There are spies among us - CND Navy Intelligence gives info to Russia.

[Argus]

The Americans had wikileaks, I don't think they have much ground to complain about, not that this is a small deal since this traitor had access to information on the naval activities, movement and potentially strategy of the United States, United Kingdom, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand navies.

Wikileaks was nothing. It was lightly classified stuff that embarrassed a few diplomats. What the Russians got was all kinds of information on signals intelligence, on contacts, names and addresses of intelligence officers and department heads, on what we knew (and all the Five Eyes knew) about Russian criminal organizations (ie their ties to the Kremlin) and much much more. Wikileaks was chump change. I don't know why this guy wasn't charged with treason and shot.

[login]

Wikileaks was nothing. It was lightly classified stuff that embarrassed a few diplomats. What the Russians got was all kinds of information on signals intelligence, on contacts, names and addresses of intelligence officers and department heads, on what we knew (and all the Five Eyes knew) about Russian criminal organizations (ie their ties to the Kremlin) and much much more. Wikileaks was chump change. I don't know why this guy wasn't charged with treason and shot.

I think anyone who gives a first term intel officer access to non duties specific intel is just a lack of intel to start with if it isn't filled with misinformation for a non need to know authorized clearanced context...

it is stupid to give full clearance to a first term officer if it is senstive and not need to know.

Its just idiocy there would be open access to sensitive information like that, I don't beleive it, I don't think 5I is that stupid. And are you really going to trust intel from a group that stupid...?

If I were 5I I would have filled the data with misinformation to cause disruption on the Russian side if they acted on faulty intel. Sow discord in the ranks etc..

It is just absurd.

Rules of Intel:

1. Compromising Data doesn't exist.

2. Sensitive Data should be limited to those who need to know.

3. Top Secret or Above should be for closed facilities only.

4. People should be limited to access information that is required for their operational duties.

I am very suprised a first term Naval Intel Officer would be exposed to compromosing or sensitive data, or given access to classified information that was non operational in scope, or that clearance wasn't granted for. Trust and Loyalty doesn't equate non dissimination.

The info above is somewhat suprising if it is true, not because someone gave it away but because someone in their first term of service had access to confidential data like peoples addresses which I couldn't see as being operational for a Naval Intelligence Officer, but maybe I dont see it. That to me should have immediately triggered a flag higher up.

Edited October 13, 2012 by login

[Signals.Cpl]

I think anyone who gives a first term intel officer access to non duties specific intel is just a lack of intel to start with if it isn't filled with misinformation for a non need to know authorized clearanced context...

How certain are you that the information was non-duty?

it is stupid to give full clearance to a first term officer if it is senstive and not need to know.

Top Secret clearance combined with need to know led to this, he had access in order to do his job.

Its just idiocy there would be open access to sensitive information like that, I don't beleive it, I don't think 5I is that stupid. And are you really going to trust intel from a group that stupid...?

What are you talking about?

If I were 5I I would have filled the data with misinformation to cause disruption on the Russian side if they acted on faulty intel. Sow discord in the ranks etc..

And what happens to our side? We put disinformation in our network to misinform the Russians in the off chance that they are spying? What happened here is an isolated case, making all of our intel useless because we are afraid someone will see it seems to be an over reaction.

It is just absurd.

Rules of Intel:

1. Compromising Data doesn't exist.

2. Sensitive Data should be limited to those who need to know.

3. Top Secret or Above should be for closed facilities only.

4. People should be limited to access information that is required for their operational duties.

1)What are you talking about?

2)He needed to know, it was his job.

3)What?

What was his job? Bringing timmies?

I am very suprised a first term Naval Intel Officer would be exposed to compromosing or sensitive data, or given access to classified information that was non operational in scope, or that clearance wasn't granted for. Trust and Loyalty doesn't equate non dissimination.

He had the clearance, and he had the need to know therefore he was given access. You are assuming he had no need to access the information, and shouldn't have been given duties in his field for the first “term” which as a concept is stupid beyond belief which points to you have absolutely zero idea as to what you are talking about.

The info above is somewhat suprising if it is true, not because someone gave it away but because someone in their first term of service had access to confidential data like peoples addresses which I couldn't see as being operational for a Naval Intelligence Officer, but maybe I dont see it. That to me should have immediately triggered a flag higher up.

What is the point of time in a career that a member will be immune to betraying his/her country? He signed up for a job, he was allowed the resources to do the job, and he chose to betray his country he chose to betray Canada, and saying that he would have made a different choice if he were given access after his first 4 or 6 years is ignorant if you are willing to betray your country now it likely wont change much unless his personal situation changed.

[Mr.Canada]

This man is a traitor and deserves to be hung by his neck until dead. Too bad the military removed it in 1998.

[carepov]

This man is a traitor and deserves to be hung by his neck until dead. Too bad the military removed it in 1998.

Yes! Also, we should deport this traitor and his whole family back to where he came from! How could we allow such a traitorous bloodline into our country!

[Guest Derek L]

And what happens to our side? We put disinformation in our network to misinform the Russians in the off chance that they are spying? What happened here is an isolated case, making all of our intel useless because we are afraid someone will see it seems to be an over reaction.

Disinformation is used all the time...........See the Shkval

[Signals.Cpl]

Disinformation is used all the time...........See the Shkval

Not to such a degree as to make any and all intelligence useless because the people who need to know have to spend enormous amounts of time deciphering what is real and what is disinformation thereby making any timely action impossible.

[login]

How certain are you that the information was non-duty?

What does Canada need to know about the Russian's there is a hunk of ice seperating us.. jk.

Honestly I don't know, but I would be suprised him going to the Russian Embassy wouldn't be a flag if his area of intelligence involved every aspect of Russia. Him just showing up at the Russian Embassy would have been a flag.

Top Secret clearance combined with need to know led to this, he had access in order to do his job.

I am very suprised he had need to know based on the breadth of the information reported to be leaked. I don't beleive this. Also why would you give top secret clearance to a first term officer? I don't understand that.

What are you talking about?

That a first term officer would have access to international intelligence that was sensitive in nature. I would expect need to know information being screened and audited, particularly if sensitive information on Russia were accessed that they didn't come into contact with any foreign nationals without clearance, or those foreign individuals being security screened and monitored.

And what happens to our side?

"Corrections" provided after audits, I don't beleive that in non emergency situations open access is required. While it is possible for carear solidiers to still defect or otherwise I would consider that to be less likely. Infiltration would also be less.

We put disinformation in our network to misinform the Russians in the off chance that they are spying?

or the database is captured or information is leaked, or individuals are tortured for intel, or info is mined by other means. Fact is I bet most info in there wouldn't be needed except for long term ops and that should be able to be screened through auditing and assessment of data for specific usages.

What happened here is an isolated case, making all of our intel useless because we are afraid someone will see it seems to be an over reaction.

Most intel is useless. If people want to get books out for study time they should be screened on need to know as well as superior approval for clearance of non required intel being exposed to a larger audience. You don't just share sensitive information and not put safegaurds in place to deal with fallout, that is just irresponsible.

1)What are you talking about?

You don't keep compromising data.

2)He needed to know, it was his job.

No I don't think he needed to know, unless you count that $3000 bonus for leaking intel as part of his job, in that case I might agree.

This was data mass backed up onto a USB stick (press reported floppy disk to get the old folks on side), fact is USB sticks should not be coming in or leaving Canadian Intel locations without screening and security put in place.

3)What?

You shouldn't be moving secret information out of secure facilities.

What was his job? Bringing timmies?

As far as I'm aware his job was assessing statistical information on sealanes regarded to sensor monitoring, but I really don't know.

I don't see what that has to do with Russian Mafia links to the Kremlin.

He had the clearance, and he had the need to know therefore he was given access. You are assuming he had no need to access the information, and shouldn't have been given duties in his field for the first “term” which as a concept is stupid beyond belief which points to you have absolutely zero idea as to what you are talking about.

No, I'm saying it is too easy and too broadly dissiminated needlessly, without sufficient safegaurds or oversights.

What is the point of time in a career that a member will be immune to betraying his/her country?

About 12 to 16 years of service, with 20-25+ being ideal. With a virus inside.

He signed up for a job, he was allowed the resources to do the job, and he chose to betray his country he chose to betray Canada, and saying that he would have made a different choice if he were given access after his first 4 or 6 years is ignorant if you are willing to betray your country now it likely wont change much unless his personal situation changed.

I do think it is too easy, I know of many people in the Forces and their background and I do think it is too easy. Based upon a general impression I do think that sensitive data especially data that needs to be analized should be kept in secure facilities and recording and capture equipment should not be allowed in those facilities, for that matter no electronics brought in. Defence contractors are in the habit of employing these same requirements so I don't see why top secret secure access sites shouldn't also be secure as such.

Also all data should be flagged for review by superior or screening officer, example officers should have non specific screeing officer to asssess and audit, that is ask why information is accessed periodically. But no, never should a USB stick have been allowed to even be able to get into a computer without some type of superior oversight in a non emergency setting that would include USB slots blocked off taped over etc..

Also information doesn't need to be "materially accurate" to be useful for training purposes.. You just need to insure that information is able to be ammened when it is required. ex. names palces can be changed the magnitude or other aspects, like wise parallels can be applied - however general intel and special information that would be at a top secret level are two entirely different things.

Edited October 15, 2012 by login

[Guest Derek L]

Not to such a degree as to make any and all intelligence useless because the people who need to know have to spend enormous amounts of time deciphering what is real and what is disinformation thereby making any timely action impossible.

Not if the people that need to know are also creating the “disinformation”………….Counterintelligence, Counter surveillance etc etc Are all just as important as gathering intelligence etc……….Like a self diagnostic if you will………….But like I said earlier, the level of information that this guy could have obtained at HMCS Trinity would be limited to some degrees, and though not trivial, not catastrophic either.

[Signals.Cpl]

What does Canada need to know about the Russian's there is a hunk of ice seperating us.. jk.

Honestly I don't know, but I would be suprised him going to the Russian Embassy wouldn't be a flag if his area of intelligence involved every aspect of Russia. Him just showing up at the Russian Embassy would have been a flag.

This is not a movie, there are no RCMP/CSIS agents following his every move therefore his movements to and from the Russian Embassy would not be known. As part of various alliances we have to gather intelligence on issues wether they are of personal concern to us or not.

I am very suprised he had need to know based on the breadth of the information reported to be leaked.

You have no way to know what he needed to know or did not need to know because the CF will not release that information and at this point you are grasping at straws.

I don't beleive this. Also why would you give top secret clearance to a first term officer? I don't understand that.

He has been a member of the CF since 1996, waiting 4 more years would not have changed his situation or his allegiances.

That a first term officer would have access to international intelligence that was sensitive in nature.

Its not first “term” officer, he was not elected to office. He had a job, he was given the tools to do his job and he chose to betray his country for a small sum of money as I said above waiting 4 more years wouldn't have changed his loyalty by much, after all he was in the military for 11 years before he betrayed his country.

I would expect need to know information being screened and audited, particularly if sensitive information on Russia were accessed that they didn't come into contact with any foreign nationals without clearance, or those foreign individuals being security screened and monitored.

Monitored? Like having RCMP officers following him everywhere? Tapping his home phone, cell phone and work phone? Bugging his residence, car and office? That only happens in movies, and the issue with that is who will make sure that the people following him wont sell the information? After all if we have 100 Intelligence officers, and we have 500 RCMP officers following those intelligence officers now we just increased the people in the know by several hundred percent...

"Corrections" provided after audits, I don't beleive that in non emergency situations open access is required. While it is possible for carear solidiers to still defect or otherwise I would consider that to be less likely. Infiltration would also be less.

So you think it is a good idea putting false information on a network designed to share the intelligence between the member nations? So if I needed to use a piece of intelligence, I would have to worry about its validity not only on the gathering end, but wether or not my side is feeding me bullshit?

or the database is captured or information is leaked,

I would assume someone thought long and hard on how to keep the database physically safe.

or individuals are tortured for intel,

And you think feeding our people should prevent this hypothetical scenario? If I am going in to battle, I want to know that I have the best available intelligence which would give me the best chance to see my family again. Sitting in some godforsaken place about to walk in to god knows what wondering wether the intelligence I am acting on is not complete bullshit some officer is feeding me because he is given false information through the network meant to make intelligence more accessible?

or info is mined by other means.

I would rather risk one guy leaking this information and causing problems than hundreds of soldiers, sailors and aircrew dying because the member nations are withholding or knowingly putting bullshit information in the network in order to prevent leaks. So you want to solve a relatively rare problem by causing massive damage to our intelligence gathering and distribution infrastructure?

Fact is I bet most info in there wouldn't be needed except for long term ops and that should be able to be screened through auditing and assessment of data for specific usages.

Fact is neither of us is privy to the infomration or its potential use therefore negating this remark.

Most intel is useless.

I know some people who would disagree.

If people want to get books out for study time they should be screened on need to know as well as superior approval for clearance of non required intel being exposed to a larger audience.

You really really have no idea what you are talking about do you?

You don't just share sensitive information and not put safegaurds in place to deal with fallout, that is just irresponsible.

The CF has plenty of safeguards put in to place, sometimes they fail as those safeguards were designed by people and could be voided by people. You are making an assumption that is 100% wrong, there are safeguards no matter what security clearance you have you would have no acess to information you don’t need.

You don't keep compromising data.

How many times has this happened in Canada in the last 20 years?

No I don't think he needed to know,

What was his exact job? What did he need to know? In what field was he involved?

unless you count that $3000 bonus for leaking intel as part of his job, in that case I might agree.

You don't know what his job was, I don’t know what his job was, and you seem to lack any form of knowledge about the subject so...

This was data mass backed up onto a USB stick (press reported floppy disk to get the old folks on side), fact is USB sticks should not be coming in or leaving Canadian Intel locations without screening and security put in place.

There are security protocols put in place with regards to USB and other form of data storage, obviously this traitor found a way around it.

As far as I'm aware his job was assessing statistical information on sealanes regarded to sensor monitoring, but I really don't know.

I don't see what that has to do with Russian Mafia links to the Kremlin.

You don’t know his job description and neither do I. What a newspaper said he did, and what he actually did most likely are two completely different things.

No, I'm saying it is too easy and too broadly dissiminated needlessly, without sufficient safegaurds or oversights.

Yes because you are in the know on this subject right? One guy does not constitute a structural problem with the organization it means he found a loophole he used to get around the safeguards and you can rest assured that any holes will be plugged soon if they have not been plugged already.

About 12 to 16 years of service, with 20-25+ being ideal. With a virus inside.

Any scientific data to back this up? Because I can point to quite a few American cases where they betrayed their country even with 20 years service. And what would those officers with less than 20 years of service do? Deliver Timmies? What about the countless NCM’s who deal with top level intelligence? What do we do with them?

I do think it is too easy, I know of many people in the Forces and their background and I do think it is too easy.

Reality and what you THINK are two very different things. I have been in the military for 5 and a half years now and I can tell you what you are imagining here and reality do not match by a loooooong shot.

Based upon a general impression I do think that sensitive data especially data that needs to be analized should be kept in secure facilities and recording and capture equipment should not be allowed in those facilities, for that matter no electronics brought in.

You don’t know shit, because those in the know will not be discussing their jobs with anybody who does not need to know.

Defence contractors are in the habit of employing these same requirements so I don't see why top secret secure access sites shouldn't also be secure as such.

What on earth are you going on about?

Also all data should be flagged for review by superior or screening officer, example officers should have non specific screeing officer to asssess and audit, that is ask why information is accessed periodically. But no, never should a USB stick have been allowed to even be able to get into a computer without some type of superior oversight in a non emergency setting that would include USB slots blocked off taped over etc..

Non issued sticks cannot be used in military computers without prior clearance by higher, if they are used without clearance by higher and by extension technical oversight the station is immediately shut down and account is locked until the user explains their actions. Seems to me that you read too many books from people who like yourself don't know what they are talking about.

Also information doesn't need to be "materially accurate" to be useful for training purposes..

Says who? What proof can you present to support this garbage argument?

You just need to insure that information is able to be ammened when it is required. ex. names palces can be changed the magnitude or other aspects, like wise parallels can be applied - however general intel and special information that would be at a top secret level are two entirely different things.

Intelligence should be available when needed, and intelligence networks are not wikipedia where anyone and everyone is allowed access and allowed to change information as they please...

[Signals.Cpl]

Not if the people that need to know are also creating the “disinformation”………….Counterintelligence, Counter surveillance etc etc Are all just as important as gathering intelligence etc……….Like a self diagnostic if you will………….But like I said earlier, the level of information that this guy could have obtained at HMCS Trinity would be limited to some degrees, and though not trivial, not catastrophic either.

I understand what you are saying, but the way I understood the suggestion it meant spreading false information in our own network which would negate the purpose because when you log in and have to wonder if its right or someone is spreading disinformation that source of information becomes useless.

[Guest Derek L]

I understand what you are saying, but the way I understood the suggestion it meant spreading false information in our own network which would negate the purpose because when you log in and have to wonder if its right or someone is spreading disinformation that source of information becomes useless.

Indeed, I'm not sure if he understands his own suggestion........Such is life

If you have access to the DIN there’s a lot more on the two differing branches……………And if you’re thinking of a career change, more specific information for both Officers and Non-Commissioned ranks and component transfers……..The Intelligence Branch would love to re-role a person in Signals (Bilingual?) into a INT OP……….Other than class B & C’s, not sure if they take A’s form the PRes though.

[Signals.Cpl]

Indeed, I'm not sure if he understands his own suggestion........Such is life

If you have access to the DIN there’s a lot more on the two differing branches……………And if you’re thinking of a career change, more specific information for both Officers and Non-Commissioned ranks and component transfers……..The Intelligence Branch would love to re-role a person in Signals (Bilingual?) into a INT OP……….Other than class B & C’s, not sure if they take A’s form the PRes though.

Already did a CT to the Reg Force 2 years ago so no class A for me anymore:)

[Guest Derek L]

Already did a CT to the Reg Force 2 years ago so no class A for me anymore:)

There you go.........So Toronto eh? Borden? 70 Comm Group?

I hear you singing in the wire

[Signals.Cpl]

There you go.........So Toronto eh? Borden? 70 Comm Group?

I hear you singing in the wire

Actually RCAF, currently doing college in Toronto. Another few months and I am out of here.

[Guest Derek L]

Actually RCAF, currently doing college in Toronto. Another few months and I am out of here.

At least you picked the right service

[Signals.Cpl]

At least you picked the right service

Thats not what the RSM said...