wyly Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 We're talking about private sector employment. Everyone knows the public sector has no issue employing people with those degrees... the private sector as well, just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there...do people walk around the office with their educational credentials pinned on their shirt?...if you need a professional presentation of a report or research paper put together you won't find anyone better for the assignment than a history major, it's what they do, they're experts at documentation...teaching history is only a small part of the discipline...a combined history/law or history/political science degree both have obvious benefits... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 We have one of the best educated OECD nations. So why are our youth lacking the "proper" skills? This is a question that needs seriously reflection. Because the metrics that quantify how "educated" a nation is for a job do not include how well this education fits with the types of job opportunities that are available. A nation may have 100% of people with PhDs in art history, and would show as very very educated, and yet most of these highly educated individuals would lack the "proper" skills for the jobs available. if you need a professional presentation of a report or research paper put together you won't find anyone better for the assignment than a history major, it's what they do, they're experts at documentation I would love to see a history major try to "put together" a presentation, report, or paper about what I do. No, the reality is one needs writing skills, but one also needs to have a deep understanding of what one is writing about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I doubt that even business, engineering and such even graduate the right number of new grads to fill those jobs. How many professional jobs are there for new hires today ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I doubt that even business, engineering and such even graduate the right number of new grads to fill those jobs. How many professional jobs are there for new hires today ? I know a good many science graduates that can't find work and chemists (with honours) that are sifting dirt for little more than minimum wage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 the private sector as well, just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there...do people walk around the office with their educational credentials pinned on their shirt?...if you need a professional presentation of a report or research paper put together you won't find anyone better for the assignment than a history major, it's what they do, they're experts at documentation...teaching history is only a small part of the discipline...a combined history/law or history/political science degree both have obvious benefits... A research report is best prepared by a grad from the related field of research. A history grad has no advantage over any other liberal arts major in this regard. They're all highly trained in reading and footnoting, which has extremely limited applications in the real working world. The coffee shops near work here are full of history and geography majors. They make great barristas. If I want to present a report on 12th century Byzantium, sure, I'll hire a history grad. If I want to present a report on trans-fats, that history grad would probably be the last person I'd look at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 In my view the government has simply failed to inspire us, as if they ever have. I do not believe the government has much control over the economies of this world.Therefore I don't think they can and or will do very much for us. The government can and does play with monetary policy everyonce and a while, but their track record is not very helpfull. Their attempts at monetary matters are usually defferd to committees and groups, well hidden from public view. The banks are the real governments,and we need to deal with that reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I doubt that even business, engineering and such even graduate the right number of new grads to fill those jobs. How many professional jobs are there for new hires today?I think the problem with university is specialization. If we think of what society needs it is a large number of people that can understand and follow the scientific method and be able to write complex ideas coherently and clearly. Society also needs a smaller number of specialists who are extremely good at a narrow field. It makes no sense to push people with no real ability in STEM through STEM degrees since they would not likely be good at the jobs that require these skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I think the problem with university is specialization. If we think of what society needs it is a large number of people that can understand and follow the scientific method and be able to write complex ideas coherently and clearly. Society also needs a smaller number of specialists who are extremely good at a narrow field. I'm not so sure about that. Most employers, when looking to hire for technical positions, look for people with specialized skillsets. Of course, writing complex ideas clearly is an important part of the job for scientists and engineers just as it is for businessmen and lawyers. And these skills are being emphasized more and more in engineering degrees. For example, as part of my undergrad, I took 2 english courses, 2 technical writing courses, and every single engineering and science course I took had projects, reports, presentations, papers, etc, that we had to write. But these skills can and should exist alongside a specialized technical skillset. It makes no sense to push people with no real ability in STEM through STEM degrees since they would not likely be good at the jobs that require these skills. True. I don't think anyone is proposing pushing people with no aptitude for math and science through STEM degrees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 AHEM.... I found this in your "Original" post: And I quote.."archeology, probably every major energy corporation in Alberta has archeologists on staff" Now, below, And in actually reading past your fine Bolding and Underlining, You will note that there is additional text... Again, to my fine point about Tera consulting... The 7 people whom i know pretty well and can attest to the low level of activity they have. Ellis Don, and PCL do NOT have archeologists on site.. I have confirmed that just this morning over bagels and crumpets with them.. You really need to get out and explore this country.. Ask questions! Take media for what its worth! Fortify that mind with real-hand knowledge. And thanks for correcting my spelling.... Its cumbersome on a Blackbery Playbook.. Your insults are taken with a grain of salt. Im rubber, your glue.. ya genius an archeologist on site -"the Alberta Historical Resources Act, when any project risks damaging a historic resource, known or unknown, the person or company undertaking the activity is required to conduct a Heritage Resource Impact Assessment (HRIA) at their own expense." those companies who do not have in house archeologists must hire private subcontractors who are qualified consulting archeologists. Every province in Canada has similar Acts. your credentials -judging by your previous posts and I'd be astounded if you had completed grade school... your lack of critical thinking certainly isn't equivalent of high school graduate... I hope you appreciate my correcting your spelling... my credentials btw I'm an Electro-Cardiologist, I graduated from Harvard, IQ 180, I married Miss universe and make a million dollars per year, and I employ people like yourself to work in my garden...we can all be so awesome on the internet can't we ... and tell me genius when a lawyer, MD, political science major, theologian requires a philosophy component to complete a degree who do you suppose is qualified to teach that class ? a teacher? engineer? sociologist? psychologist? MD? ... duh surprise! a philosophy prof, i bet you never saw that coming did you genius... and try sound out these big words s-l-o-w-l-y they are all related careers from the discipline of anthropology/archeology Applied Anthropologist, Archeologist,Biological Anthropologist, Cultural Anthropologist, Forensic Anthropologist, Linguistic Anthropologist, Medical Anthropologist, Research Anthropologist, Social Anthropologist...and take those big words and do a google and you may just be able to comprehend what they do...maybe now you can hop into your pickup and go to work and tell the rest of the boys on the road crew you learned something new today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraychik Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Sigh... Have they ever truly worked in favour of the average person? Get the money to the top and watch it "trickle down" has never really worked that way. "Trickle down economics" is a nonsense term coined by Bush Sr. in a desperate attempt to defeat Reagan. It's a pop culture term used by the ignorant in order to misrepresent free markets. The irony is, of course, that the socialism you believe in is the true "trickle down economics". Romney seemed to coin a new term during the debate, "trickle down government". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) ost employers, when looking to hire for technical positions, look for people with specialized skillsets.And many times the skill set is so narrow it can only be learned on the job. Part of the issue is companies do not want to invest in training anymore. They want to hire people who have already been doing the exact same job. This creates a chicken and egg problem that cannot be solved by the public educational system.True. I don't think anyone is proposing pushing people with no aptitude for math and science through STEM degrees.Well that is what is implied when people say "don't get an arts degree".Connecting the labour force with the job market cannot be done by general purpose institutions. There has to be a new partnership with industry where industry takes responsibility for training the workers it needs and the government supports this effort in some way. Edited October 10, 2012 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraychik Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Because the metrics that quantify how "educated" a nation is for a job do not include how well this education fits with the types of job opportunities that are available. A nation may have 100% of people with PhDs in art history, and would show as very very educated, and yet most of these highly educated individuals would lack the "proper" skills for the jobs available. Absolutely, cybercoma is unable to look critically at OECD ratings and realise that they don't take into consideration important variables you just mentioned. Take a look at a university catalogue today and compare it to one from the fifties. Look at all the nonsense we now offer (all a function of increasing government "investment" in education): women's studies, international development, conflict resolution, African studies, social justice, etc. And we wonder why we're importing professionals with real technical skills. I would love to see a history major try to "put together" a presentation, report, or paper about what I do. No, the reality is one needs writing skills, but one also needs to have a deep understanding of what one is writing about. Writing skills are overrated, anyways. We don't need a nation of wordsmiths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraychik Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I know a good many science graduates that can't find work and chemists (with honours) that are sifting dirt for little more than minimum wage. Either they have less valuable science degrees (economics, where they can do analysis for a bank for a moderate salary) or they don't know how to look for work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) Maybe they should have investigated the "Job Market" prior to investing in a feild with no jobs?? Queens Universiy has this class as well.. What are the job prospects here ya think? Enrole Now! RELS-237*/0.5 Religion and Film 3L/S How religion is portrayed in film; particularly the depiction of religious belief, practices, practitioners, and institutions, and the use of religious symbols and metaphors. Yes, our teachers are doing our children well.................. I know a good many science graduates that can't find work and chemists (with honours) that are sifting dirt for little more than minimum wage. Edited October 10, 2012 by Fletch 27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I think the problem with university is specialization. If we think of what society needs it is a large number of people that can understand and follow the scientific method and be able to write complex ideas coherently and clearly. Society also needs a smaller number of specialists who are extremely good at a narrow field. It makes no sense to push people with no real ability in STEM through STEM degrees since they would not likely be good at the jobs that require these skills. I agree, and it's hard to find a better generalist than a General Arts major. Intelligence, ability to communicate, team focus and drive are great skills - but you can't just pick a degree and expect that everybody with that degree has those skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Absolutely, cybercoma is unable to look critically at OECD ratings and realise that they don't take into consideration important variables you just mentioned. Take a look at a university catalogue today and compare it to one from the fifties. Look at all the nonsense we now offer (all a function of increasing government "investment" in education): women's studies, international development, conflict resolution, African studies, social justice, etc. And we wonder why we're importing professionals with real technical skills. The myth that technical skills are needed doesn't pass muster. There are lots of technical people that can't get hired either. I want to see some numbers please. It sounds like people here are more interested in certificates than degrees. Writing skills are overrated, anyways. We don't need a nation of wordsmiths. Not on here, they're not. People seem to be saying they're useless. Meanwhile every pitch a large company does relies on someone who can write to put together a marketing deck that addresses the customer's needs in a clear way. It's almost like writing an essay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 The myth that technical skills are needed doesn't pass muster. There are lots of technical people that can't get hired either. I want to see some numbers please. It sounds like people here are more interested in certificates than degrees. We've been over the numbers in another thread, where both you and I linked stats showing unemployment rates by various degrees, and saw the clear difference between technical fields and "artsy" fields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 It sounds like people here are more interested in certificates than degrees. No kidding, and how many of these certificates are required by some government agency? Every time you turn around in the marine/shipping industry Transport Canada is requiring more certificates. The next rung up the ladder for me will cost as much as $15 large. TC keeps changing the rules so that vessel owners need to comply with new crewing requirements but I don't see too many willing to pay for the training. They just keep knocking wages down by bringing foreign crews in... Everything is getting increasingly FUBAR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) I agree, and it's hard to find a better generalist than a General Arts major.That is not what I said. Most arts majors don't have the minimum skills in science and math that I see as essential. There is no current degree that provides the generalist education that I see as necessary but a BSc would be closer than a BA. Edited October 10, 2012 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 They just keep knocking wages down by bringing foreign crews in... ...we should consider contracting out our governance...maybe Norwegian sans the fish farms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 That is not what I said. Most arts majors don't have the minimum skills in science and math that I see as essential. There is no current degree that provides the generalist education that I see as necessary but a BSc would be closer than a BA. You hardly ever need more than high school math. I have a math degree and I basically never use it. English skills are used almost every day by almost everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 The myth that technical skills are needed doesn't pass muster. There are lots of technical people that can't get hired either. I want to see some numbers please. It sounds like people here are more interested in certificates than degrees. it's arrogance, everyone thinks what they know is more valuable than the next person's knowledge...certificate vs degree, I don't see any change from when I was young, certificate is okay for quick cash in the short term but long term a degree gives the better return...Not on here, they're not. People seem to be saying they're useless. Meanwhile every pitch a large company does relies on someone who can write to put together a marketing deck that addresses the customer's needs in a clear way. It's almost like writing an essay.agreed and that attitude is arrogant as well, just because someone can put words to paper doesn't make it presentable...to bring in some extra cash my daughter edits research papers for MD's, MD's you think are bright people and can write well but she rewrites their papers cleaning them up, making them clear and concise...being able to write well is a learned skill... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 You hardly ever need more than high school math. I have a math degree and I basically never use it. English skills are used almost every day by almost everyone. a lot of degrees are like that, if you can balance your cheque book that's about all you'll ever need...of all my family members and friends I can only think of two that require anything more than grade school math, one is a research chemist, the other a HVAC engineer ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Its where the degree is from I found out. 4 of my multi-national customers have a "do not hire" in place for applicants from: University of Toronto York university Ottawa university. University of waterloo applicants go right to the top of the pile.... And I went to devry, Mohawk, and laurentian... I missed the mark and wish I investigated a little bit. Too old now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 You hardly ever need more than high school math. I have a math degree and I basically never use it. English skills are used almost every day by almost everyone.The ability to understand higher level math is a measure of ones logical reasoning ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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