Do you really think they would care about illegal moves against the teachers in order to reap more votes? Didn't they already do some things if not illegal at least unethical in their negotiations with the teachers?

It all depends on the politics of a situation, not necessarily the legalities. Joe Average really doesn't care about legalities if he thinks the Law is wrong. He believes that the Law is supposed to represent the will of the people and that the government is the instrument of that will.

This of course is naive but I believe it is true! Most people are NOT legal nitpicking MLW academics!

We Canadians for the most part are a very complacent people, often compared to sheep. However, many times in the past we have shown that we do have limits. Sometimes we get riled about things that seem trivial. Remember when the cable tv companies tried to get away with negative billing? When we do get stirred up we tend to do it en masse.

I am simply pointing out that from the outside it looks like the teachers are being led by an old-fashioned autoworkers union that considers public support to be irrelevant. There is a LOT of parental resentment out there! Perhaps they should be more upset with their government but for whatever reason they just don't seem to be taking the teachers' side.

This means that politicians can win votes by screwing the teachers. How badly they can screw them is up for debate.

We should also not ignore the converse. A government appearing to have been soft towards the teachers' demands can LOSE votes if that is contrary to how significant portions of the electorate are feeling! The Teachers' Union may feel it can ignore popular sentiment but politicians do not have the same luxury. Expecting a politician to lose votes just to give you what you want is frankly rather stupid!

I'm not arguing a legal blueprint for the government here. Please don't attack my model instead of my point.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Wild Bill